Falsoprofeta, Hello:
I see we read the same Christian sites that are not very trustworthy in depicting the truth about Islam
You have a lot of accusations in there....care to choose one at a time and we can deal with it. I actually responded with a looong post, then accidently closed the window. :heated:
I will respond to a couple here, but your accusations are not just one word responses.
If anybody has any proof of the bible being manipulated into something completely different than what it originally was, I would like to see this proof
First, can you tell me where the original revelations are so we can analyze them? They've never surfaced. So, there is no one alive on this planet that knows what the exact revelation are, and there are no written manuscripts, documents, etc., that have ever been found or preserved.
However, that being said, there have been many revisions/deletions, etc. to all versions of the bibles. How do you know which one is the truth? If you claim all are true with no errors or contradictions, we can discuss that.
i. The Bible documents are well attested as being reliable and accurate by historians and Scholars.
Funny, I can find hundreds that say the opposite. I've listed just a few here:
Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts, Dr. Frederic Kenyon, Eyre and Spottiswoode, p. 3
In the latter part of the second century, Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth says: "As the brethren desired me to write epistles(letters), I did so, and these the apostles of the devil have filled with tares (changes), exchanging some things and adding others, for whom there is a woe reserved. It is not therefore, a matter of wonder if some have also attempted to adulterate the sacred writings of the Lord, since they have attempted the same in other works that are not to be compared with these."
Rev. Professor David Jenkins, the fourth highest-ranking Bishop in the Church of England and the Bishop of Durham had the following admission to make:
"[some of the events in the early mission of Jesus] were not strictly true but were added to the story of Jesus by the early Christians to express their faith in him as a Messiah." [London Daily Mail, page 12, 15/July/1984]
"The Five Gospels," is a 550 page book containing translations of the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. It was the result of a six year study by 24 Christian scholars from a number of Western universities. They decided to produce a translation of the Gospels which would be uncolored by the translator's personal faith. Their conclusion (page 5) was:
"Eighty-two percent of the words ascribed to Jesus in the gospels were not actually spoken by him."
"1 John 5:7 in the Textus Receptus (represented in the KJV) makes it appear that John had arrived at the doctrine of the trinity in explicit form ('the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost'), but this text is clearly an interpolation since no genuine Greek manuscript contains it." [The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary, Edited by Allen C. Myers, p. 1020]
"The Dictionary of the Bible," bears the Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur, and Imprimi Potest (official Church seals of approval).
iii. Shortly after Muhammad's death, the Muslim Uthman ordered all sets of the Koran manuscripts to be destroyed except the codex of Zaid. Why? Is it because Zaid's copy was better? If so, how do we know? Did differences in the copies arise so quickly that discrepancies were evident and Uthman recognized the need for a standardized copy lest Islam suffer division? It raises doubt on the Koran's supposed incorruptibility.
Before making such accusations, you need to provide proof. But, because I know you can't, I will respond:
After the death of the Prophet, pbuh, Umar and Bakr noticed that many of the hufaz (disciples that committed the entire Qur’an to memory), were being killed in battles, etc. They called for the Chief Scribe of the Prophet, Zayed Ibn Thabit, to gather all the written surahs (chapters), as well as 2 witnesses (per verse) that were present at the exact time they were revealed to Muhammed, pbuh. Not that this was really required as there were many, many people that had the Qur’an memorized at this time.
It was then codified as a single book and was given out to different Arab communities. By the time Uthman became Caliph, he realized there was a problem. The problem that it was written in shorthand and many non-arab believers were reciting the Qur’an incorrectly due to the difference in languages and dialect. Example: The lack of diacritical vowel notations. The word “bed” would appear in the text as “bd.” Those who were not familiar with Arabic would either say “bad,” “bud,” “bod,” or “bid.” (example provided by Ali Ataie, Defense of Islam).
To correct this problem, Uthman had Zayad gather all of the shorthand Qur’ans and burn them to avoid it from becoming corrupted due to misquotes, etc. He followed the same process as before and this is the official text of the Muslims. The Qur’an, as it was revealed to Prophet Muhammed, is the exactly same as is recited all over the word today. There is not one shred of evidence that any word, let alone verse, was altered in any way. Remember, the Qur’an was committed to memory by thousands and not ONE person ever made that accusation. There is absolutely NO evidence to support such a claim.
There is no evidence at all that the Koran was written down in its entirety in Muhammad's lifetime and compiled as a unit. So how could he have verified its truth?
Where is your proof that it was not written down in its entirety?? Again, because I know you can't provide the proof, I will post from the book, In Defense of Islam, by Ali Ataie, as he provides a short, clear explanation:
It is in the Sunni tradition that the entire Qur’an was written down during the lifetime of the Prophet. Verses were penned on paper, stones, palm leaves, ribs, shoulder blades, and sheets of leather. There was actually a group of scribes called As-habbus-suffah whose sole purpose was to record the divine revelations as Muhammad uttered them. We also believe that the Prophet recited the entire Qur’an once a year to Gabriel and twice in his final year to ensure accuracy. Even with this said, there were hundreds of disciples that had the entire revelation committed to memory (hufaz) as there are thousands today ranging from age five to eighty-five.
As u can see the Bible has a great deal of evidence to support it:
Please provide your proof and I will be more than happy to discuss it.
forced to deal with many contradictions within the Koran
Please provide your proof and I will be more than happy to discuss it.
After all, even the Koran itself says the bible is not corrupt.
You really have to stop reading those christian sites.
If you actually read the verses you would understand Allah, swt, is telling us that if we want to know the truth in previous revelation, all we have to do is look at the previous scriptures and where they agree with the Qur'an, they are truth, where they don't....they are false. Simple.
When and where was the Bible corrupted
Jesus, pbuh, was clear when He said he was not here to abolish the old law: In Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus stated: “17 Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the [way of] the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18For, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.”
However, Paul, who claimed to be a disciple of Jesus, systematically cancelled the laws. In his letter to the Romans, chapter 7:6, he stated, “But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.”
When and how the bible started to be corrupt is written in the bible itself, as you can see from the above. You follow Paul.....not Jesus, pbuh. Unless, of course, you can show me the Gospel according to Jesus that agrees with Pauline doctrine??? I don't think you'll find it.
Ok, I answered far more than I intended in this post. Please, for the sake of time and short posts, let's address one thing at a time. And, for your own benefit....don't follow those Christian sites. Go to Islamic sites and learn for yourself. Then, if you disagree with something or don't understand, ask.
Peace,
Hana
So, with that kind of mentality, it makes no wonder the church can do whatever it wants. The flock will continue to follow blindly.
Oh, and the books I'm reading, they are neither Christian nor Muslim scholars....they are independents with no outside interests or motives. 