Can we live better lives with religion (response to Transcipt)

[Pygoscelis]

Is "Humanism" just another religion? Secularism and atheism is a new global fanaticism.

Humanism is not secularism is not atheism.

Secularism isn't even a stance on religion. You can be a pious religious person (though maybe not a Muslim) and be a secularist. It just means that you want to keep the religion and the state separate. To paraphrase the bible "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's" or something like that. THe idea is to protect both the state and the church from each other. And the church benefits from it just as much as the state does. It means we the people who are not in your religion can't tell you how you must practice it. The fight you and I both wage against bans on hajib etc, is a SECULAR cause. It is a fight to keep the state from interfering with internal religious business.

Atheism is nothing more than the lack of belief in God(s), so atheists can be humanists or they can be nihilists or anything in between. And they are not always secularists, as the atheists among the people pushing the ban on hajib exemplify.

Humanism is a world view much like a religion, though I'm not aware of any strict dogma, holy books, or spiritual leaders. They do have some core beliefs and tenets that they all seem to agree on to define themselves as humanists. Humanism is basically faith in humanity; the belief that human beings are essentially good and that human beings can solve the problems that face the world (without the need for Gods).

 

[ardianto]

Do you think that if religion ceased to exist then there would be nobody to help the homeless or feed the hungry or conduct other charitable works? Do you really think that? If you do then you are viewing the world through a very religious filter and blinding yourself to secular reality.

Greeting and peace be with you Pygoscelis.

I've ever made a thread which I asked question "Without reward, would you give charity?". Yes, I see bad habit among religious people which they help the others not because empathy, but because they expect reward, even reward in the world like give charity because they expect God will help them to pass exam.

I myself help the others because sense of humanity. But to be honest, my belief in God help me to raise my sense of humanity. I got many easiness in my life. But I realize, that's because I was born in wealthy family. I realize, God could make me born as someone else in poor family. And if it's happened, then my life would not as easy like this. It raised consciousness in my heart to help people who are not as lucky as me.

If I don't believe in God, probably I would not realize it. Probably my sense of humanity would not grown up as good as now.

 

[Serinity]

There is no guarantee whether tomorrow, what is legal today, is illegal tomorrow. Mankind is in no position right and wrong. they have no right to tell what is right and what is wrong.

Morality is from Allah SWT. to ignore that and think of yourself as 'evolved'. Is plainly arrogance without bound, to me.

To ignore and not care about the Creator, is arrogant.

We've The Criterion sent to us by Allah SWT, and we'll never obey the kuffar in disobedience to Allah SWT. What is wrong will always stay wrong, what is right will always stay right, regardless of what humans say. Homosexuality, transgenderism, etc. Will always stay wrong. And is wrong,

When the leader of the Kuffar go and deviate, so does the rest of the kuffar. folllowing their desires in arrogance and/ or Ignorance.

 

[Karl]

"Humanism is basically faith in humanity; the belief that human beings are essentially good and that human beings can solve the problems that face the world (without the need for Gods)." Well there is the fatal flaw as people are more evil than good. And they only solve problems by killing each other. So that's why people need gods to give them hope. It is a lot easier to have faith in gods or God than other people. Divinity lifts people out of the pit. What does godlessness do for them? Gives them depression. The atheist says "There is no God so your life of toil and misery and pain has no reward, you will die and rot and be forever in oblivion". How is that going to work? Think of the consequence's. Pushing Godlessness is the worst thing you can do. Why do it, what is the point? Only nefarious reasons I am sure.

 

[Serinity]

It is arrogance, they refuse to bow down and acknowledge Allah SWT as their Lord, and persist in their denial.

Or it is ignorance, in which case, may Allah SWT guide them. Ameen.

but here goes, those militant atheists are so angry at god, they know there is a God, but they choose to deny Him, but their anger and arrogance makes them go against Allah SWT. Much like what Iblees did.

Shaytaan blamed Allah SWT for his hardships, mistakes and problems, the atheists blame Allah SWT for why they're poor, why life's hard, why my family member died, etc. etc.

The atheists delude themselves and others that God doesn't exist. That we men can become 'God.'

Like why would you go in war against Allah SWT? To those who do, a painful doom awaits them, a very painful one. Why would you fight believers in Allah SWT?

If it was possible for Iblees, a once pious one, to get soo corrupt, then what about us?

 

[Pygoscelis]

but here goes, those militant atheists are so angry at god

Nope.

First, atheists tend not to be militant. You don't see too many flying planes into buildings or forming an ISIS equivalent in the name of there being no God. The most militant you'll see atheists get in the name of no-God is mocking your religion, drawing rude cartoons of your prophet, or trying to petition government to ban hajib and stuff like that. Not good, but it doesn't equate to chopping off heads in the name of No-God.

Second, when atheists are upset regarding religion, they are upset at religious people and religion, not at God, which they don't believe exists. It would be rather nonsensical to be angry at something that doesn't exist. It would be like adults being upset at Santa Claus. It isn't God that bothers "militant atheists". It is the religious people and their arrogant and aggressive nature due to belief in God that upsets them. Atheists have been murdered by religious people for being "infidels" or "kafir" for centuries, milenia even... so some of them don't react well to religion.

they know there is a God, but they choose to deny Him

Nope. Why is it so hard for you to understand or accept that there exists people who don't believe what you do? Does it threaten your own faith or something? Why so fragile? You seem to very badly need us all to believe in your God. But sorry, just not the case.

Atheists don't push against your God. They push against the religious believers, and their pushing of religion. It is witch hunts that are concerning, not actual magical witches, which don't exist.

the atheists blame Allah SWT for why they're poor, why life's hard, why my family member died, etc. etc.

If they did, they wouldn't be atheists, by definition. Atheists are people who don't believe Gods exist.

The atheists delude themselves and others that God doesn't exist. That we men can become 'God.'

You keep insisting on the first sentence, but what is with the second? People who don't believe in Gods think the can be Gods? Is this some weird scientology thing you are talking about?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Divinity lifts people out of the pit. What does godlessness do for them? Gives them depression. The atheist says "There is no God so your life of toil and misery and pain has no reward, you will die and rot and be forever in oblivion". How is that going to work? Think of the consequence's. Pushing Godlessness is the worst thing you can do. Why do it, what is the point? Only nefarious reasons I am sure.

Are you saying that religion is the opiate of the masses? That it is better to believe in celestial justice, just for the comfort it provides, regardless of it being a self-delusion? I would prefer to face the truth, even if it is unpleasant, than live in a fantasy.

And let us not pretend that religious belief is all rainbows and puppies. You'd have far fewer anti-religion atheists if it was. But you have the doctrine of hellfire and divine punishment for a wide range of rather arbitrary things ranging from what you eat to who you have sex with to who you are kind to and be friendly towards to what you believe and if you picked the right God. Atheists don't have such concerns. There is literally nothing to fear from death when death is nothingness.

And with only this life to live, it becomes that much more precious and imperative to make life on earth as good as it can be, to help our fellow humans, to develop our ethics beyond what religion would have them be, rather than treating this life like a waiting room or testing ground for something that comes afterwards, or halting moral progress to adhere to something we codified centuries ago.

 

[Pygoscelis]

If I don't believe in God, probably I would not realize it. Probably my sense of humanity would not grown up as good as now.

Could be. But I doubt it. I think you are not giving yourself enough credit. I bet you would have developed your sense of humanity just as well. You would just see it in another context.

I didn't need religion to feel a strong sense of empathy and fairness towards my fellow humans and other animals as well. And not having a religion to tell me what to think or believe, I had to think it through on a much deeper level, and it is very easy for me now to see beyond tribalism and authoritarianism. If somebody tells me something is "wrong" they had better have a good reason, far beyond "because X says so".

 

[Bhabha]

As for the comments on ISIS and the September 11, 2001 (there are two other September 11s that changed history. One was in 1609 when Christian Spain announced the forceful expulsion of Moors from Spain and the atrocities of Chile that were caused by US capitalism interested in the region) the 2001 one was nothing compared to how many people died in the other two. Anyhow, before associating these events to religion, please educate yourself on the political factors that fostered the environment for them in the first place.

Secondly, what you say atheists are doing in terms of mocking Islam, is what Christians did in Spain during the 12th century when they mocked Islam, made rude comments about our prophet, and eventually went to remove the veil.

Don't confuse things Christians did in the times of the crusade for things you assume Muslims are the only ones doing, since you state infidels and kafir, words associated with the Islamic religion. Muslims didn't do witch hunts, it was Christians. Muslims didn't push the religion on anyone (until recently). Please read up on history before transposing the things Christians did during their crusades and during their colonial expansions.

 

[Misbah0411]

Atheists don't push against your God. They push against the religious believers, and their pushing of religion. It is witch hunts that are concerning, not actual magical witches, which don't exist.

Why are you even on this forum? Don't they have atheist forums to spew your nonsense. With over 3800 posts it looks like your the one trying to push your beliefs on the Muslims. Your not convincing bud. Go find something else to do with your time while you wait to meet your Creator.

 

[Serinity]

Idc what you say Pygoscelis, the right path has been made clear from the wrong, whosoever desires to meet their Lord, let him seek Him, whosoever deviates, only deviates at the expense of their own soul.

you don't harm Allah SWT, but you harm yourselves, you call us deluded, but you are deluded.

Is the one who walks erect on the straight path the same as the one who walks on their face? No.

Islam is the Truth, The Light, the straight path. It has no mysteries - it is clear. But those who follow their desires and lusts are in a great confusion.

Those who mix falsehood with truth, are in confusion, those who try to to erase Truth, Al-Islam, by falsehood and their imagination is in even a greater deviation and delusion - deluded by shaytaan, following in his footsteps. you are only inventing falsehoods against Islam, to bring it down, but if you don't desist in ridiculing Islam by your falsehood, you'll be encompassed by what you used to ridicule.

For verily those who ridicule Islam, either by ridiculing the muslims, the laws, etc. they'll be encompassed by what they used to ridicule.

you see us deluded, but in fact, you are the one deluded, in confusion of what is false and true.

But nay, truth will prevail over falsehood, sooner or later. For what is false is bound to collapse before Truth.

Those who disbelieve in the Truth, Al-Islam, is in a confused state. They then go over to manmade laws, etc.

But if one turns to Allah SWT, they'll find Him SWT Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Islam came to clarify to man, right from wrong, truth from falsehood. Idk your heart, but the fact that you are soo confused about what is true and what is not true, just shows your confused state. You wander in doubt thinking "how do we know Islam is truth?" and here you await a sign, but isn't there enough signs for those who give insight?

Make no mistake - if you fight the Muslims, you are at WAR with Allah SWT. And don't play games with me, I know many atheists who want to kill muslims because of their hatred for Islam. Why do atheists go to war to fight the Muslims?

Why? To Erase Islam, by bringing their kufr system into place. Why do atheists fight? They are fighting a losing battle from the start.

They seek to erase the light of Islam, but Allah SWT refuses, except to perfect His Light. (an ayat)

 

[Serinity]

Those upon the Fitrah will recognize Islam, and its Light.

Those who persist in their deviation and goes far away from the Quran, and don't turn, will find it harder to see the truth.

The Truth is Islam, the One and Only truth, the reality. No ifs or buts about it.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Make no mistake - if you fight the Muslims, you are at WAR with Allah SWT. And don't play games with me, I know many atheists who want to kill muslims because of their hatred for Islam. Why do atheists go to war to fight the Muslims?

First, I think this is mostly in your imagination. I have never heard of an atheist killing somebody over a cartoon or intentionally flying a plane into a building or chopping off heads because of their staunch belief that there is no God.

When Atheists, as well as Christians, as well as other non-muslims speak nasty things against Muslims and do nasty things to Muslims, it isn't about Allah. It is about the Muslims themselves. It is xenophobia/tribalism (seeing Islam s the new other; the old was communism) combined with misperceptions of Muslims due to behavior of a few Muslims that gets sensationalized. That's where the chopping off heads, flying planes into buildings and murder over cartoons come in.

 

[Karl]

Are you saying that religion is the opiate of the masses? That it is better to believe in celestial justice, just for the comfort it provides, regardless of it being a self-delusion? I would prefer to face the truth, even if it is unpleasant, than live in a fantasy.

And let us not pretend that religious belief is all rainbows and puppies. You'd have far fewer anti-religion atheists if it was. But you have the doctrine of hellfire and divine punishment for a wide range of rather arbitrary things ranging from what you eat to who you have sex with to who you are kind to and be friendly towards to what you believe and if you picked the right God. Atheists don't have such concerns. There is literally nothing to fear from death when death is nothingness.

And with only this life to live, it becomes that much more precious and imperative to make life on earth as good as it can be, to help our fellow humans, to develop our ethics beyond what religion would have them be, rather than treating this life like a waiting room or testing ground for something that comes afterwards, or halting moral progress to adhere to something we codified centuries ago.

"Are you saying that religion is the opiate of the masses?" "Religion is the opium of the people" that's what Karl Marx said, but he was wrong. Religion gives people positive hope and a spiritual lift to transcend their primeval form.

"That it is better to believe in celestial justice, just for the comfort it provides, regardless of it being a self-delusion?"

What are your delusions? To follow the whims of the godless mob, to change laws and morality to a degenerate nature because it is some radical "modern" Anti Christ United Nations way and try and shove it down our throats.

"I would prefer to face the truth, even if it is unpleasant, than live in a fantasy".

What do you know IS the truth? You believe in your beliefs and others have theirs.

"And let us not pretend that religious belief is all rainbows and puppies. You'd have far fewer anti-religion atheists if it was. But you have the doctrine of hellfire and divine punishment for a wide range of rather arbitrary things ranging from what you eat to who you have sex with to who you are kind to and be friendly towards to what you believe and if you picked the right God. Atheists don't have such concerns. There is literally nothing to fear from death when death is nothingness".

Well so do the Atheists, they have even more oppressive bigotry, rules and regulations and they are constantly increasing them globally.

"And with only this life to live, it becomes that much more precious and imperative to make life on earth as good as it can be, to help our fellow humans, to develop our ethics beyond what religion would have them be, rather than treating this life like a waiting room or testing ground for something that comes afterwards, or halting moral progress to adhere to something we codified centuries ago".

Why? If you only have this life, wouldn't it be better to live it in the pursuit of pleasure than to badger us with your Anti Christ propaganda? Or are you getting paid for doing this?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Well so do the Atheists, they have even more oppressive bigotry, rules and regulations and they are constantly increasing them globally.

We'll have to agree to disagree on who has the more oppressive bigotry, rules and regulations (atheists are still a tiny minority and lack such power).

But even if atheists did engage in more oppressive bigotry, rules and regulations as you say, not having them hitched to unquestionable dogma means you can reason with them, and demand that they justify their positions with some sort of argument beyond "because God says so".

 

[Karl]

We'll have to agree to disagree on who has the more oppressive bigotry, rules and regulations (atheists are still a tiny minority and lack such power).

But even if atheists did engage in more oppressive bigotry, rules and regulations as you say, not having them hitched to unquestionable dogma means you can reason with them, and demand that they justify their positions with some sort of argument beyond "because God says so".

Ok what about the secular dogma of the age of 18. And all the age related restrictions. This form of bigotry is extreme, everyone is defined by age. This is totally subjective and irrational but atheists believe in it. To restrict someone because of their age is no different than restricting them by race or gender, it is pure prejudice. Islam does not do this, all restrictions are for objective reasons.
I do not believe that atheists are low in number because there are many that call themselves Christians and Muslims etc. that are really crypto Marxists. Even the pope is a Marxist.

 

[Pygoscelis]

The age of 18 isnt an atheist thing. Why would you think that? It is just one of many arbitrary age cutoffs that societies use. I am fairly certain most of these ages were chosen by Christians where I live, but I dont link it to religion.

The idea is that under a certain level of development (both physical andnin mental maturity) children are not able to understand and make some decisions for themselves. The actual point people become mature enough varies from person to person of course, and the numbers that are put into law are just used for the sake of consistency and uniformity so the laws can function.

You may know a 14 year old that hit puberty early and thinks and functions more maturely than most adults, but it is still illegal to let her drive your car and sex with her is still statutory rape.

That has nothing to do with atheism, and although Christians wrote those rules, probably has nothing to do with Christianity either. And I see absolutely no reason from lacking God belief why Atheists would be particularly adverse to changing the numbers up or down.

Oh, and the pope being an atheist is a funny thought.

 

[Eric H]

greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

Is this a serious question or are you trolling? Do you think that if religion ceased to exist then there would be nobody to help the homeless or feed the hungry or conduct other charitable works? Do you really think that? If you do then you are viewing the world through a very religious filter and blinding yourself to secular reality.

I was talking more about the charitable schemes in our town, The council and the police often make appeals for volunteers through our local churches. I was at a council training day recently, they were advising disabled people were they can go for help, and churches were mentioned a couple of times.

I have been involved in helping homeless people, often they do not tick all the boxes to get help through our local council and benefit service. The council then recommend these people to get support finding jobs and housing through church schemes, there do not appear to be any secular schemes on offer in our town.

A homeless shelter is being opened in our town in the next couple of weeks, funded by churches and most of the volunteers are from churches too.

Consider the history and culture of the area you speak of when you see all of the religious charities you speak of. Are these people helping others because their religion tells them to, or are they helping others because they know it is the right thing to do?

I think a bit of both, if some people need encouraging to help others, why would this be bad? I meet a lot of youngsters out of work, I try and encourage them to do voluntary work, whilst they are looking for paid work.

When we are out with the Street Pastors, sometimes people offer us money when we have helped them. I decline the money, but ask them instead, to be kind to a random stranger, and pass the kindness on.

A good litmus test would be to look and see if they help people not of their religion as much as those of their religion.

Agreed, and the voluntary work I enjoy the most, is when different churches work together for the common good. I would also like to see a greater interfaith cooperation in charity work.

In the absence of such charities, secular ones would pop up very quickly to fill the void.

My experience of starting up charitable schemes has involved a lot of people, money and resources. Religion, by its very nature has lots of people and structure.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis; I think the big problem for mankind is, how do we seek justice for all people?

First, atheists tend not to be militant. You don't see too many flying planes into buildings

And Mr Bush's response was God bless America, then he bombed Afghanistan and Iraq. It seems Mr Bush ignored the two greatest commandments to love God and neighbour, he overlooked loving and praying for your enemy, so I ask, why would God then bless America.

In the search for justice after 9/ 11, Mr Bush did not restrict his search to hunting down the few people responsible, he caused the death of tens of thousands. There are many conflicting numbers of war casualties, but possibly there could be 50 Iraqi and Afghan deaths for each of the three thousand killed on 9 / 11. This is not my idea of justice.

or forming an ISIS equivalent

So if you lived in Iraq, your house had been destroyed, your son had been killed and you became one of the two million refugees that fled Iraq, would you just sit back and be happy? Don't look at religion being the problem, look at the injustice that happens. How will these ordinary people ever get justice for the deaths, loss of home, jobs and all the social infrastructure that they had before.

You could blame Saddam for all the injustice he did, but that would only be justifiable if we had not interfered. Our invasion puts most of the blame on America and its allies.

The most militant you'll see atheists get in the name of no-God is mocking your religion, drawing rude cartoons of your prophet,

If somebody publicly mocked your mother, wife and children in the same way, you might sit back and take it on the chin. But I can imagine some people becoming violent, if their wife, mother and children were publically ridiculed by rude cartoons.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

 

[Karl]

The age of 18 isnt an atheist thing. Why would you think that? It is just one of many arbitrary age cutoffs that societies use. I am fairly certain most of these ages were chosen by Christians where I live, but I dont link it to religion.

The idea is that under a certain level of development (both physical andnin mental maturity) children are not able to understand and make some decisions for themselves. The actual point people become mature enough varies from person to person of course, and the numbers that are put into law are just used for the sake of consistency and uniformity so the laws can function.

You may know a 14 year old that hit puberty early and thinks and functions more maturely than most adults, but it is still illegal to let her drive your car and sex with her is still statutory rape.

That has nothing to do with atheism, and although Christians wrote those rules, probably has nothing to do with Christianity either. And I see absolutely no reason from lacking God belief why Atheists would be particularly adverse to changing the numbers up or down.

Oh, and the pope being an atheist is a funny thought.

There is nothing in the Bible about these age restrictions. They have come about by the progressive socialism of cultural Marxism which is atheist. These restrictions are pushed by the United Nations which is atheist. No true Christian could make these laws. The Soviet Union was heavily steeped in age restrictions mentality. In Christendom and Islam it is up to the father to decide any age restrictions (if any) imposed on his offspring. For a State to have age restrictions is socialist in attitude and most certainly a violation of parental sovereignty.