Christin Missionary Against Islam

[Woodrow]

Why? and what do u think about muslim missionaries today?

First be aware I state I am opposed to prostylyzation. Perhaps I have the wrong concept of prostylization. To me prostylization is going into other peoples homes and condeming them for not being Muslim. To me it is not setting an example of what Islam is nor is it effective in winning the hearts of people.

Then again I have never met a Muslim missionary and I never had a Muslim approach me to become Muslim when I was an Agnostic. Perhaps my views would be different if I knew what it was a Muslim Missionary does.

 

[north_malaysian]

prostylization is going into other peoples homes and condeming them for not being Muslim.

Ohh, this kind of missions.... never heard of it done by Muslims.

Then again I have never met a Muslim missionary and I never had a Muslim approach me to become Muslim when I was an Agnostic. Perhaps my views would be different if I knew what it was a Muslim Missionary does.

When did u converted to Islam, because I think this mass production of Muslim missionaries just started in 2000. From what I've heard tablighi jemaat sent 25,000 missionaries to China.

 

[Woodrow]

Ohh, this kind of missions.... never heard of it done by Muslims.



When did u converted to Islam, because I think this mass production of Muslim missionaries just started in 2000. From what I've heard tablighi jemaat sent 25,000 missionaries to China.

I reverted just last year in March of 2005

 

[Phil12123]

The world today is not like the middle ages or medieval times. Today, at least in the West, you as a Muslim can preach all you want to anyone you want. Many may ignore you but no one would arrest you. Not so, unfortuately, in Muslim countries where they have no freedom of religion to spread the truth if it disagrees with the official state religion of Islam.

Yes I agree totally to that however , you did not seem to get my point and diveresed away. Im saying is the world of the west today are not practicing christian laws in their judical systems (their govermental system) they are practicing secular system. If they were truely practicing a christian system or a christian state then we would have a different type of goverment other than Bush administration or Blairs office. Today in the US , strip clubs are allowed (against the bible) and prostitution allowed(also goes against christian judical laws) these are simple examples that the US is not truely practicing the christian law.

I'm not getting your point because your point is based on misinformation. In the U.S. there is separation of church and state. There is no "christian system or a christian state." No religion determines what is permitted or not permitted. Things that are permitted, such as strip clubs, are condemned by Christians but the secular state permits them under the freedoms guaranteed by the constitution. No one is allowed to force his religious beliefs on anyone else. So an atheist is free to go to the strip club, for example, and no one can force him to believe he shouldn't. Of course, Christians try to do what they can, within the secular law framework, to limit such things, like with zoning laws, etc.

Now lets look back through history at an era which did practice a christian state, i.e. the church. The church were always specificying how they are the deciples and sons of god and how theier system must be practicied as civil law and govermental law. So lets look at how they used to apply these laws. They used to follow the bible and at the same time anyone who would go against their teachings (apostates) would be killed.

What history book are you reading? Are you talking about the Catholic Inquisition?

In a point of history in that time many christians argued against the tirinitarian system and were slaughetered in masses by the church.

Again, where and when do you read that in any history?

So now lets say America today wants to follow the christian system 100% unlike what its doing today , then If I as a muslim go and preach my religion I WOULD BE SLAUGHTERED by the church because im going against their beleif. Thus your faith my friend does not tolerate other religions , and dont say United states because US is not a fully christian land or country thats why its ok for muslims to preach there not because your religion is tolerant.

First, that is a strawman argument. America does not follow, and can't follow, "the christian system 100%" because there is no such thing. You would NOT be slaughtered by any church for going against its beliefs, not today anyway. There are many different religions practicing their beliefs in America. No ONE is allowed to be a state religion, not Christianity, not any other. ALL religions are tolerated. So your whole argument is senseless.

Peace

 

[north_malaysian]

I reverted just last year in March of 2005

Wow, and no Muslim missionaries preaching to you in texas? Maybe this method is only used to islamized the 3rd world nations' non muslims.

So the next Ramadhan, will be your first Ramadhan in your life? I love Ramadhan.

 

[Phil12123]

First be aware I state I am opposed to prostylyzation. Perhaps I have the wrong concept of prostylization. To me prostylization is going into other peoples homes and condeming them for not being Muslim. To me it is not setting an example of what Islam is nor is it effective in winning the hearts of people.

I had to look that word up. It is "proselyting" or "proselytizing" or "proselytism" and the noun means "the practice of making converts."

I don't think I would make many converts by going into a Muslim home and condemning them for being Muslim, or into a non-Muslim home and condemning them for not being a Muslim.

As a Christian, I am commanded ("the Great Commission") to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to everyone, or to make disciples of all nations. Obviously, making disciples = making converts. So a Christian is commanded to proselytize. But in a Muslim country, the task is nearly impossible if to be a convert a Muslim is guilty of treason, as you say he should be prosecuted for. Talk about intolerance! And the Quran says there is no compulsion??? Where is the freedom of conscience, the freedom to believe whatever I want to believe. Why would that be anyone's business but my own?

Peace

 

[avk]

Al salam aleikom brothers and sisters,
this is a repost of something I posted eariler in this forum :
Dear muslims brothers I will always say as muslims we will always have the right to preach our religion.

If the country wanted to ask everyone for the freedom of expression , then why dont they offer drugs and needles and whomever chooses to use them uses them. the same concept is applied to islamic countries against teaching of christian missionaries under their jurisdiction.

As for christians well , the same concept existed in the old testament which you beleive its the word of god ; so why not god is applying the same for islam, evidently its wrong by christians to think otherwise because the same concept exists in the old testmant which you guys beleive its the word of god.
"Whomever preaches against another god will be stoned to death" so evidently speaking god applied such a law in the old testmant
As muslims , Mohammad (SAW) taught us that our message must reach and an islamic state must be in action in order for a muslim community to stand tall.

As christians , Jesus (AS) perfectly said in your new testament , "My kingdom is not of this world , but the next" so this clearly shows how christians teaching dont have to have a christian state.

So christians brothers, if god of the old testament did preach about killing people who preach about another god , why dont you accept it for islam???


PS: Sister Crystal4Peace , sister can you please contact me inshalla I maybe needing for you assistance in a certain matter. Inshalla the best


as for the verse in the noble quran :" there is no compulsion in religion" it only applies to people of the book or non muslims. But does not apply to muslims
Al salam aleikom

 

[dougmusr]

That is true. Yet I am opposed to prostylization. I feel that the best way to teach others about Islam is to live a life that is in the best manner possible. To be honest to others in replies to their question to try to set an example of what life as a Muslim is like. Then if others desire to know of my beliefs to share them with them. I feel I share through my actions better then I ever could through words. As I speak freely and open of my love of Islam here, I am not imposing myself upon others as people that come to this forum are aware it is a Muslim forum and they should expect that the forum is about Islam and what we believe.

I think you would agree that the prophets your faith reveres did not share your feelings about prostylization or they would not have paid for it with their lives. It would seem to me that you would follow the example of those you felt God held in honor for their faith.

 

[Phil12123]

If the country wanted to ask everyone for the freedom of expression , then why dont they offer drugs and needles and whomever chooses to use them uses them. the same concept is applied to islamic countries against teaching of christian missionaries under their jurisdiction.

Not sure your analogy applies. "Freedom of expression" should permit people to say whatever they want, with certain well recognized exceptions (you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, etc.). Using drugs is not saying anything; it is conduct that can be prohibited for the good of the offender and the society he is a member of.

Every country is sovereign. It is true, therefore, that any country can make laws prohibiting the preaching of the Christian Gospel, as Saudi Arabia has done, for example. Christians within such country and subject to its jurisdiction must obey its laws or be prepared to face the consequences. A similar situation existed when Peter was preaching and the Jews ordered him to stop. His response? It is recorded in Acts 5:29 - - But Peter and the apostles replied, "We must obey God rather than men." The consequence? The high priest and council did not like that and "took counsel to slay them" (verse 33). But a very wise Pharisee named Gamaliel advised against that, saying,

38. "And so my advice is, leave these men alone. If what they teach and do is merely on their own, it will soon be overthrown.
39. But if it is of God, you will not be able to stop them, lest you find yourselves fighting even against God.''
40. The Council accepted his advice, called in the apostles, had them beaten, and then told them never again to speak in the name of Jesus, and finally let them go.
41. They left the Council chamber rejoicing that God had counted them worthy to suffer dishonor for his name.
42. And every day, in the Temple and in their home Bible classes, they continued to teach and preach that Jesus is the Messiah.

As for christians well , the same concept existed in the old testament which you beleive its the word of god ; so why not god is applying the same for islam, evidently its wrong by christians to think otherwise because the same concept exists in the old testmant which you guys beleive its the word of god.
"Whomever preaches against another god will be stoned to death" so evidently speaking god applied such a law in the old testmant
As muslims , Mohammad (SAW) taught us that our message must reach and an islamic state must be in action in order for a muslim community to stand tall.

As christians , Jesus (AS) perfectly said in your new testament , "My kingdom is not of this world , but the next" so this clearly shows how christians teaching dont have to have a christian state.

So, what you're saying, if I understand your post, is that Islam needs the laws and acts of an islamic state "for a muslim community to stand tall"? Islam needs laws to hold it up, or the people would not follow it? So what you have is forced believers, making people believe by force of the laws, etc.? You need compulsion among Muslims or Islam would fall?

So christians brothers, if god of the old testament did preach about killing people who preach about another god , why dont you accept it for islam???

Because the God of the Old Testament is not saying it.

as for the verse in the noble quran :" there is no compulsion in religion" it only applies to people of the book or non muslims. But does not apply to muslims

Please explain. The "no compulsion" verse applies to non-Muslims? Meaning what? Non-Muslims are under no compulsion to follow Islam? But they can't follow their own religion, without being killed?

Peace

 

[dougmusr]

Al salam aleikom brothers and sisters,
this is a repost of something I posted eariler in this forum :
Dear muslims brothers I will always say as muslims we will always have the right to preach our religion.

If the country wanted to ask everyone for the freedom of expression , then why dont they offer drugs and needles and whomever chooses to use them uses them. the same concept is applied to islamic countries against teaching of christian missionaries under their jurisdiction.

As for christians well , the same concept existed in the old testament which you beleive its the word of god ; so why not god is applying the same for islam, evidently its wrong by christians to think otherwise because the same concept exists in the old testmant which you guys beleive its the word of god.
"Whomever preaches against another god will be stoned to death" so evidently speaking god applied such a law in the old testmant
As muslims , Mohammad (SAW) taught us that our message must reach and an islamic state must be in action in order for a muslim community to stand tall.

As christians , Jesus (AS) perfectly said in your new testament , "My kingdom is not of this world , but the next" so this clearly shows how christians teaching dont have to have a christian state.

So christians brothers, if god of the old testament did preach about killing people who preach about another god , why dont you accept it for islam???


PS: Sister Crystal4Peace , sister can you please contact me inshalla I maybe needing for you assistance in a certain matter. Inshalla the best


as for the verse in the noble quran :" there is no compulsion in religion" it only applies to people of the book or non muslims. But does not apply to muslims
Al salam aleikom

I'm under the impression that Islam holds that the Jewish and Christian scriptures were once in a pure form and were given by the God of Islam. While Islam may doubt the accuracy of these writings as they exist today, wouldn't that make Christians errant Muslims, not followers of other God's?

As a Christian, I would follow this parable of Jesus when it comes to followers of other religions.

Mat 13:24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 "but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.
26 "But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 "So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' 28 "He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?' 29 "But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 'Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." ' "

When Christ returns, and I know you believe He will, it will be up to Him to uproot those who are truly in error. If a person is to receive eternal life, it must be received prior to death. By killing those who follow other teachings, you have taken the judgment seat from Christ and sealed their fate eternally.
God, as I understand, does not consider a forced conversion to be true saving faith. I think Christ was saying that the grace and forgiveness of God permits people to live who deserve death for their disobedience in order to offer them a chance to repent.

 

[Woodrow]

Wow, and no Muslim missionaries preaching to you in texas? Maybe this method is only used to islamized the 3rd world nations' non muslims.

So the next Ramadhan, will be your first Ramadhan in your life? I love Ramadhan.

It will be my first Ramadhan, as a Muslim. All my life I was a strong believer in the value of fasting as a means of feeding the spirit. So, in that sense the fasting part will be familiar, but now I will also know the joy of fasting as a Muslim. The best part is I now live with my daughter and her family, so there will be a plus to Ramadhan.

 

[avk]

The old testament perfectly states:
“If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.

 

[dougmusr]

The old testament perfectly states:
“If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.[\Quote]

I'm glad you recognize the authority of the Old Testament in matters of faith. If you are using this verse to justify killing people of other faiths, then you must also recognize that the verse was addressed to Israel. Are you saying that you feel Israel would be justified in killing Muslims if they feel the God of Islam is not the God of Israel?

 

[avk]

Al salam aleikom ,
What im saying my friend is this:
1- You beleive that its impossible for islam to be from god because god is not giving any "democratic" laws concerning faith.

2- Now in your old testament (which you beleive is the word of god) god ordered to kill someone preaching against god.

3- Now if your god of the old testament accepted these laws then its possible that he put the same laws for islam.

4- As for me I do not beleive in the old testament because the quran clearly said (yo hare fo na ho ) they deceptively rewrite it (Im not sure the definiton of the word in english) , however if you come and attack islam for not being so democratic about other faiths , will the concept was made by god before so why not in islam.

 

[north_malaysian]

It will be my first Ramadhan, as a Muslim. All my life I was a strong believer in the value of fasting as a means of feeding the spirit. So, in that sense the fasting part will be familiar, but now I will also know the joy of fasting as a Muslim. The best part is I now live with my daughter and her family, so there will be a plus to Ramadhan.

I love Ramadhan... so much... the nights are different!!!!

 

[dougmusr]

Al salam aleikom ,
What im saying my friend is this:
1- You beleive that its impossible for islam to be from god because god is not giving any "democratic" laws concerning faith.

2- Now in your old testament (which you beleive is the word of god) god ordered to kill someone preaching against god.

3- Now if your god of the old testament accepted these laws then its possible that he put the same laws for islam.

4- As for me I do not beleive in the old testament because the quran clearly said (yo hare fo na ho ) they deceptively rewrite it (Im not sure the definiton of the word in english) , however if you come and attack islam for not being so democratic about other faiths , will the concept was made by god before so why not in islam.

Could you give me the specific Quran reference you are referring to in assertion 4? Also, could you provide scripture references to one or more Old Testament passages which you believe were deceptively altered, and justify your claim that the original text was altered by providing the original as well as the altered version?

Here's how I understand your statements thus far. The Old Testament verse you cited says that followers of other gods should be killed. The Old Testament was deceptively rewritten. The verse you cite might have been added as part of this deception, and in fact God may not have even commanded it. I should therefore understand why the God of Islam would include in the Quran a command similar to one in the errant and deceptively rewritten Old Testament. Would this be correct?

 

[avk]

Could you give me the specific Quran reference you are referring to in assertion 4? Also, could you provide scripture references to one or more Old Testament passages which you believe were deceptively altered, and justify your claim that the original text was altered by providing the original as well as the altered version?

Brother of the book , read this reference of the Book of God inshalla surah 2:79


Here's how I understand your statements thus far. The Old Testament verse you cited says that followers of other gods should be killed. The Old Testament was deceptively rewritten. The verse you cite might have been added as part of this deception, and in fact God may not have even commanded it. I should therefore understand why the God of Islam would include in the Quran a command similar to one in the errant and deceptively rewritten Old Testament. Would this be correct?

Brother Im not saying this verse was put in there, I do not know if was altered or not this is not what im focusing on. But another brother of the book in this thread commented about the treason of people preaching publicly christianity in islamic states. He says its un fair for islamic state to not give the public the right to decide. Thus what im saying is if you cannot accept this law from god in the Quran why do you accept it in then old testament.

Anyway , I beleive the whole conversation was diverted away from the real subject, and you misunderstood my thesis.

salam

 

[dougmusr]

Thanks for the Quran reference. Pardon me since I don't know Arabic, but in three english translations, it does not mention the Bible but the Book. Nevertheless, even if the Book means the Bible, these verses don't say the Bible was altered, it is more like a judgement on those who would do it, particularly for monetary gain. So I did a quick search to find out what the Quran has to say about Christians and the Bible. Here's what I came up with.

002.079
YUSUFALI: Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
PICKTHAL: Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.
SHAKIR: Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

This verse seems to support the scriptures preceeding the Quran.

004.136
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His messenger and the Scripture which He hath revealed unto His messenger, and the Scripture which He revealed aforetime. Whoso disbelieveth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers and the Last Day, he verily hath wandered far astray.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

These seem to show that God recognizes the Bible as being His Word.

005.068
YUSUFALI: Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
PICKTHAL: Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.
SHAKIR: Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

005.069
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
SHAKIR: Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

In the following verse, God declared the scriptures trustworthy and told the Prophet to verify his revelation against them. This means as late as 632AD the scriptures were accurate.

010.094
YUSUFALI: If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
PICKTHAL: And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.
SHAKIR: But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

In fact, God even promised to protect them from alteration.

006.115
YUSUFALI: The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.
PICKTHAL: Perfected is the Word of thy Lord in truth and justice. There is naught that can change His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
SHAKIR: And the word of your Lord has been accomplished truly and justly; there is none who can change His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

The Prophet even liked Christians.

005.082
YUSUFALI: Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
PICKTHAL: Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.
SHAKIR: Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.

Thanks again for the reference. I'll have to study the Qran some more.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

This may be true, I dont know. Yet, it does not answer the question. Should the same penalty be given to a Muslim that attempts to convert a non-muslim?

If they forcibly try to probably..because there is no compulsion in Islam. A Muslim cannot force a non muslim to convert. The most we can do it tell them about it and invite them. If they do not want to listen its up to them. Allah guides who he chooses.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I had to look that word up. It is "proselyting" or "proselytizing" or "proselytism" and the noun means "the practice of making converts."

I don't think I would make many converts by going into a Muslim home and condemning them for being Muslim, or into a non-Muslim home and condemning them for not being a Muslim.

As a Christian, I am commanded ("the Great Commission") to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to everyone, or to make disciples of all nations. Obviously, making disciples = making converts. So a Christian is commanded to proselytize. But in a Muslim country, the task is nearly impossible if to be a convert a Muslim is guilty of treason, as you say he should be prosecuted for. Talk about intolerance! And the Quran says there is no compulsion??? Where is the freedom of conscience, the freedom to believe whatever I want to believe. Why would that be anyone's business but my own?

Peace

Dont base actions of some Muslims on all. Those who know that compulsion is not allowed will know not too force another. Ive had people tell me about Christianity and i respect it because if i was in there position i prolly would too. I thank Allah for the religion im in.