China Nobel Row

So people should not point out injustice if it happens in another
country?

Pointing out and actually getting involved are two different things. I'm talking about actually getting involved in another countries internal affairs. What do you mean by injustice?

For example, in Saudi Arabia, they carry out public executions. Some people say that is barbaric while some Saudi citizens say it is justice and helps to deter crimes.

All countries have their own problems. How can western countries be in any position to resolve internal affairs of other countries when it cannot even resolve its own problems? Let the people of those countries resolve their own problems, they are the best people for the job.

You would not like it if Saudi Arabia began to get involved in your countries internal affairs.
 
Pointing out and actually getting involved are two different things. I'm talking about actually getting involved in another countries internal affairs. What do you mean by injustice?

The Nobel Prize is nothing more than them pointing out a situation. Why is it that you have a problem with that?

As for countries getting involved in other countries internal affairs, were you upset when the OIC asked the UN to impose sanctions on Denmark because of the cartoons? How about when the US government said that France's ban on the hijab was a violation of human rights? And should those other countries stop trying to put pressure on Israel since what they are doing is, in effect, trying to get involved in their internal affairs?

As for what I mean by injustice, I don't believe someone should be jailed for writing a petition asking the government to change the way they do things. The man did not call for violence, he did not call for rebellion, and he did not call for an overthrow. He simply asked the Chinese to change their constitution to allow more freedom and was arrested for it. That is an injustice.
 
Thats because they can't. They don't possess the political or economic leverage that the western world has.

That makes it right? If country A has the money and the power it should oppress other countries simply becasue it has economic and political power???
 
The Nobel Prize is nothing more than them pointing out a situation. Why is it that you have a problem with that?

Did I say I have a problem with the Nobel Prize? It means nothing to me. I suspect, at times, there is a motive behind it. The Nobel Peace Prize lacks credibility in my opinion, especially if it is awarded by countries that start wars, impose sanctions and torture suspects.

As for countries getting involved in other countries internal affairs, were you upset when the OIC asked the UN to impose sanctions on Denmark because of the cartoons?

I have a problem with that. Sanctions affect the entire country. Why punish the citizens of Denmark for one's man stupidity?

I would like evidence for this, I doubt the UN would impose sanctions over the cartoon. I'm suspecting UN was motivated by national security issues.

How about when the US government said that France's ban on the hijab was a violation of human rights?

That is not actually getting involved but one country expressing its disagreement with another country. France is a member of the European Union, and must comply with the European Conventions on Human Rights. France currently has an issue with Article 9: freedom of conscience.

Source

And should those other countries stop trying to put pressure on Israel since what they are doing is, in effect, trying to get involved in their internal affairs?

Israel claims to respect international law, therefore they should try to uphold it. I'm not sure if they have signed the Geneva Convention on Human Rights...

The dispute between Palestinians and Israelis is not a internal dispute. It affects other countries too. This conflict is one of the reasons why US was attacked on 9/11. Other countries national interests will be affected by his conflict, so I do think they can get involved.

As for what I mean by injustice, I don't believe someone should be jailed for writing a petition asking the government to change the way they do things. The man did not call for violence, he did not call for rebellion, and he did not call for an overthrow. He simply asked the Chinese to change their constitution to allow more freedom and was arrested for it. That is an injustice.

This is for the Chinese people to deal with. None of us have been to China or understand their problems. Therefore, the Chinese citizens have to deal with this problem. No regime will last forever.
 
The Nobel Peace Prize lacks credibility in my opinion, especially if it is awarded by countries that start wars, impose sanctions and torture suspects.

It is awarded by Norway, which I don't recall starting any wars or being accused of torture recently.
I would like evidence for this, I doubt the UN would impose sanctions over the cartoon. I'm suspecting UN was motivated by national security issues.

It is public knowledge that the OIC asked for the UN to punish Denmark. The UN did not, though.
I have a problem with that. Sanctions affect the entire country. Why punish the citizens of Denmark for one's man stupidity?

Then what about the calls from other countries for the cartoonist to be prosecuted. Certainly that is butting into the internal affairs of another country.
That is not actually getting involved but one country expressing its disagreement with another country.

So is the Nobel Prize, in a fashion.

Israel claims to respect international law, therefore they should try to uphold it. I'm not sure if they have signed the Geneva Convention on Human Rights...

They did sign it, but claim it does not cover their situation. Therefore, according to your logic, it is an internal matter and no other countries have the right to try and change it.
The dispute between Palestinians and Israelis is not a internal dispute. It affects other countries too. This conflict is one of the reasons why US was attacked on 9/11. Other countries national interests will be affected by his conflict, so I do think they can get involved.

It only affects other countries because they want to get involved in Israels internal affairs.

This is for the Chinese people to deal with. None of us have been to China or understand their problems. Therefore, the Chinese citizens have to deal with this problem. No regime will last forever.

So it is your opinion that if, say, the United States decided one day to round up all the Muslims in the country and throw them in jail or even execute them that the rest of the world should stay mute on the subject since it is an internal affair?

I think your real issue is your intense dislike of the fact that it is Western powers that wield, by far, the most influence in the world.
 
It is awarded by Norway, which I don't recall starting any wars or being accused of torture recently.

Are you sure?

It has been involved in wars.

It is public knowledge that the OIC asked for the UN to punish Denmark. The UN did not, though.

I would still like to see evidence for this.

Then what about the calls from other countries for the cartoonist to be prosecuted. Certainly that is butting into the internal affairs of another country.

Source?

So is the Nobel Prize, in a fashion.

I never had a problem with this prize, I think it is a bit of joke. China should have ignored it.

They did sign it.

Then Israel must act according to the Geneva Conventions on Human Rights. If it does not, then other countries should pressure Israel to act according to the Geneva Conventions on Human Rights.

The Palestinian and Israeli conflict is not a internal dispute, it is a international dispute, and the countries that have been affected, should be allowed to get involved.

It only affects other countries because they want to get involved in Israels internal affairs.

True but Israel wants some countries like the US to get involved because it needs their support.

So it is your opinion that if, say, the United States decided one day to round up all the Muslims in the country and throw them in jail or even execute them that the rest of the world should stay mute on the subject since it is an internal affair?

I admit, that would be an exception.

I think your real issue is your intense dislike of the fact that it is Western powers that wield, by far, the most influence in the world.

How do you know what I like dislike? I doubt you possess the ability to read my mind. I even live in a western country. I dislike it when countries start wars, kill innocent civilians and torture suspects. America has tortured suspects, committed massacres and so on. So I dislike its foreign policy. You should learn to accept that.
 
Then Israel must act according to the Geneva Conventions on Human Rights. If it does not, then other countries should pressure Israel to act according to the Geneva Conventions on Human Rights.

I'm fairly certain that the Geneva convention only applies to prisoners of war, which enemy combatants are not.


True but Israel wants some countries like the US to get involved because it needs their support
While Israel enjoys the support of much of the world, it does not need it now that they are a nuclear power.
 
While Israel enjoys the support of much of the world, it does not need it now that they are a nuclear power.

I'm prety sure Isreal does not enjoy support much of the world - Its quite clear from UN nation resolution 242 that the US gives Isreal most of the support and the US isnt most of the world - its one country.

China, Russia, Africa and some countries in europe are not fans of Isreal as well - majority of the world is against the west bank and Gaza occupation and the take over of east Jerusalem.
 
I'm fairly certain that the Geneva convention only applies to prisoners of war, which enemy combatants are not.

Of course they aren't. The 'enemy combatant' thing was dreamed up to avoid having to treat them as prisoners of war. As far as I'm aware, though, only the Americans have used the tag to hide behind, not the Israelis. The whole thing is ludicrous; if a captured 'enemy combatant' isn't a PoW then what the heck is?!
 
While Israel enjoys the support of much of the world, it does not need it now that they are a nuclear power.

I think many countries are neutral. The EU and the USA are ones that support Israel.

Israel does have nuclear weapons but it cannot solve all its problems It could not handle the fire and is unable to get rid of Hezbollah.
 
[QUOTE
]It is awarded by Norway, which I don't recall starting any wars or being accused of torture recently.
Are you sure?

It has been involved in wars.[/QUOTE]

Like I said,they have not started any wars or been accused of torture that I am aware of.
I would still like to see evidence for this.

Source

Source

The OIC Secretary General expressed his dismay and disappointment at the release of the book despite the fact that he and some other leaders of the Muslim countries had personally addressed letters to the Foreign Minister of Denmark urging the intervention of the Danish government against the publication due to the highly provocative and inciting contents of the book.

In other words multiple Muslim countries attempted to interfere in the internal policies of Denmark.

The Palestinian and Israeli conflict is not a internal dispute, it is a international dispute, and the countries that have been affected, should be allowed to get involved.

It is not international, it is internal. It is only international in the sense that other Muslim countries are upset about it. The issue only involves Israel and its territories, therefore should be considered internal.

How do you know what I like dislike? I doubt you possess the ability to read my mind.

Based on what you post I make assumptions. You said "I think some western countries should not get involved in other countries internal affairs."

You limited your scope to Western countries, not to all countries. You later admit that Muslims being persecuted in my example would be an exception and give flimsy excuses why France banning the hijab and the Israeli/Palestinian do allow for external action.

You limit your criticism to Western countries, and then make exceptions when Muslims are being persecuted. I made an assumption based strictly on what you have posted.

If you want to clarify your statements then feel free, but based strictly on what you have posted you are inconsistent, to put it mildly.

I dislike it when countries start wars, kill innocent civilians and torture suspects. America
has tortured suspects, committed massacres and so on. So I dislike its foreign policy. You should learn to accept that.

I accept that you don't like American foreign policy. I disagree with much of it myself.

My issue with you on this topic is that you say you have a belief that countries should not get involved in the internal affairs of other countries, yet every single thing you have said indicates that you don't truly believe it.
 
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It is not international, it is internal. It is only international in the sense that other Muslim countries are upset about it. The issue only involves Israel and its territories, therefore should be considered internal.

You might want to research the history of that conflict. The Jordanians and Lebanese in particular have very good reasons not to regard it as 'internal'.
 
Like I said,they have not started any wars or been accused of torture that I am aware of.

Norway is involved in the Afghanistan war, clearly supporting the US foreign policy.

Source

Source

The OIC Secretary General expressed his dismay and disappointment at the release of the book despite the fact that he and some other leaders of the Muslim countries had personally addressed letters to the Foreign Minister of Denmark urging the intervention of the Danish government against the publication due to the highly provocative and inciting contents of the book.

In other words multiple Muslim countries attempted to interfere in the internal policies of Denmark.

Through letters? I will address this issue towards the end.

Based on what you post I make assumptions. You said "I think some western countries should not get involved in other countries internal affairs."

Of course. It is western countries that I can see getting involved in other countries' domestic affairs most of the time. How can western countries attempt to resolve other countries' problems when it cannot solve its own problems?

You later admit that Muslims being persecuted in my example would be an exception

There is exceptions to everything. My general principle is countries do not get involved in other countries domestic affairs, with the exceptions of mass murder.

There is nothing wrong with countries simply communicating with each other.

give flimsy excuses why France banning the hijab

France is a member of the European Union. It must act according to the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), otherwise, it has to think twice about its membership with the EU. The EU is allowed to get involved in France or any other country that is part of the EU domestic affairs.

Turkey has banned the Niqaab but this problem is for the Turkish people. It has not signed any legislation nor it is part of a group to uphold certain values.

the Israeli/Palestinian do allow for external action.

Yes because it will affect other countries national interests. You can do some reading about the conflict:

ifAmericansknew

You limit your criticism to Western countries,

These countries are powerful and are able to get involved in other countries domestic affairs.

then make exceptions when Muslims are being persecuted.

Well mass murder of any group.

My issue with you on this topic is that you say you have a belief that countries should not get involved in the internal affairs of other countries, yet every single thing you have said indicates that you don't truly believe it.

Fine, I will make myself clear.

It is some western countries such as the US and Britain, that attempt to get involved in other countries' domestic affairs. I focused on these countries because they have the power and resources to get involved. Like I said before, I doubt western countries can resolve other countries' domestic affairs because it cannot resolve its own domestic problems.

There are problems all over the world but the US is always interested in particular countries in the Middle East. The US exploits the problems within those countries such as women rights to gain public support and then gets involved due to some other reason. This is not helping the problem but makes it worse.

What do I mean by getting involved? I'm referring to wars, sanctions and pressure to the extent where the government of that country is obeying other countries, not its own people.

I'm not saying countries should not allowed to communicate through letters or meetings. Countries should be allowed to express their disagreements with other countries and diplomacy is the best way to understand other countries' problems.

The only time I can see where a country should be allowed to get involved in another countries' internal affairs is when there is mass murder of a particular group. Also, when a country has signed up to be a member of a organisation (e.g. EU) or signed a legislation (e.g. non-nuclear proliferation treaty or ECHR) or there is a issue where other countries' national interests are affected.
 
Of course they aren't. The 'enemy combatant' thing was dreamed up to avoid having to treat them as prisoners of war. As far as I'm aware, though, only the Americans have used the tag to hide behind, not the Israelis. The whole thing is ludicrous; if a captured 'enemy combatant' isn't a PoW then what the heck is?!

Well the Geneva convention only applies to uniformed soldiers, which terrorist are not. I don't know what else to say.
 

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