Christianity or Islam?

[adi8putra]

Learning is the KEY!! Itz how we move on and gather info!! I wanna know different things so I know what Im talkn about or what others are talkn about when they are discussing thingz!! U dont have to follow a thread if u dont want to....Itz for me more about learning about Christianity and more so Islam!! Coz different pointz can be raized!!

i do not see the point here. what kind of learning? the christians used their bible as their source of divine inspiration (which the muslim rejects) and the muslim used their quran as their source of divine inspiration (which the christians rejects). so, what's the point here?:uhwhat

 

[dougmusr]

i do not see the point here. what kind of learning? the christians used their bible as their source of divine inspiration (which the muslim rejects) and the muslim used their quran as their source of divine inspiration (which the christians rejects). so, what's the point here?:uhwhat

Actually, since your religious belief is listed as undisclosed, you could be an athiest or an agnostic. Perhaps we'll learn enough to come over to the dark side?

 

[ZOREENA]

Well wer in a world wer we learn sumthing new every day...Id like to know what things my brothers and sisters believe in....what things that segregate their religion from mine...ignorance isnt exactly bliss!! Itz like not learning about ur best friend and his or her personality and what makes them who they are...so id rather know who and what....life is a leraning curve!!!

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

This is gettn annoying now. Im done repeating myself.

 

[Angry_Abbas]

I find it hard to believe when muslims are more concerned with fearing God rather then loving him? Because thats what the Judae-Christian book teaches. So i don't think the Quran confirmed anything.

Islam fears god, christians love god. End of story you make the decision who seems right

 

[Angry_Abbas]

I also find it abhorrent that Muslims and Christians believe in the same God? That is so far from the truth.

Mohamed was nothing like jesus. Jesus loved his enemies, Mohamed killed them.Jesus Loved god, Mohamed feared him.Jesus Trusted in God, Mohamed tried earning trust i mean the list goes on and on and on no similarities in the two men at all

 

[dougmusr]

This is gettn annoying now. Im done repeating myself.

I'm sorry, where did you repeat yourself? I have ben coming and going.

We confirm both scriptures, yes, not tryin to deny it . But wen it was in its original form or rather as we feel still has a bit truth left.

So are you saying that God told the Prophet to verify the revelation he was receiving against scriptures He knew at the time were in error?

010.094
YUSUFALI: If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
PICKTHAL: And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.
SHAKIR: But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

The Quran was not sent down to put the previous scriptures in error but to complete it. Where are u gettin this?Whats funny is u jus made my point. Maybe u need to read carefully. At the time, the bible wasnt in complete error.
Its saying if u have doubt of the previous books, then ask those who have been reading it for it has "indeed come from thy Lord" People were deviating away from the Word of God, so He sent down a final revelation to complete both books. Bros and sis's lemme know if i have any errors in wat i am tryin to say. i dont want to be accountable for any misleading info, much appreciated.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

For the one who claims that the God of Islam is not about love:

Qur'an 19:96 On those who have faith and do good deeds will the Most Gracious One bestow LOVE (Ar. Wudda)

Qur'an 3:31 Say [O Muhammad], "If you love God, follow me. GOD WILL LOVE YOU and forgive you your sins; for God is oft-forgiving, most merciful."

And the Prophet said that God says, "My servant continues to draw nearer to me through superogatory acts of worship, attaining my LOVE." (Sahîh Bukhârî)

For the one who claims the Prophet Muhammad was about hostility and violence:

Mercy
The Prophet said: 'Show mercy to those on earth so that He who is in heaven will have mercy on you.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Gentleness
The Prophet said: 'Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good.' (Sahîh Muslim)

Forgiveness
The Prophet said: 'Whoever suffers an injury done to him and forgives (the person responsible), Allah will raise his status to a higher degree and remove one of his sins.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Virtue
The Prophet said: 'Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Justice
The Prophet said: 'The most virtuous jihâd is when one speaks a word of truth before an unjust ruler.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd, Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)

Civility
The Prophet said: 'The Muslim does not slander, curse, speak obscenely, or speak rudely.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Honesty
The Prophet said: 'Honesty leads to righteousness and righteousness leads to Paradise. A man remains honest and concerned about honesty until he is recorded as an honest man with Allah. Lying leads to sinfulness and sinfulness leads to the Fire. A man keeps lying and remains partial to lies until he is recorded as a liar with Allah.' (Sahîh Bukharî, Sahîh Muslim)

Tolerance
Once the Prophet was seated at some place in Madinah, along with his Companions. During this time a funeral procession passed by. On seeing this, the Prophet stood up. One of his companions remarked that the funeral was that of a Jew. The Prophet replied, “Was he not a human being?” (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim, Sunan An-Nasâ'î)

A disbelieving Bedouin urinated in the mosque, and the people rushed to beat him. Allah's Apostle ordered them to leave him alone, let him finish and pour water over the place where he has passed urine. The Prophet then explained to the Bedouin calmly, "This is a place of worship, in it is the worship of God and the reading of Qur'an." After the Bedouin had left, the Prophet then said to his companions, " You have been sent to make things easy (for the people) and you have not been sent to make things difficult for them." (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

For the one who claims that the God of Islam is not about love:

Qur'an 19:96 On those who have faith and do good deeds will the Most Gracious One bestow LOVE (Ar. Wudda)

Qur'an 3:31 Say [O Muhammad], "If you love God, follow me. GOD WILL LOVE YOU and forgive you your sins; for God is oft-forgiving, most merciful."

And the Prophet said that God says, "My servant continues to draw nearer to me through superogatory acts of worship, attaining my LOVE." (Sahîh Bukhârî)

For the one who claims the Prophet Muhammad was about hostility and violence:

Mercy
The Prophet said: 'Show mercy to those on earth so that He who is in heaven will have mercy on you.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Gentleness
The Prophet said: 'Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good.' (Sahîh Muslim)

Forgiveness
The Prophet said: 'Whoever suffers an injury done to him and forgives (the person responsible), Allah will raise his status to a higher degree and remove one of his sins.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Virtue
The Prophet said: 'Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Justice
The Prophet said: 'The most virtuous jihâd is when one speaks a word of truth before an unjust ruler.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd, Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)

Civility
The Prophet said: 'The Muslim does not slander, curse, speak obscenely, or speak rudely.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Honesty
The Prophet said: 'Honesty leads to righteousness and righteousness leads to Paradise. A man remains honest and concerned about honesty until he is recorded as an honest man with Allah. Lying leads to sinfulness and sinfulness leads to the Fire. A man keeps lying and remains partial to lies until he is recorded as a liar with Allah.' (Sahîh Bukharî, Sahîh Muslim)

Tolerance
Once the Prophet was seated at some place in Madinah, along with his Companions. During this time a funeral procession passed by. On seeing this, the Prophet stood up. One of his companions remarked that the funeral was that of a Jew. The Prophet replied, “Was he not a human being?” (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim, Sunan An-Nasâ'î)

A disbelieving Bedouin urinated in the mosque, and the people rushed to beat him. Allah's Apostle ordered them to leave him alone, let him finish and pour water over the place where he has passed urine. The Prophet then explained to the Bedouin calmly, "This is a place of worship, in it is the worship of God and the reading of Qur'an." After the Bedouin had left, the Prophet then said to his companions, " You have been sent to make things easy (for the people) and you have not been sent to make things difficult for them." (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)

Thanx Ansar...
That helped much.

 

[dougmusr]

The Quran was not sent down to put the previous scriptures in error but to complete it. Where are u gettin this?Whats funny is u jus made my point. Maybe u need to read carefully. At the time, the bible wasnt in complete error.
Its saying if u have doubt of the previous books, then ask those who have been reading it for it has "indeed come from thy Lord"

I'm trying to understand your assertion. I would interpret the statement "At the time, the bible wasnt in complete error" to mean "At the time, the Bible was not completely correct". Is that what you mean?

When you say the Quran completes the previous scriptures, are you saying it adds new revelation to it, corrects old revelation, or both?

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

i could answer that but i will be honest becuz its wrong if i say i know and i cant give misleading info. I know like half and half, so i will find that out for u if u wish, unless some1 else can answer that Im willing to admit what i dont know.

 

[Fishman]

I also find it abhorrent that Muslims and Christians believe in the same God? That is so far from the truth.

Mohamed was nothing like jesus. Jesus loved his enemies, Mohamed killed them.Jesus Loved god, Mohamed feared him.Jesus Trusted in God, Mohamed tried earning trust i mean the list goes on and on and on no similarities in the two men at all

Muslims worship a third of the Christian God. The third with created the universe. The authentic third.

And Arabic Bibles refer to God as Allah, so both the Christian 'Father' and the Muslim God are the same Deity.

Jesus (pbuh) did lash out when he needed to, remember the incident in the temple? And when he comes down to Earth again he will fight.

And Muhammad (pbuh) did love God. Read Ansar's post.

Muhammad (pbuh) also trusted in God. He trusted that God would save him from the people who tried to assassinate him. He trusted that God would keep him safe from his enemies when he was fleeing through the cave. the list goes on.

 

[*Hana*]

I also find it abhorrent that Muslims and Christians believe in the same God? That is so far from the truth.

Mohamed was nothing like jesus. Jesus loved his enemies, Mohamed killed them.Jesus Loved god, Mohamed feared him.Jesus Trusted in God, Mohamed tried earning trust i mean the list goes on and on and on no similarities in the two men at all

You may find it abhorrent because of your obvious lack of knowledge or understanding. Please explain to me how the Christians, Muslims and Jews ALL believe in the same God of Abraham and you say He is different for Muslims. :rollseyes

Yes, you're right, Muhammed and Jesus, pbut, were not alike. They were both great prophets and we love them dearly and they both taught the word of God. But, they are different. Jesus, pbuh, was born of a mother and no father through God's will, Muhammed, pbuh, was born of both mother and father, also through God's will. Jesus, pbuh, never married or had children, Muhammed, pbuh, did marry and have children, Jesus, pbuh, was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel, Muhammed, pbuh, was sent to all mankind, etc. Many differences.

Jesus, you say, loved His enemies which means you say he only taught peace. Hmmmm, these quotes say differently:

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household." (Matthew 10:34-36)

"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!" ... "Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three."... (Luke 12:49,51-53)

"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:26)

"Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war. For there will be five in a house: there'll be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father, and they will stand alone." (Gospel of Thomas)

There are many examples such as these in the bible, but as a Christian I'm sure you know your own bible much better than I, so you must be aware of them.

Now, for Muhammed, pbuh, please show me where He set out to kill and slaughter innocents. I can show you many examples where He showed nothing but mercy to His enemies. So much so, many of them embraced Islam because of it.

Are you so arrogant you see no need to fear God? As Muslims, yes, we absolutely love God. We love Him so much we submit to Him in worship 5 times a day, we have so much faith and trust in Him that we turn to Him in ALL aspects of our life, in everything we do and in everything that happens to us, we thank God. Do I fear God? Yes, of course. He is the Greatest, He is the creator of ALL things, He alone will judge me based on how I served Him. Do I fear breaking God's law...yes. His laws are clear and not difficult and yet you don't seem to care if you break them or not....why? You don't fear Him? Or maybe you don't have enough respect for Him? Which is it?

Long before the call to Prophethood, Muhammed, pbuh, was accepted and loved by all that knew Him. He was known as the trustworthy and was very well respected. Muhammed, pbuh, was accepted by His people. Can you say the same about Jesus, pbuh?

We love and revere Jesus, pbuh, and we know He didn't die and we know He will come back. We also know God, the most just, the all powerful, didn't need to slaughter an innocent man to forgive sins. He is more than capable of doing that on His own. Even Jesus, pbuh, as one of the greatest prophets, submitted to the will of God in the same manner as Muslims do today.

I sincerely hope you will take the time to learn before you make such comments in the future.

Peace to you,
Hana

 

[dougmusr]

i could answer that but i will be honest becuz its wrong if i say i know and i cant give misleading info. I know like half and half, so i will find that out for u if u wish, unless some1 else can answer that Im willing to admit what i dont know.

I would love to know the answer, and I would think you would too. It would help both of us understand the claims of our respective faiths.

 

[*Hana*]

I'm trying to understand your assertion. I would interpret the statement "At the time, the bible wasnt in complete error" to mean "At the time, the Bible was not completely correct". Is that what you mean?

When you say the Quran completes the previous scriptures, are you saying it adds new revelation to it, corrects old revelation, or both?

Peace to you:

We believe the Zubur, the Torah and the Injeel as it was originally revealed is the true word of God, however...we also believe these revelations became corrupted by man, both intentionally and unintentionally. Poor translations and missing text also became part of the problem. Then there are unknown authors whose statements can't be varified because we have no idea who they are. None of the original documents survived to be traced back for authenticity either....so for all these reasons and more, we absolutely do believe the bible became corrupt. What the Qur'an tells us is, basically, look to the previous revelations, where they agree it is the word of God, where they differ it is not.

So, yes, the revelation of the Qur'an was to bring back the true word of God, only this time, God Himself would protect it for all time. Previous revelations were for particular groups of people, like Jesus, pbuh, for the lost sheep of Israel. However, the revelation of the Qur'an was for ALL mankind and the Qur'an today, is the same as was revealed over 1400 years ago.

That's it in a nutshell. Hope it makes sense and you understand.

Peace,
Hana

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Peace to you:

We believe the Zubur, the Torah and the Injeel as it was originally revealed is the true word of God, however...we also believe these revelations became corrupted by man, both intentionally and unintentionally. Poor translations and missing text also became part of the problem. Then there are unknown authors whose statements can't be varified because we have no idea who they are. None of the original documents survived to be traced back for authenticity either....so for all these reasons and more, we absolutely do believe the bible became corrupt. What the Qur'an tells us is, basically, look to the previous revelations, where they agree it is the word of God, where they differ it is not.

So, yes, the revelation of the Qur'an was to bring back the true word of God, only this time, God Himself would protect it for all time. Previous revelations were for particular groups of people, like Jesus, pbuh, for the lost sheep of Israel. However, the revelation of the Qur'an was for ALL mankind and the Qur'an today, is the same as was revealed over 1400 years ago.

That's it in a nutshell. Hope it makes sense and you understand.

Peace,
Hana

omg thank you rofl...

 

[dougmusr]

Peace to you:

We believe the Zubur, the Torah and the Injeel as it was originally revealed is the true word of God, however...we also believe these revelations became corrupted by man, both intentionally and unintentionally. Poor translations and missing text also became part of the problem. Then there are unknown authors whose statements can't be varified because we have no idea who they are. None of the original documents survived to be traced back for authenticity either....so for all these reasons and more, we absolutely do believe the bible became corrupt. What the Qur'an tells us is, basically, look to the previous revelations, where they agree it is the word of God, where they differ it is not.

So, yes, the revelation of the Qur'an was to bring back the true word of God, only this time, God Himself would protect it for all time. Previous revelations were for particular groups of people, like Jesus, pbuh, for the lost sheep of Israel. However, the revelation of the Qur'an was for ALL mankind and the Qur'an today, is the same as was revealed over 1400 years ago.

That's it in a nutshell. Hope it makes sense and you understand.

Peace,
Hana

Thanks so much for the response and your patience. Since I don't know arabic, I can only go by english translations of the Quran. I am trying to understand the following verse.

Surah 10:94
YUSUFALI: If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
PICKTHAL: And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.
SHAKIR: But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

If the "Book from before thee" was not trustworthy at the time the Quran was revealed, why would God have commanded the Prophet to verify the revelation given him against it?

You refer to the unavailability of the original Bible manuscripts. I was under the impression that the Prophet could not write, and that the Quran was written down by his followers at a later date on bits and pieces of scrap material. Is this true? If so, where does one go to see the original manuscript of the complete Quran in its entirety? I'm talking about the original writings, not copies of them.

 

[*Hana*]

If the "Book from before thee" was not trustworthy at the time the Quran was revealed, why would God have commanded the Prophet to verify the revelation given him against it?

I'm sorry, I guess I didn't explain it very well in my previous post. We don't question that the bible does contain some of the original words of God. We know it does, and where the two books agree...ie: The virgin birth of Jesus, pbuh, we know is the truth. Where they differ: ie the crucifixion, we believe it is not the word of God. All Muhammed, pbuh, had to do was see where they agreed to know it was the word of God.

You refer to the unavailability of the original Bible manuscripts. I was under the impression that the Prophet could not write, and that the Quran was written down by his followers at a later date on bits and pieces of scrap material. Is this true? If so, where does one go to see the original manuscript of the complete Quran in its entirety? I'm talking about the original writings, not copies of them.

You are right in that the Prophet, pbuh, could not read or write. When He received a revelation, He had scribes write it on whatever was available at the time, (ie, leaves, wood, stone, etc.), and the verses were also committed to memory by hundreds in the life of Muhammed, pbuh. These writings were kept in the care of His daughter and after His death, out of fear of losing them or of the Qur'an suffering the same fate as the revelations before it, they were gathered by Uthman and compiled into one book. The scribes/copyists wrote them and they were checked by many for accuracy, not to mention all those, now numbering in the thousands, that had the Qur'an committed to memory. There are two originals remaining for viewing and both are exactly the same. There are also a few copies of the originals that are also exactly the same. The Arabic Qur'an as read and recited today is EXACTLY the same as it was over 1400 years ago. The number of people that have it committed to memory now is enormous and range in age from 5 to over 100 years. Great care was taken to ensure not one word or dot was changed, and it was through the dedication of many, not just one or two....or even 10, to make sure it was 100% accurate.

I know this is discussed in much better detail elsewhere on the forum and if you search the forum you can read more about it and it offers far more information than I have provided here. But, I hope this brief explanation is helpful.

Peace,
Hana

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Thanks so much for the response and your patience. Since I don't know arabic, I can only go by english translations of the Quran. I am trying to understand the following verse.

Surah 10:94
YUSUFALI: If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
PICKTHAL: And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.
SHAKIR: But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

If the "Book from before thee" was not trustworthy at the time the Quran was revealed, why would God have commanded the Prophet to verify the revelation given him against it?

Hi Doug,
Evangelical claims that the Qur'an grants authority to the Bible were examined in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/12755-authority-scriptures.html

As for the specific verse you mentioned, you need only look at the context. To quote another muslim site:

The first verse is from Surah Yunus. The basic theme of Surah Yunus is that when the Almighty sends his Messenger (Rasu'l) in a people, the fate of these people depends on their acceptance or rejection of that Messenger. If they - as a nation - reject the messenger, they are punished, not only in the hereafter but also in this world. On the contrary, if they - in their collective capacity - accept the message of God and believe in the messenger, they are blessed with success as individuals in the hereafter, and, as a nation, in this world, as well. The Surah primarily addresses the Quraish and the Arab polytheists and informs them of the fact that with the advent of Mohammad (pbuh) as the messenger of Allah, they too are now subjected to the law of the Almighty concerning His messengers. If they reject His messenger, they shall meet the same fate as was met by those who rejected God's messengers in the past. While, if they accept Mohammad (pbuh) and follow his teachings, they shall then be blessed with God's bounties, as were those who accepted and followed the messengers of God in the past.
From the beginning to verse 70 the basic message of the Qur'an - belief in one God, belief in His messenger and belief in the Day of Judgment - has been presented and the addressees are told that if they do not accept these elements of faith and reform their deeds accordingly, they shall face a painful punishment in this world as well as the hereafter.
From verse 71 to the end, the fact that the rejecters of a messenger of God face severe consequences of their rejection and those who accept his message are blessed with the bounties of the Creator is historically evidenced. In this respect, reference is made to the people of Noah (pbuh) and the addressees of Moses (pbuh). In both the cases, the separate ends of those who rejected and those who accepted God's message is stressed. The Quraish and the Arab polytheists are informed that in both the cases the rejecters were annihilated and those who believed in the messenger of God inherited the rule of the land.
The verse under consideration (Yunus 10: 94) is placed at the end of this reference to the two nations.
If seen in the correct context, it should be quite clear that the verse under consideration is not general but quite specific in its implication. The correct contextual translation of the verse, in my opinion, should be:

If you are in doubt regarding what we have revealed to you [concerning these nations], ask those who read the scriptures before you.
​

It is as if to say that these references are a part of the established history of the world and are thus, so well known that if anyone has any doubts regarding their authenticity, he may even ask the people of the book (the Jews and the Christians) about them. Even they shall accept them as facts.
Thus, if seen in the correct perspective, it shall be known that this verse has nothing to do with the authenticity or corruption of the old scriptures.
​

You refer to the unavailability of the original Bible manuscripts. I was under the impression that the Prophet could not write, and that the Quran was written down by his followers at a later date on bits and pieces of scrap material. Is this true?

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh had over 60 scribes who used to record the revelation. In addition, the Qur'an was always accesible to the common folk in fact it was memorized in its entirety and recited in daily prayers, and recited throughout the year. In fact, during Ramadan, the Imam must recite the entire Qur'an cover to cover in front of the congregation. Any faulty memorization would be easily noted. This is what Muslims have been doing for 1400 years, every year reciting the exact same Qur'an.

If so, where does one go to see the original manuscript of the complete Quran in its entirety? I'm talking about the original writings, not copies of them.

You can read up on some of the ancient manuscripts of the Qur'an here:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/

Regards