Christianity or Islam?

[Turin Turambar]

Re: One Hundred Christian Proofs Of Islamic Falsehood

I am a Christian and I would like to participate. Since most of the arguments posted above are not real arguments at all and only pretend to be funny (number 21 for example) why don't we focus on the real arguments? Number 2 for instance is a good argument that most Christians agree with. Muhammad killed and killed many people. Jesus certainly didn't, not even to save his life. Who looks closer to our idea of a merciful God?

 

[Turin Turambar]

Re: One Hundred Christian Proofs Of Islamic Falsehood

Another good one is Number 84:

Certain Islamic States treat women like dirt and kill anybody who is not a Muslim.
I think that Islamic States must reflect Islamic teachings.
Therefore, Islam is false.

Isn't it too much of a coincidence that ALL states who treat women like dirt and kill those who disagree with the official religion are Islamic? Why is it that we never see in the news an "honor killing" in a Christian country? Could it be that "honor killings" and Islam are SOMEHOW related? If some states such as Iran and Saudi Arabia call themselves Islamic every time they can, shouldn't we believe that they reflect at least PART of the Islamic teachings? The only state that calls itself Christian is the Vatican. When was the last time you saw an "honor killing" in the Vatican? Or in fact in any country that doesn't call itself Islamic?

 

[Turin Turambar]

Re: One Hundred Christian Proofs Of Islamic Falsehood

Another good one is number 95:

Islam teaches me to defend myself if someone attacks me.
Jesus told me to turn the other cheek.

Could that be the explanation for why Sunnis and Shias are killing each other in places like Iraq and Pakistan? Perhaps they are following Islam and they feel attacked by the other group, so they defend themselves? And obviously after the "defense" the other group also feels attacked so it defends itself in turn? And they keep the cycle forever?

And could that be the reason why in a place like America several different Christian denominations keep perfect peace among themselves, because they turn the other cheek? If they perceive an insult they forgive instead of seeking revenge?

And that could explain why America is peaceful and rich and why Iraq and Pakistan are violent and poor?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: One Hundred Christian Proofs Of Islamic Falsehood

I am a Christian and I would like to participate. Since most of the arguments posted above are not real arguments at all and only pretend to be funny (number 21 for example) why don't we focus on the real arguments? Number 2 for instance is a good argument that most Christians agree with. Muhammad killed and killed many people. Jesus certainly didn't, not even to save his life. Who looks closer to our idea of a merciful God?

According to your own logic, Prophet Moses should also not be considered a prophet. Do you believe he is a prophet?

Isn't it too much of a coincidence that ALL states who treat women like dirt and kill those who disagree with the official religion are Islamic?

Not so. Only in the modern age when Muslim countries have degenerated into poor third-world countries, do we find a deviation from Islamic teachings. In the age of the Islamic empire, women took a very active role, such that thousands of Muslim women who were scholars and leaders have been listed in Aisha Bewley's Muslim Women: A Biographical Dictionary.

Could it be that "honor killings" and Islam are SOMEHOW related?

honor killings have nothing to do with Islam:
http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=154&main_cat_id=6

Regards

ps. Welcome to Load-Islam forums!

 

[Idris]

Re: One Hundred Christian Proofs Of Islamic Falsehood

Another good one is number 95:

Islam teaches me to defend myself if someone attacks me.
Jesus told me to turn the other cheek.

Could that be the explanation for why Sunnis and Shias are killing each other in places like Iraq and Pakistan? Perhaps they are following Islam and they feel attacked by the other group, so they defend themselves? And obviously after the "defense" the other group also feels attacked so it defends itself in turn? And they keep the cycle forever?

And could that be the reason why in a place like America several different Christian denominations keep perfect peace among themselves, because they turn the other cheek? If they perceive an insult they forgive instead of seeking revenge?

And that could explain why America is peaceful and rich and why Iraq and Pakistan are violent and poor?

you talked about Sunnis and Shias are killing each other but Protestants and Catholics would shed each other's blood in prodigious amounts in national wars and in civil wars. I know my History and The French Wars of Religion: 1562-1598, In March, 1562, an army led by the Duke of Guise attacked a Protestant church service at Vassy in the province of Champagne and slaughtered everybody they could get their hands on: men, women, and children—all of whom were unarmed. Thus began the French Wars of Religion which were to last for almost forty years! and destroy thousands of innocent lives. The Thirty Years War, 1618-1648 The Thirty Years War was, perhaps, the first World War fought in Europe, for nearly every state in Europe became involved in the war in some way or another. The sheer amount of casualties and human destruction made this war the most calamitious and disastrous war of European history before the nineteenth century. ...


Another good one is Number 84:

Certain Islamic States treat women like dirt and kill anybody who is not a Muslim.
I think that Islamic States must reflect Islamic teachings.
Therefore, Islam is false.

A number of Islamic countries claim that they are an Islamic state and that secularism has no place in their society. Some Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia consider secularism to be a great sin. Is there any concept of an Islamic state in the Qur'an? Or in the Hadith literature? Does an Islamic state fit into any classical model? The answer is a categorical no.

I chat a lot with Christian and most of the time it’s them asking questions so am going to ask you some…do you have any Christian States that follow the Christian teachings? And don’t tell me the USA .it’s seems to me that you Christian have soo much love going around that you like chating about Muslims problems but don’t care about your country. :hiding:

There are 105.5 million households in the USA.
5.5 million of these consist of unmarried partnerships, :heated:
Of these, 595,000 consist of same sex partners. :heated:

 

[Turin Turambar]

Re: One Hundred Christian Proofs Of Islamic Falsehood

To Ansar Al-'Adl and Idris, thanks for your answers. It is very important that we debate because we are dealing with the most important thing in our lives so if one of us is wrong, the sooner he finds the truth the better.

To Ansar Al-'Adl:
1) Yes I do consider Moses a prophet but NOT an example to be imitated today. My only example to be imitated is Jesus. The problem is that Muslims DO consider Muhammad an example to be imitated today. And since his methods were often very violent, Muslims who imitate him get in terrible conflict with the world around them.

2) It might be true that in the past Muslim women occupied those exalted roles, but we cannot turn on the TV and check so we will always have doubts. A Muslim-inspired book will say one thing but the book I have (written by Ibn Warraq, whom I sincerely recommend) says something very different. History is hard to check and prone to biased interpretations. Current realities are much easier to check. Where do we find the women who run companies? Where do we find the women killed in "honor killings"? Again, the answers are on your TV every day.

3) The argument for "honor killings" is similar. If they have nothing to do with Islam, why do we find them only in Islamic countries? Isn't it much of a coincidence? If they were random, shouldn't we find a few of them in every region of the world? Why are they all concentrated in Islamic countries?

I will answer to Idris in my next post. Thanks

 

[Turin Turambar]

Re: One Hundred Christian Proofs Of Islamic Falsehood

My answer to Idris is the following:

First of all, it is great that you know about history. I love history. What you mention about the wars of religion in Europe is absolutely true. The reason why that happened is that in the past we all killed each other for religious and political reasons. We were all very primitive. Only one religion could guide people out of that primitive state so that they could learn to live with each other in peace. That religion was Christianity and the reason is that its founder was a man of peace who never touched a sword. Muhammed lived all his life with a sword in his hand so his followers never dropped it and are still using it....very actively.

About any state that follows Christian teachings, I think that America is actually a great example! This is exactly the free, respectful society that Christians want to live in. You point to same-sex partnerships and things like that. You have to keep in mind that Christianity is a truth of FREEDOM. In a Christian country nobody is forced to live according to Christian teachings. We are all free. You can live a morally wrong life. But in America you CAN live as a veritable saint if you want. In fact the number of people who live according to Christian teachings is much higher than the number of same-sex partnerships...by an order of magnitude.

Once again, a key difference is that Islam is at bottom a set of rules that God (the master) has imposed and his slaves have to obey. Christianity is a truth that brings freedom, given by God (the father) to his children who should embrace it to be happy. You have to choose whether you want to be the slave of a master or the son of a loving father. That is the choice between Islam and Christianity.

 

[shorouk]

Re: One Hundred Christian Proofs Of Islamic Falsehood

these arguements are soooooooooooooooooo stupid
they dont make any sense wat so ever.......

 

[Turin Turambar]

Re: One Hundred Christian Proofs Of Islamic Falsehood

Dear shorouk,

Why don't you explain me why my arguments don't make any sense? Thanks.

 

[Christian_dove]

Re: One Hundred Christian Proofs Of Islamic Falsehood

you talked about Sunnis and Shias are killing each other but Protestants and Catholics would shed each other's blood in prodigious amounts in national wars and in civil wars. I know my History and The French Wars of Religion: 1562-1598, In March, 1562, an army led by the Duke of Guise attacked a Protestant church service at Vassy in the province of Champagne and slaughtered everybody they could get their hands on: men, women, and children—all of whom were unarmed. Thus began the French Wars of Religion which were to last for almost forty years! and destroy thousands of innocent lives. The Thirty Years War, 1618-1648 The Thirty Years War was, perhaps, the first World War fought in Europe, for nearly every state in Europe became involved in the war in some way or another. The sheer amount of casualties and human destruction made this war the most calamitious and disastrous war of European history before the nineteenth century. ...


Another good one is Number 84:

Certain Islamic States treat women like dirt and kill anybody who is not a Muslim.
I think that Islamic States must reflect Islamic teachings.
Therefore, Islam is false.

A number of Islamic countries claim that they are an Islamic state and that secularism has no place in their society. Some Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia consider secularism to be a great sin. Is there any concept of an Islamic state in the Qur'an? Or in the Hadith literature? Does an Islamic state fit into any classical model? The answer is a categorical no.

I chat a lot with Christian and most of the time it’s them asking questions so am going to ask you some…do you have any Christian States that follow the Christian teachings? And don’t tell me the USA .it’s seems to me that you Christian have soo much love going around that you like chating about Muslims problems but don’t care about your country. :hiding:

There are 105.5 million households in the USA.
5.5 million of these consist of unmarried partnerships, :heated:
Of these, 595,000 consist of same sex partners. :heated:

Norway is considered a christian country, all official church services are payed for and runned by the authorities. There are numeral other ministries that is outside of The Norwegian Church, some of which receive financial support according to the amount of registered members. Muslim ministries also receives this support. We have however decided to split the power to avoid unjustice, we have a gouvernment, but we also have a supreme court, a king (with no real power) and a church. If you wanna hear more about it, (this is boring), here:

The Norwegian legal system is a mixture of customary law, civil law system, and common law traditions; the Supreme Court renders advisory opinions to legislature when asked; accepts compulsory ICJ jurisdiction, with reservations.

The regular courts include the Supreme Court (Høyesterett) with 17 permanent judges and a president, courts of appeal (court of second instance in most cases), city and county courts (court of first instance in most cases), and conciliation councils (court of first instance in petty cases). Judges attached to the regular courts are appointed by the King in council after nomination by the Ministry of Justice.

The special High Court of the Realm (Riksrett) hears impeachment cases against members of the Government, Parliament, or Supreme Court. The High Court of the Realm consists of the Lagting (one-fourth of the Members of Parliament) with the addition of the permanent members of the Supreme Court. The High Court of the Realm generally lost most of its significance after 1884, and this institution has been passive ever since 1927.


I think I would consider Norway to be christian, but ther are debates going on right now regarding wether church and the state should be separated or not.

If you compare our laws with the ten commandments, you will find similarities, they are quite obvious, though. You shall not kill, you shall not steal, etc. We follow most of those things, yes. We are so lawful... The word "law" actually origins from the old norwegian word, lagu.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: One Hundred Christian Proofs Of Islamic Falsehood

To Ansar Al-'Adl:
1) Yes I do consider Moses a prophet but NOT an example to be imitated today.

In which case you admit that participation in military campaigns has no impact whatsoever on the validity of one's prophethood. Also note that Prophet Moses pbuh was the example for his nation for centuries (the Jews today still consider him the best human being). If something was just then, why is it no longer just today?

My only example to be imitated is Jesus. The problem is that Muslims DO consider Muhammad an example to be imitated today. And since his methods were often very violent, Muslims who imitate him get in terrible conflict with the world around them.

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh never used violence (defined as the unjust use of force) but he used force for protection of society and for establishment of justice and liberation from oppression. If we are to imitate Jesus, then why is there no advanced nation in the world which does not possess a military or police (law enforcement) agency? The necessity of force in certain cases is something that is recognized by all modern scholars.

Since this topic has already been covered in great detail, I may as well refer you to the following answer from MENJ which raises a few questions about Christian claims on Jesus as well:
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/arch...-and-the-prophet-muhammad-a-muslim-viewpoint/

2) It might be true that in the past Muslim women occupied those exalted roles, but we cannot turn on the TV and check so we will always have doubts.

*yawn* Not only have you committed the spotlight fallacy in referencing the prevalent image conveyed in western media, but you also seem to have conveniently forgotten the western colonial powers and influence which destroyed the Islamic empire, divided up its territories and seated dictators in Muslim countries in the place of the Caliph. There is not a single Islamic state today and you're reference to these countries is fallacious since they have become third-world poor destitute and war-torn. The complete absurdity of your claim is as if we were to blame africans for the poor condition of African civilization today!! The reality is that the blame should go on those invading colonial powers who enslaved and subjugated other nations.

A Muslim-inspired book will say one thing but the book I have (written by Ibn Warraq, whom I sincerely recommend) says something very different.

No doubt Ibn Warraq will say something different because he is a known liar (no one even knows who the real person behind this pseudonym is!) and has absolutely no credibility amongst the modern intellectual and objective community of scholars. His anti-islamic drivel has no place amongst objective research.

History is hard to check and prone to biased interpretations.

History is not hard to check when proper references and historical evidences are cited, as done in the book I referred you to.

The argument for "honor killings" is similar. If they have nothing to do with Islam, why do we find them only in Islamic countries?

There is no Islamic country in the world. Please do not confuse Muslim majority countries with Islamic countries. And you should no better than to commit the fallacy of assessing Islamic teachings based on the mistakes of those who claim to follow it. The issue of honor killings is a cultural, not religious, problem.

Isn't it much of a coincidence? If they were random, shouldn't we find a few of them in every region of the world?

They do; you just haven't conducted your research properly. There have been a number of incidents amongst Sikhs, Arab Christians, etc.

Regards

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

This thread has been split from the thread "One Hundred Christian Proofs Of Islamic Falsehood"; a more detailed discussion on the arguments involved deserves its own thread.

 

[Eric H]

Re: One Hundred Christian Proofs Of Islamic Falsehood

Greetings and peace Turin Turambar;

if one of us is wrong, the sooner he finds the truth the better.

It saddens me when we direct our efforts in trying to change others in the quest for ‘truth’

I am reminded of the tactics used by politicians approaching election time, they seem to dedicate a huge amount of effort rubbishing the opposition without really looking at themselves.

Faith is for the individual to seek a relationship with God and our neighbour and this can be daunting at times. I often feel that we should put more effort into trying to change ourselves than we do in trying to change others.

We need to strive for that inner peace in our own hearts, and this comes by seeking justice for all people.

In the spirit of seeking greater interfaith friendships

Eric

 

[abdul Majid]

turin, your talking nonsense

 

[i_m_tipu]

Christian_dove, Eric H, Turin Turambar
Looking to the Nonbelievers world......
their Bisop(countries best Scholar) is a Homosexual (is their Prophet alive today i wonder what he feels)
their r so many many many thing to give example what i should not. As bcoz i simply care for my mouth.

and looking to the believer..........
if u research any simple non rated believer’s daily life.....
oh boys u head can't make u understand that
how can anyone live so Piously
how can anyone fear so much for his wrong doing
how can anyone give so much donation to poor even he is consider as a poor man
how can anyone believe so strongly.....
but u know something
their house is being destroyed, their property is being destroyed, they r being bombed, they r being murdered, they r called the most danger people (my head can't make me understand it)
but again u know something
if u have Realizing head
u will find they r most happiest person in the world....

At the end i just ask u 2 very simple question
why does the god send so many Prophet for the man kind???
why does the god not sending any Prophet now after the Prophet Mohammad???

 

[abdul Majid]

Nice Brother.....

Why Have There Been Prophets To Covey A Message?

Why Isnt There Another Prophet After Mohamed(saw) ..its Been 1400 Years

 

[Umar001]

I really still find it amazin that people say 'look at the islamic country' this must means that becuse they do bad, islam is the source for that.

Even if there is a conection, the viewing of people in order to derive the teaching of a religion or system is so inconsiderate.

And this is the type of arguement brought forward by people?

Well no wonder we are stuck, like chewing gum on the street

peace be upon yall

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace IsaAbdullah;

And this is the type of arguement brought forward by people?

You must live in hope, not all people are narrow minded.

In the spirit of seeking peace with people of all faiths

Eric

 

[Umar001]

Greetings and peace IsaAbdullah;


You must live in hope, not all people are narrow minded.

In the spirit of seeking peace with people of all faiths

Eric

I sure try bro Eric, and I have seen the best of people on this website actually, and in life and I hope we all are guided towards Almighty God

'In the spirit of seeking peace with people of all faiths'

 

[Turin Turambar]

Thanks to all for your answers! And I am very proud that now I have my own thread...

To Ansar Al-'Adl:

1) Your example of Moses is very useful. I DO think that what he did was the right thing at that time...but he lived approximately 3,200 years ago. He is not an example for us today anymore. He lived in a barbarous time, among savage peoples who were exterminating each other. Today, and thanks to the advance of Western (Christian) countries we live in a civilized era, when somebody behaving like Moses has no role. And somebody behaving like Muhammed has even less of a role. If you follow the wrong example, you are going to get in trouble. Since Muslims around the world are following the wrong example, they are in trouble every day. Change your model!

2) You say that Muhammad never used violence, defined as the "unjust use of force". But the problem is that the definition of "unjust" that you use is always from the point of view of Muslims. It would be very good for all of you to see things once in a while from the point of view of non-Muslims who are being invaded. For instance, all of you Muslims take pride in the conquests of Umar (a close follower of Muhammad) whose armies invaded Egypt, Syria and Persia (Iran). You think that doesn't qualify as "unjust" use of force because it was the expansion of Islam, and Islam is always right. But what about those who were invaded? What was their impression of Islam? Was that use of violence "unjust" form THEIR point of view? Those who lost their loved ones in the Muslim invasions, aren't they allowed to say that Muhammad is a terrorist and teacher of terrorists?

3) You finally say that the lamentable condition of Muslim countries today is derived from the influence of Western powers. Was that the only influence of Western powers? What about electricity, modern medicine and automobiles? Shouldn't all those gifts from the West offset whatever evil influence it had over the Muslim countries? And what about countries such as Japan, Korea and today China? They were also "oppressed" by western powers but now they are or are becoming leaders in many fields. Why don't we see the same happening in Muslim countries? The answer is simple. Islam KEEPS YOU IN POVERTY AND TYRANNY. It develops a mindset among its followers that makes it impossible for the society to get rich and peaceful. Once again, change you model and enjoy everything modernity has to offer.