Christian Trinity and Muslim's Tauwheed [monotheism] = Same God? A Clarification.

[Grace Seeker]

The truth may always exist but people may not realize it.
For example, say people all of a sudden started comparing eating the Eucharist to cannibalism. You as a Christian may want to refute those claims and put some energy into that too. I know that some debates are trivial but some are very important and to see two respected intellectuals put their arguments for all too see and hopefully for one idea to emerge is the meaning of a true debate. I have heard of people who have converted once the facts are laid out for them and both views are side by side.

I agree that the idea that putting one's ideas out there for others to hear and compare side by side is of value. I also agree one way to do that is in the form of a debate. I still disagree that truth can be determined simply by determining who "wins" a debate:

By the way, the only way to determine truth would be to debate it.

If you look at history, I think you will end up agreeing with me that this is a poor way to determine what is truth. For instance, in the 4th century, there was a debate within the Church over the question of Jesus' divinity. That debate was "won" by those who affirm it. Yet, as a Muslim, surely you would say that the winning position is not true. Hence, if you still hold to the idea you originally presented that one can determine truth by having a debate and seeing who wins it, then you would have to hold that Jesus' divinity is true, for that is the side which won that debate. And if you reject that as true, then you will ultimately agree with me that we don't determine truth (but at best attempt to explore it) by means of debate.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Now open your heart and let Allah SWT Speak to you....

O you who believe [in Musa (Moses) (i.e. Jews) and 'Iesa (Jesus) (i.e. Christians)]! Fear Allah, and believe too in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), He will give you a double portion of His Mercy, and He will give you a light by which you shall walk (straight), and He will forgive you. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Al-Hadid 57:28)

From a Christian perspective you border on blasphemy when you pretend that Allah speaks to us from the Qur'an. Even if Allah did speak to Muhammad, we have no basis for excepting any words that run contrary to the revelation of God made known to us in and through Jesus Christ as revealed in our scriptures.

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! (Galatians 1:6-8)

 

[SixTen]

I dont agree with the notion that christians and muslims worship the same God.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

So the translator is telling us that God had a legal marriage in which an offspring was created?

Keep in mind, the verses are also against polytheists who worship gods that resemble zeus etc who had wifes and sex with humans and ther gods.

Some verses pertain to Christianity but moreover the verses rail against polytheists.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I agree that the idea that putting one's ideas out there for others to hear and compare side by side is of value. I also agree one way to do that is in the form of a debate. I still disagree that truth can be determined simply by determining who "wins" a debate:

If you look at history, I think you will end up agreeing with me that this is a poor way to determine what is truth. For instance, in the 4th century, there was a debate within the Church over the question of Jesus' divinity. That debate was "won" by those who affirm it. Yet, as a Muslim, surely you would say that the winning position is not true. Hence, if you still hold to the idea you originally presented that one can determine truth by having a debate and seeing who wins it, then you would have to hold that Jesus' divinity is true, for that is the side which won that debate. And if you reject that as true, then you will ultimately agree with me that we don't determine truth (but at best attempt to explore it) by means of debate.

Again, I was talking about the ideal debate. Debating with altered material or with improper evidence will yield improper results.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

This is a peculiar verse:
And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden? 5:116

It seems the author of the Quran wasn't familiar with the teachings of mainstream Christianity..

I think that it is referring tot he fact that christians sometimes pray to Mary (pbuh) or Jesus (pbuh) for stuff. Like some people pray to saiints, when in reality these people were only human and cannot grant you things. Only Allah can. You pray to him and not Mary/Jesus (pbuh).

 

[MustafaMc]

I dont agree with the notion that christians and muslims worship the same God.

So, do you not believe that Muslims worship the One God that Jesus also worshipped as in the "Lord's Prayer" - Whom he referred to in the Bible as "Father"?

 

[AntiKarateKid]

So, do you not believe that Muslims worship the One God that Jesus also worshipped as in the "Lord's Prayer" - Whom he referred to in the Bible as "Father"?

What the prayer was originally mean is NOW said to include man god Isa.

Christianity with trinity. No.
Christianity without trinity. yes.

 

[MustafaMc]

What the prayer was originally mean is NOW said to include man god Isa.

The Lord's Prayer does not have ANY reference to Jesus (as). This was how Jesus (as) taught his disciples to pray - not to him, not to Mary, not to the saints, but rather to "Our Father in Heaven".

Matthew 6:9-13
Our Father which art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

The Lord's Prayer does not have ANY reference to Jesus (as). This was how Jesus (as) taught his disciples to pray - not to him, not to Mary, not to the saints, but rather to "Our Father in Heaven".

Matthew 6:9-13
Our Father which art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.

Sorry I think my bad grammar messed that lest sentence up. I meant what you said. I forgot that it only said "our father".

 

[Grace Seeker]

Many Christians mistakenly assume that the sacred Quran is referring to the trinity concept (father, son, holy ghost) in this blessed ayah. However, this is not necessarily the case. As you may know many Christians, especially the Catholic sect, worship and pray to Mary, and along with Jesus (alaihi salatu wa salam) they have become two objects of devotion in orthodox Christianity.
In essence, Muslims, Christians, and Jews are devoted to the same God, the Mighty God of Abraham (alaihi salam), but the other religions have mistaken notions about God. Christians also believe Jesus (alaihi salam) is the begotten son of God, which Islam considers a violation of monotheism.

Actually, I don't know this to be true. I know that many people make this assessment of both Catholic and Orthodox Christians, but I have never meant either a Catholic or an Orthodox Christian who actually thought of Mary as a divine personage. No doubt if you look hard enough for it you will find such, but I don't think that such aberrations are indicative of those two groups on the whole.


But I think that is a small part of what you were saying. I would like to affirm a part of your final paragraph and then ask a question of your last comment. the part I want to affirm is:

Muslims, Christians, and Jews are devoted to the same God, the Mighty God of Abraham (alaihi salam), but the other religions have mistaken notions about God.

I think we could all, from the perspective of our own traditions, say this --perhaps in exactly those words.

Regarding your final comment:

Christians also believe Jesus (alaihi salam) is the begotten son of God, which Islam considers a violation of monotheism.

It is true that Christians believe Jesus is the son of God. And as you say, Islam considers this belief a violation of monotheism. My question has to do with the term "begotten", what do you understand is meant by that term? I ask, because I wonder if perhaps Muslims and Christians have different definitions of what it means to say that Jesus is the "begotten" son of God? If so, then don't we need to seek to understand each other's meaning before reject it as being false? So, what is your definition of "begotten" as you understand Christians to apply it to Jesus?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Again, I was talking about the ideal debate. Debating with altered material or with improper evidence will yield improper results.

It sounds like you only consider something a debate when the conclusions have already been conceeded away at the beginning. That might make for a nice forum discussion of like minded folks, but would hardly make for a true debate.

For myself I would agrue that the accuracy of the Biblical accounts of Jesus' life are more reliable than the version recorded in the Qur'an. But you see it just the opposite. Of course, the accusation that the other depends on altered material and improper evidence does not in itself make it true. So, how does one establish what is and is not reliable? The process for making that determination is every bit as important as what is determined. One needs to find a process that is acceptable to all involved or one cannot have a true debate to begin with.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

I think that it is referring tot he fact that christians sometimes pray to Mary (pbuh) or Jesus (pbuh) for stuff. Like some people pray to saiints, when in reality these people were only human and cannot grant you things. Only Allah can. You pray to him and not Mary/Jesus (pbuh).

That's an option, but I think its wrong, due to reasons previously stated by me and Grace Seeker.

 

[MustafaMc]

That's an option, but I think its wrong, due to reasons previously stated by me and Grace Seeker.

What matters is not whether you or we think that we are right, but rather how Allah (swt) sees it. We believe that the Qur'an is the literal Word of Allah and it says that Christians worship Jesus and Mary (peace be upon them) along with the One God, Allah. This is shirk, or ascribing partners to Allah, and it is the unforgivable sin if one dies in that state of disbelief.

 

[Grace Seeker]

What matters is not whether you or we think that we are right, but rather how Allah (swt) sees it. We believe that the Qur'an is the literal Word of Allah and it says that Christians worship Jesus and Mary (peace be upon them) along with the One God, Allah. This is shirk, or ascribing partners to Allah, and it is the unforgivable sin if one dies in that state of disbelief.

This assumes that your beliefs regarding the Qur'an being the literal word of Allah are true. Thus you can assert that even if Catholics don't believe they are worshipping Mary, that because Allah said so they in fact are.

Another possibility, is that Catholics are able to speak for themselves more accurately than anyone else, and that if the Qur'an asserts that what Catholic's do is to worship Mary when they in fact don't, then it must be in error; thus proving that it isn't the literal word of Allah as you believe it to be.

I guess, based on logic alone, there is another option, which would be that the Qur'an is the literal words of Allah, but that Allah doesn't always speak the truth. But, I'm not willing to concede that as a reasonable option, even if it does follow from a purely logical standpoint.

 

[coddles76]

From a Christian perspective you border on blasphemy when you pretend that Allah speaks to us from the Qur'an. Even if Allah did speak to Muhammad, we have no basis for excepting any words that run contrary to the revelation of God made known to us in and through Jesus Christ as revealed in our scriptures.

From a Muslims perspective these are the words of Allah SWT and never will I fear to express these words because the words of Allah SWT will never be exhausted. And with all due respect not even you can prevent the words of the almighty if though you reject it.

Say (O Muhammad SAW to mankind). "If the sea were ink for (writing) the Words of my Lord, surely, the sea would be exhausted before the Words of my Lord would be finished, even if we brought (another sea) like it for its aid." (Al-Kahf 18:109)


And (remember) when Allah said: "O 'Iesa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you [of the forged statement that 'Iesa (Jesus) is Allah's son] of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you (Monotheists, who worship none but Allah) superior to those who disbelieve [in the Oneness of Allah, or disbelieve in some of His Messengers, e.g. Muhammad SAW, 'Iesa (Jesus), Musa (Moses), etc., or in His Holy Books, e.g. the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), the Qur'an] till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute." (Aali Imran 3:55)

 

[coddles76]

So the translator is telling us that God had a legal marriage in which an offspring was created?

No the christians main belief is that GOD begot a Son. How does one beget?

 

[AntiKarateKid]

This assumes that your beliefs regarding the Qur'an being the literal word of Allah are true. Thus you can assert that even if Catholics don't believe they are worshipping Mary, that because Allah said so they in fact are.

Another possibility, is that Catholics are able to speak for themselves more accurately than anyone else, and that if the Qur'an asserts that what Catholic's do is to worship Mary when they in fact don't, then it must be in error; thus proving that it isn't the literal word of Allah as you believe it to be.

I guess, based on logic alone, there is another option, which would be that the Qur'an is the literal words of Allah, but that Allah doesn't always speak the truth. But, I'm not willing to concede that as a reasonable option, even if it does follow from a purely logical standpoint.

Your argument rests on a very narrow definition of 'god'.

Here is a prayer TOWARD Mary

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this, our exile, show us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!


Here is another MORE STRIKING ONE

My Queen, My Mother, I offer
myself entirely to Thee.
And to show my devotion to Thee,
I offer Thee this day, my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as Thy property and possession.
Amen


As far as a Muslim is concerned, I belong to God not Mary and ask God to guide me and my property and possession. Mary has no power to do this and prayers should be directed at Alllah not his servants.

You are praying to Mary or "crying unto her" and asking for mercy from her. The usage of god has a wider meaning than you are claiming.


Furthermore, don't act like this accusation of Mary worship is new and from Muslims only.

http://www.abcog.org/mary3.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15459a.htm

Just a teeny bit of what can be found about Christians leveling this accusation against other Christians.

The fact is that your argument rests on a very narrow interpretation of what is referred to as god in the Quran.

 

[Keltoi]

No the christians main belief is that GOD begot a Son. How does one beget?

You are only asking the right question if you ask "What do you mean by "the only begotten Son of God?" I'll start by explaining what that doesn't mean. It does not mean God physically produced a child through human sexual intercourse. That is blasphemy. Nor does it mean that Christ, the Son of God, is a separate being that was "produced" by God.

The Christian belief is that Christ, the Son of God, is God incarnate in human flesh. The term "begotten" is an English translation of the Greek word monogenes which is more accurately described as "unique" or "only". In fact, the word begotten isn't even used in the newer translations for the reason stated above.

 

[coddles76]

The Christian belief is that Christ, the Son of God, is God incarnate in human flesh. The term "begotten" is an English translation of the Greek word monogenes which is more accurately described as "unique" or "only". In fact, the word begotten isn't even used in the newer translations for the reason stated above.

Yes thankyou for that clarification and confirmation on translations. I guess that settles that point about translators.

I also thankyou for also clarifying that the son of God is not really the son of god but is God himself. I won't go into how illogical and contradictory that sounds, I'll just let the readers of the thread work that out for themselves and draw there own conclusions but I will say they this so people can ponder a little.....
So John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Is meaning that God came to earth incarnate, walked along, talked, preached, gave some miracles then sacfrificed himself on the cross because of there human sins and didn't listen to him.