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Mashallah, very helpful 
Christianity or Islam?
- Thread starter Turin Turambar
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I'm sorry, I guess I didn't explain it very well in my previous post. We don't question that the bible does contain some of the original words of God. We know it does, and where the two books agree...ie: The virgin birth of Jesus, pbuh, we know is the truth. Where they differ: ie the crucifixion, we believe it is not the word of God. All Muhammed, pbuh, had to do was see where they agreed to know it was the word of God.
You are right in that the Prophet, pbuh, could not read or write. When He received a revelation, He had scribes write it on whatever was available at the time, (ie, leaves, wood, stone, etc.), and the verses were also committed to memory by hundreds in the life of Muhammed, pbuh. These writings were kept in the care of His daughter and after His death, out of fear of losing them or of the Qur'an suffering the same fate as the revelations before it, they were gathered by Uthman and compiled into one book. The scribes/copyists wrote them and they were checked by many for accuracy, not to mention all those, now numbering in the thousands, that had the Qur'an committed to memory. There are two originals remaining for viewing and both are exactly the same. There are also a few copies of the originals that are also exactly the same. The Arabic Qur'an as read and recited today is EXACTLY the same as it was over 1400 years ago. The number of people that have it committed to memory now is enormous and range in age from 5 to over 100 years. Great care was taken to ensure not one word or dot was changed, and it was through the dedication of many, not just one or two....or even 10, to make sure it was 100% accurate.
I know this is discussed in much better detail elsewhere on the forum and if you search the forum you can read more about it and it offers far more information than I have provided here.But, I hope this brief explanation is helpful.
Peace,
Hana
Thanks for the information. I will do some more study on this as time permits. I presume that Islamic scholars also discount other historical documents which mention Jesus and the crucifixion such as the following from Josephus as fabrications by early Christians?
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63
*Hana*
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Peace Doug:
Actually, I agree that Josephus is a respected recorder of History....particularly with events that took place in his lifetime. However, he was born after Jesus, pbuh, was taken up so he was not a witness to anything that happened in the lifetime of Jesus, pbuh. He would have received this information from heresay and oral traditions at the time that cannot be authenticated because we don't know who told him the stories or who told that person, etc. Also, from the little I read, there seems to be a lot of contraversy amongst Biblical and Christian scholars about some of his writings being embellished by later followers of Christianity, but I honestly haven't read enough to be able to provide you with clear proofs of that.
Unfortunately, there are no records whatsoever from the lifetime of Jesus, pbuh. None that have been found yet anyway. Perhaps one day something will surface.
But, I must say, Josephus does provide wonderful historical accounts about things that happened during his own lifetime and, although I haven't read a lot, what I have read was very interesting.
Peace,
Hana
Thanks, I'll check out the references. Your post does bring up a question. In many of the translations, words are included in brackets or parenthesis. In the case of this verse, the english translation of the same verse on the site http://www.qurancomplex.org/Quran/Targama/Targama.asp?nSora=10&l=eng&nAya=94#10_94
differs as follows.
94. So if you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) are in doubt concerning that which We have revealed unto you, [i.e. that your name is written in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)], then ask those who are reading the Book [the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] before you. Verily, the truth has come to you from your Lord. So be not of those who doubt (it).
While I understand that the Quran is best read in Arabic, it seems to me that there is a significant danger in adding bracketed clarifications since this imposes the translators interpretation on the original text. Even in the single verse above, there is a considerable difference in meaning between the two when the bracketed text is added. Obviously the original Arabic couldn't have meant both.
InToTheRain
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Tolerance showed by the BIBLE:
This what the Bible says:
Exodus
God decides to kill Moses because his son had not yet been circumcised. 4:24-26
God will kill the Egyptian children to show that he puts "a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." 11:7
Those who break the Sabbath are to be executed. 31:14
God favors Israelites "above all people." 19:5
God drives out the pagan tribes and commands the Israelites to destroy their altars and places of worship. 34:11-14
Handicapped people cannot approach the altar of God. They would "profane" it. 21:16-23
No stranger or slave can "eat of the holy thing." 22:10, 13
If a priest's daughter marries "a stranger" she can't eat any holy things. 22:12
A man curses and blasphemes while disputing with another man. Moses asks God what to do about it. God says that the whole community must stone him to death. "And the children of Israel did as the Lord and Moses commanded." 24:10-23
When one of the Israelite men brings home a foreign woman, "Phinehas (Aaron's grandson) sees them and throws a spear "through the man .. and the woman through her belly." This act pleases God so much that "the plague was stayed from the children of Israel." But not before 24,000 had died. 25:6-9
For impaling the interracial couple, God rewards Phinehas and his sons with the everlasting priesthood. 25:10-13
And the list goes on.....
This is what Jesus says in the bible:
In the parable of the talents, Jesus says that God takes what is not rightly his, and reaps what he didn't sow. The parable ends with the words of Jesus: "bring them [those who preferred not to be ruled by him] hither, and slay them before me." Luke 19:22-27
Did Mohammad (Peace be upon him) seek power and glory? NO! he only wished to warn the people and convey the truth, how do we know this?
On one occasion, they sent a delegation to the Holy Prophet's uncle that he should restrain the Holy Prophet , from preaching his message. They threatened Abu Talib with their combined opposition. Finding himself in this state, he sent for the Holy Prophet , and explained to him the situation. The Holy Prophet , answered with these memorable words:
My dear uncle, if they should put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left, even then I shall not abandon the proclamation of the Unity of God. I shall set up the true faith upon the earth or perish in the attempt.
Impressed with his nephew's firm determination and high resolve. Abu Talib replied:
Son of my brother, go thy way, none dare touch thee. I shall never forsake thee.
Not being satisfied, they sent one of their chiefs to entice the Holy Prophet , and in the following words addressed the Holy Prophet :
O Muhammad , if you want to sit on the throne of Arabia we shall elect you our monarch; if you want money we shall give you no end to it and if you desire the hand of a beautiful woman, we are ready to present you the most beautiful lady in the land.
The Holy Prophet , was far above any worldly temptations and in reply he recited some verses of the Holy Quran proclaiming the Unity of Allah and his claim of being a true Messenger of Allah.
All muslims and non-muslims should know that Mohammad (Peace be upon him) was the best example of how the Holy Qu'ran is practice, thus:
This is what the Quran says about race:
O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you
may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with Allâh is that (believer) who has At-Taqwa
[i.e. one of the Muttaqûn (pious - see V.2:2). Verily, Allâh is All-Knowing, All-Aware. (49:13)
This is what Qur'an says about enemies of muslims:
Invite (mankind, O Muhammad SAW) to the Way of your Lord (i.e. Islâm) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Inspiration and the Qur'ân) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord
knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided.
Allâh does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allâh loves those who deal
with equity.
And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur'ân) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Mohayminan (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures)[]. So
judge between them by what Allâh has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allâh willed,
He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so strive as in a race in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allâh; then He will inform you about that in which you used to
differ. (5:48)
One only needs to read the Sealed nectar (Life story of the prophet Mohammad[peace be upon him]) to know he was a pacifist but whatever he did is for the sake of Allah and he did as Allah commanded as following Allahs commands can only bring peace. Islam is a way of life from life to death, it is practical and therefore it is permissable to kill or go to war under certain circumstances.
The tolerance showed by Companions of the Prohet Mohammad(Peace be upon him):
Umar ibn al-Khattab (ra) dictated a long will consisting of instructions for the next Khalifah said:
"I instruct you on behalf of the people who have been given protection in the name of Allah and His Prophet [i.e. the non-Muslim minorities within the Islamic state known as dhimmi's]. Our covenant to them must be fulfilled, we must fight to protect them, and they must not be burdened beyond their capabilities".
Off course, Umar (ra) was simply following what he learnt from the Prophet Muhammad (saw).The result of these teachings was a Muslim rule that set the gold standard for religious tolerance in a world that was not used to the idea.
InToTheRain
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It is annoying to see there are such narrow minded people who think wealth and power determines right from wrong, and is this mentality which has lead to times such as now where injustice is rampant.Was the pharoah at the tim eof Moses right? was the jews who slayed/Crucified Jesus, according to the bible, correct? clearly they were the superior people in terms of militiary might, wealth and material success therefore according some people in this forum they are more rightious!
Rightiuos people have always suffered, we can see this from when Moses came with the torah, Jesus came with the Bible, Mohammad(SAW) came with the Qur'an and many other prophets (May allah bless them).
We muslims believe life is a test, and any good we get from it we will thank Allah and any bad we will be patient while being faithfull to Allah.
Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 29 Surah Ankabut verses 2-7:
2 Do men think that they will be left alone on saying "We believe" and that they will not be tested?
3 We did test those before them, and Allah will certainly know those who are true, from those who are false.
4 Do those who practice evil think that they will get the better of us? Evil indeed is their judgment!
5 For those whose hopes are in the meeting with Allah (in the Hereafter, let them strive). For the Term (appointed) by Allah is surely coming! and He Hears and Knows (all things).
6 And if any strive, they do so for their own souls: for Allah is free of all needs from all creation.
Those who believe and work righteous deeds, from them shall We blot out all evil (that may be) in them, and We shall reward them according to the best of their deeds.
Rightiuos people have always suffered, we can see this from when Moses came with the torah, Jesus came with the Bible, Mohammad(SAW) came with the Qur'an and many other prophets (May allah bless them).
We muslims believe life is a test, and any good we get from it we will thank Allah and any bad we will be patient while being faithfull to Allah.
Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 29 Surah Ankabut verses 2-7:
2 Do men think that they will be left alone on saying "We believe" and that they will not be tested?
3 We did test those before them, and Allah will certainly know those who are true, from those who are false.
4 Do those who practice evil think that they will get the better of us? Evil indeed is their judgment!
5 For those whose hopes are in the meeting with Allah (in the Hereafter, let them strive). For the Term (appointed) by Allah is surely coming! and He Hears and Knows (all things).
6 And if any strive, they do so for their own souls: for Allah is free of all needs from all creation.
Those who believe and work righteous deeds, from them shall We blot out all evil (that may be) in them, and We shall reward them according to the best of their deeds.
Ansar Al-'Adl
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Hi Doug,
Yes you've quoted the Khan-Hilali translation and it has recieved criticism for its insertion of what should go in footnotes, directly into the text in brackets. The brackets are the explanatory comments and interpretation of the verse itself.
At any rate, however, the interpretation provided above for the verse is also plausible. The idea being that the Qur'an is telling the Prophet to ask the people of previous scriptures to see for himself that the Qur'an truly has related the history of prophets known in the Bible or (as per the Khan-Hilali translation) that it has correctly mentioned that such prophets prophesized the coming of Muhammad pbuh. Neither interpretation gives credence to any notion of the Qur'an endorsing the scriptures to be an authority or to have been preserved.
Regards
So here is how I understand the situation at this point.
1. We agree that the Bible and the Quran can't both be right in the places where they disagree.
2. We agree that in Surah 10:94 Muhammad was told to verify his revelation against the scriptures of his day should he be in doubt, and that there are various interpretations of this verse among Islamic scholars.
3. We agree that there are no known original manuscripts of the Bible but there are later manuscripts available.
4. Islam maintains that the existing Bible contains truth but unless the specific Biblical scripture in question is addressed in the Quran there is no way to know its truthfulness.
I don't claim to be a philosopher, so my logic may be flawed, but here's what I believe to be true.
1. While I am not a scholar of the Quran, the searches I have conducted thus far have not come up with any verses which specifically state that the earlier scriptures were in error.
2. The Quran includes a number of verses which mention the earlier scriptures and condemn people for not following the revelation contained in them. If the scriptures were known by God to be corrupt at the time, it would be difficult to condemn someone for not following them, rather, I would expect God to condemn those responsible for corrupting them.
3. If I can find Bible manuscripts from around 632AD I can compare them to the Quran to see where they are in disagreement. According to Surah 10:94, the parts of the Quran which disagree with the scriptures and teachings of the time can be questioned, and in fact should have been questioned at the time they were revealed.
4. If it is impossible to know which portions of the Bible are true, it is also impossible to know that it is not all true.
5. If the Quran is true, a person who discounts its truthfullness will nontheless be judged against it, even if they doubt its historical accuracy. The same can be said for the Bible.
1. We agree that the Bible and the Quran can't both be right in the places where they disagree.
2. We agree that in Surah 10:94 Muhammad was told to verify his revelation against the scriptures of his day should he be in doubt, and that there are various interpretations of this verse among Islamic scholars.
3. We agree that there are no known original manuscripts of the Bible but there are later manuscripts available.
4. Islam maintains that the existing Bible contains truth but unless the specific Biblical scripture in question is addressed in the Quran there is no way to know its truthfulness.
I don't claim to be a philosopher, so my logic may be flawed, but here's what I believe to be true.
1. While I am not a scholar of the Quran, the searches I have conducted thus far have not come up with any verses which specifically state that the earlier scriptures were in error.
2. The Quran includes a number of verses which mention the earlier scriptures and condemn people for not following the revelation contained in them. If the scriptures were known by God to be corrupt at the time, it would be difficult to condemn someone for not following them, rather, I would expect God to condemn those responsible for corrupting them.
3. If I can find Bible manuscripts from around 632AD I can compare them to the Quran to see where they are in disagreement. According to Surah 10:94, the parts of the Quran which disagree with the scriptures and teachings of the time can be questioned, and in fact should have been questioned at the time they were revealed.
4. If it is impossible to know which portions of the Bible are true, it is also impossible to know that it is not all true.
5. If the Quran is true, a person who discounts its truthfullness will nontheless be judged against it, even if they doubt its historical accuracy. The same can be said for the Bible.
gamsta3
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Hey Turin
Is it true in the bibe that Jesus said a paraclete would come after him who would confirm his teachings. And is it true that paraclete comes from the greek word parakletos which means he who praises, and it is true that Ahmed in arabic means the one who praises god the most.
Is it true in the bibe that Jesus said a paraclete would come after him who would confirm his teachings. And is it true that paraclete comes from the greek word parakletos which means he who praises, and it is true that Ahmed in arabic means the one who praises god the most.
gamsta3
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Well not christian as in a muslim kalipha but christian nonetheless. Dont forget many e.u contries dont want Turkey to join because they say it is not a CHRISTIAN country. Plus u cannot deny that there is heavy evangelicizing and missionary campaigns goiing on in Iraq and afghanistan.
Ansar Al-'Adl
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Hi Doug
2:75 Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then change it knowingly after they had understood it?
[FONT=Verdana,arial]3:78 There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah. It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it![/FONT]
5:13 So because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allah loves those who do good.
Also see 5:14, 5:41 and 4:46.
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/12755-authority-scriptures.html
The Qur'an actually tells us it is the Furqan (criterion) and the Muhaymin (Guardian authority) over previous revelations, to tell us what from the previosu revelations is true and what is false. Please read this short but very interesting article on the topic:
http://voiceforislam.com/FarmersMarket.html
Regards
He wasn't told to verify his revelation against these scriptures. He was told that the Prophets mentioned in the Qur'an who were sent to the Children of Israel were known to the Jews and Christians and he could verify this for himself just by asking the Jews and Christians, "Did God not send Noah? Abraham? Moses? Aaron?" and so on. They would reply "Yes, he did."
There are numerous verses that state such in the Qur'an. Here are a few:
2:75 Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then change it knowingly after they had understood it?
[FONT=Verdana,arial]3:78 There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah. It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it![/FONT]
5:13 So because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allah loves those who do good.
Also see 5:14, 5:41 and 4:46.
I believe the verse you are referring to was that which was explained in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/12755-authority-scriptures.html
This is exactly the interpretation that was debunked. Nowhere does the Qur'an grant authority to such scriptures over itself. I clearly explained that the Qur'an was making a point that the general history of the Prophets revealed in the Qur'an was not something foreign to the people of the previous revelations.
The Qur'an actually tells us it is the Furqan (criterion) and the Muhaymin (Guardian authority) over previous revelations, to tell us what from the previosu revelations is true and what is false. Please read this short but very interesting article on the topic:
http://voiceforislam.com/FarmersMarket.html
This is why the Qur'an has been sent. Whatever agrees with the Qur'an is confirmed to be true and what disagrees with it is rejected as false.
Regards
I presume this is in reply to one of my earlier posts. There seems to be much animosity on this forum towards Christians, and of course Americans. I am here as a person of faith trying to learn more about Islam. I doubt that we will convert each other, however, failure to communicate will ultimately have even worse consequences.
Concerning Turkey's admission to the EU, can you refer me to a source that shows that their acceptance is being hindered because they are not a Christian country?
If a country is not a muslim kalipha that does not make it Christian. Likewise, if a person lives in the US and is not a Muslim, that does not make the person a Christian. It is of course true that Christians prefer to live in countries that do not persecute them for their faith, and the US happens to be such a country. It is worth pointing out that Muslims in the US are free worship as well. This includes sharing their faith with others. I do fear that the rights of Christians and Muslims are under attack worldwide, and in spite of our diffences in belief, those with no religious faith see us as basically the same, a problem to be dealt with.
As a Christian, I am deeply concerned by the moral state of not only the US, but also of the EU. As a US citizen, I feel that the way to fix the moral state of the US is by sharing the Gospel (evangelism), and allowing the power of God to use His Word to change people's hearts. I feel the same way about evangelism and mission work in Iraq and Afghanistan. Obviously the presence of the US in these countries has made some Christian missionary work possible, but that does not mean our govornment is sponsoring it.
Thanks for your patience. At this point I am not convinced that Surah 10:94 is not to be taken literally. The verses you cited concerning changing the Word of God could mean altering the Bible manuscripts, but it does not have to be interpreted that way. 5:13 refers to the tongue, so I would take that to mean misquoting it, not rewriting it.
In any case, if the manuscripts were altered, there are an amazing number from various points of history that are in agreement, and some of these no doubt include the claims about the resurrection, crucifixion, etc. This means there must have been a wide spread conspiracy to search for the originals, collect them all, produce altered copies, and then destroy the originals. What a formidable task that must have been at a time in history where travel was limited pretty much to walking.
At this point, I have to do more research. At best I hope our discussion has given both sides more insight into the issues related to the Bible vs the Quran argument, although I know has been debated for centuries.
One last question if you don't mind. What in your opinion does it take for a person to be go to heaven?
Ansar Al-'Adl
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It IS to be taken literally. But it is to be taken literally IN CONTEXT. You can't just rob a verse of its surrounding context for reinterpretation. If seen in context it is clear what the verse is referring to, and it is further clarified with other passages in the Qur'an. At any rate, the interpretation that you suggested is not consistent with the text whether taken in isolation or in context. The verse ends by saying, "Verily the truth has come to you from your Lord so be not of those who doubt it" whereas your interpretation suggests the complete opposite - doubt it and question its authenticity from God!
This is the most obvious meaning of the verse and the only interpretation consistent with the rest of the Qur'an, the teachings of the Prophet, and the understanding of the companions, so from my perspective, yes it does have to be interpreted this way.
There is a miscocneption that Musims believe in salvation by works. In reality, Muslims believe in salvation first and foremost by the mercy of God and to attain His mercy we must have faith and perform righteous deeds.
Regards
I stumbled on this site while doing research on the Quran. Have you read any of the booklets?I'm sorry, I guess I didn't explain it very well in my previous post. We don't question that the bible does contain some of the original words of God. We know it does, and where the two books agree...ie: The virgin birth of Jesus, pbuh, we know is the truth. Where they differ: ie the crucifixion, we believe it is not the word of God. All Muhammed, pbuh, had to do was see where they agreed to know it was the word of God.
You are right in that the Prophet, pbuh, could not read or write. When He received a revelation, He had scribes write it on whatever was available at the time, (ie, leaves, wood, stone, etc.), and the verses were also committed to memory by hundreds in the life of Muhammed, pbuh. These writings were kept in the care of His daughter and after His death, out of fear of losing them or of the Qur'an suffering the same fate as the revelations before it, they were gathered by Uthman and compiled into one book. The scribes/copyists wrote them and they were checked by many for accuracy, not to mention all those, now numbering in the thousands, that had the Qur'an committed to memory. There are two originals remaining for viewing and both are exactly the same. There are also a few copies of the originals that are also exactly the same. The Arabic Qur'an as read and recited today is EXACTLY the same as it was over 1400 years ago. The number of people that have it committed to memory now is enormous and range in age from 5 to over 100 years. Great care was taken to ensure not one word or dot was changed, and it was through the dedication of many, not just one or two....or even 10, to make sure it was 100% accurate.
I know this is discussed in much better detail elsewhere on the forum and if you search the forum you can read more about it and it offers far more information than I have provided here.
Peace,
Hana
No anti-islamic links or articles from anti-islamic sites, please. You're free to articulate your objections yourself. Kindly refer to forum rules.
Ansar Al-'Adl
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Hi Doug,
The article you quoted is like many of the other unscholarly and poorly researched material on anti-islamic websites. Muslims have exposed the numerous errors found in such works. The most scholarly, detailed, fully referenced work in english on the Qur'anic preservation is certainly the following by Dr. M. M. Al-Azami PhD:
http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b7626.html
The author provides a complete documentation and decisive refutation to claims circulated by anti-islamists and includes a comparative analysis with the OT and NT.
The problem with the article you quoted - as well as many of the orientalists writings on the preservation of the Qur'an, is that they fail to distinguish between fabricated, weak, strong and authentic Ahâdîth (narrations). So if a statement is reported by one person five centuries after the Prophet, they will give it the same weight as a statement that has hundreds of direct chains of transmission to the Prophet. Naturally, this leads to many contradictions in their work. Arthur Jeffery argues on one hand that there were variants in Al-Fâtiha in Ibn Mas'ûd's Mushaf, but elsewhere he contradicts himself when he states that Al-Fâtiha was never present in the Mushaf at all!
Your source repeats the dubious report of Ibn Mas'ûd omitting three surahs, but this report has been refuted by the researchers who have studied the chains of narrations. See the refutation of this report by Imam Al-Bâqillânî in Al-Intisâr, pp. 190-191. The claim is also refuted on the basis of pure logic as well. Al-Fâtiha is the surah read in EVERY single unit of a Muslim's prayer. This means that every single Muslim recites this chapter at the very least 17 times a day. Clearly this was not some minor chapter to simply 'omit'!!
The same argument can be used for the whole Qur'an. Every single year, during the month of Ramadan, Muslims recites the entire Qur'an cover to cover publicly in the tarâwîh prayer congregation. This takes places in congregations of hundreds, thousands, and even millions all around the world. Any ommission or variant would be detectable.
Your source also makes a similar claim regarding Ubay ibn Kab's mushaf saying he had two extra surahs. M. M. Al-Azami's refutation of this claim:
Hammad b. Salama reported that Ubayy's Mushad contained two extra surahs, called al-Hafad and al-Khala'. This report is completely spurious because of a major defect in the chain, as there is an unaccounted-for gap of at least two to three generations between Ubayy's death (d. ca. 30H) and Hammad's (d. 167H) scholarly activity. (Al-Azami, p.203)
And the report about Ali ibn Abi Talib quoted in the article you cited is also a blatant fabrication.
And the author of your source is also mistaken about these alleged 'versions'. Even a cursory investigation into this subject would reveal that what is being discussed here is the different dialects of the arabic language. Clearly the author of your source needs to do his homework before propagated age-old debunked myths and tales that crumble under the scrutiny of objective research.
Regards
My apologies. Since I was doing research and am not at the point where I can check out each claim, on your site or any others for that matter, I merely posted the link. I will check out your references as I have time. I will say that just as you would hold that the link had a Christian bias, this forum obviously has an Islamic bias. The bias of the site does not necessarily mean truth can not be found there. However, people are obviously free to search the web elsewhere so there is no reason to include the info on your site.
Apparently Christians are not alone in holding this misconception as shown by the following quote.
"Yet no Muslim, even the best among them, imagines that he is guaranteed Paradise; on the contrary, the more conscientious and God-fearing one is, the more aware of his own shortcomings and weaknesses. Therefore the Muslim, knowing that God alone controls life and death, and that death may come to him at any time, tries to send on ahead for his future existance such deeds as will merit the pleasure of his Lord, so that he can look forward to it with hope for His mercy and grace."
"What everyone should know about Islam and Muslims", Suzanne Hanneef, Kazi Publications, April 1985, p37.
Your use of the phrase "to attain His mercy" shows that you also believe there is a threshold of righteous deeds which must be met for salvation. The quote above also indicates that some are more God-fearing than others. Must they meet the same criteria to enter Paradise?
So back to the original question. What in your opinion does it take for a person to go to heaven?
Ansar Al-'Adl
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Hi Doug,
The minimum required limit to get to paradise is to simply believe in God and His Messenger and to abide by His commands, and when one sins - which is something all human beings do - to repent to God and seek His forgiveness. If one just performs their basic obligations and avoids major sins God will grant them paradise by His will. Then after that is the minimum possible limit to enter paradise. If someone believed in God and His Messenger but indulged in major sins or continually abandoned religious obligations, they will be purified of their sins in Hell before they are admitted into paradise. The Prophet told us that God will continue to remove people from Hell until He removes those who had only an atom's weight of faith in their hearts, having never done any other good (Sahîh Bukhârî).
Regards
I'm not concerned with 'bias', I'm concered with obvious factual errors and distortions in the article, namely those which I have refuted in my previous post.
This quote merely states that entrance to paradise is determined first and foremost by the mercy of God and that faith in Him and good deeds are the means to attain (or 'merit') the mercy of God - a point I already mentioned in my post. So this is not the misconception that some Christians have. These Christians think that Muslims believe that you have to perform a certain quantity of good deeds in order to get paradise; if you perform less than this quantity you don't get in. That's completely untrue. They don't realize that in Islam, paradise is not all one level. There are different levels in paradise, the higher the level the greater the reward. The better you are in this life, the greater your reward in the next.
The minimum required limit to get to paradise is to simply believe in God and His Messenger and to abide by His commands, and when one sins - which is something all human beings do - to repent to God and seek His forgiveness. If one just performs their basic obligations and avoids major sins God will grant them paradise by His will. Then after that is the minimum possible limit to enter paradise. If someone believed in God and His Messenger but indulged in major sins or continually abandoned religious obligations, they will be purified of their sins in Hell before they are admitted into paradise. The Prophet told us that God will continue to remove people from Hell until He removes those who had only an atom's weight of faith in their hearts, having never done any other good (Sahîh Bukhârî).
As above.
Regards
Interesting. Do you have citations for the above in the Quran, particularly that last sentence?
Peace