Confusing Religions

[alcurad]

human life is much more important than a bunch of carved stones.
grace seeker, I understand that these things still happen, rather I was pointing out that they are not generally accepted as part of the religion anymore.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

Thank you all for your comments, I wonder if we can follow on from our friend Woodrows post.

Woodrow;
Back in the stone age when i was taking Sociology 101 I recall hearing that the closer beliefs were to each other, the stronger the disagreements became. The worse wars have been fought among people that were similar than among those with totaly different views

This seems to be true with religion. The Abrahamic Faiths are so similar that to an outsider they would appear to be one religion.

Perhaps this has to do with human arrrogance and an inner view that those who are similar are corrupting what we believe. There seems to be fear that when something is similar but has differences, it is an attempt to corrupt what we believe. In some ways that is true. We see that happen with Evangelicals, Fanatics, Zealots, Zionists, etc. As a Muslim I tend to feel that Jews and Christians had lost and/or corrupted the True Teachings. I also feel that a Christian feels the same about Muslims and Jews, A Jew probably feels the same about Christians and Muslims. Naturally the 3 of us feel that the Hindus, Buddhists etc are so far off base that they can not corrupt our thinking.

It takes a Human to have the ability to twist Love of God(swt) into a war. It is like siblings fighting over which one loves his parents the most and kicking the tail of each other because they do not love their parents.

Human arrogance is a great trial we all need to overcome. Talk about the Greater Jihad, that is a Jihad we all fight in. Sadly, it seems that too many of us are loosing the battle and think we have won it

God would know what is in human nature, after all he created us. I have highlighted a couple of paragraphs, and just wonder how this relates to Muslims and Christians.

How should we treat each other, should we try and convert the other, what does God want from Muslims and Christians who live as neighbours?

In the spirit of praying for greater interfaith friendship

Eric

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

Thank you all for your comments, I wonder if we can follow on from our friend Woodrows post.



God would know what is in human nature, after all he created us. I have highlighted a couple of paragraphs, and just wonder how this relates to Muslims and Christians.

How should we treat each other, should we try and convert the other, what does God want from Muslims and Christians who live as neighbours?

In the spirit of praying for greater interfaith friendship

Eric

To the Ummah,

While considering our similarities, I feel that many of my brothers and sisters here are forgetting our DIFFERENCES!

For Pete's sake brothers and sisters, Allah sent Prophet Muhammad for a REASON. That reason was to CORRECT our Christian and Jewish brethering.


Please, in all of this interfaith talk, let us not lose sight of our mission as MUSLIMS! Do the Jews or Christians say La ilaha ilala???


[Call (all mankind) unto your Lord's way with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in the most kindly manner: for, behold, your Lord knows best as to who stray from His path, and best knows He as to who are the right-guided] (An-Nahl 16:125).

 

[Keltoi]

To the Ummah,

While considering our similarities, I feel that many of my brothers and sisters here are forgetting our DIFFERENCES!

For Pete's sake brothers and sisters, Allah sent Prophet Muhammad for a REASON. That reason was to CORRECT our Christian and Jewish brethering.


Please, in all of this interfaith talk, let us not lose sight of our mission as MUSLIMS! Do the Jews or Christians say La ilaha ilala???


[Call (all mankind) unto your Lord's way with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in the most kindly manner: for, behold, your Lord knows best as to who stray from His path, and best knows He as to who are the right-guided] (An-Nahl 16:125).

I understand this is an element of both Christianity and Islam, but I think this was part of the issue Eric brought up. Is the relationship between Christianity and Islam all about who is right and who is wrong? Or is there a possibility of simple plain old co-existence?

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I understand this is an element of both Christianity and Islam, but I think this was part of the issue Eric brought up. Is the relationship between Christianity and Islam all about who is right and who is wrong? Or is there a possibility of simple plain old co-existence?

That is up to God who brought both religions into existence.


They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Quran 19:88

Assuredly ye utter a disastrous thing 19:89

Whereby almost the heavens are torn, and the earth is split asunder and the mountains fall in ruins 19:90


Seems pretty important that we should clear up who is right and wrong...no?


Of course we can coexist peacefully. BUT that does not preclude us from DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSING the trinity.

Muslims can absolutely coexist in peace. But never expect us to acknowledge any other religion as even a vague alternative to Islam, which teaches that they are distortions.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Frankly, I think a great deal of people of all religions and nationalities are hypocrites. They are quick to condemn every misdeed done by others, but ignore when their people do the same or something similar. It's a fact of life, isn't it.

I agree. You will note in my original post on that topic, I cited things done all across the globe and by various religious groups, but began by focusing on my own. In general, I think we excuse ourselves way to quickly. Jesus even commented on this: "Why do you see the speck in your brother's eye but fail to notice the beam in your own eye?" (Matthew 7:3)

 

[Grace Seeker]

human life is much more important than a bunch of carved stones.
grace seeker, I understand that these things still happen, rather I was pointing out that they are not generally accepted as part of the religion anymore.

Yes, I understand what you were saying. But what I was trying to point out is that even people who don't do such things seem to be willing to defend those who do. Hence my view that religion is still used to excuse things that for me are the equivelant of burning witches.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I understand this is an element of both Christianity and Islam, but I think this was part of the issue Eric brought up. Is the relationship between Christianity and Islam all about who is right and who is wrong? Or is there a possibility of simple plain old co-existence?

That is up to God who brought both religions into existence.

Why is it up to God? Does not God/Allah command us to live at peace with each other? Does that not make it up to us to either keep his command or reject it and go our own way?

Seems pretty important that we should clear up who is right and wrong...no?

Sure, but we clear it up with conversation and debate, not hostility.

Of course we can coexist peacefully. BUT that does not preclude us from DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSING the trinity.

Muslims can absolutely coexist in peace. But never expect us to acknowledge any other religion as even a vague alternative to Islam, which teaches that they are distortions.

Of course not. Nor will I ever do less than to confess Jesus to be both "my Lord and my God." But I don't see how your lack of making that confession, nor your repudiation of the Trinity as a justifiable reason for me to attack you. Nor would I hope you see my proclaimation of my faith and lack of acknowledging Muhammad as THE prophet of Allah to be justification for attacking me.

Co-existence means giving the other room to actively live out their faith.


Nor should we stand idly by when others falsely turn to faith as ways to convince others that their own political agendas of explotation, imperilism, colonialism, or terrorism are justified.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Why is it up to God? Does not God/Allah command us to live at peace with each other? Does that not make it up to us to either keep his command or reject it and go our own way?


Sure, but we clear it up with conversation and debate, not hostility.

Of course not. Nor will I ever do less than to confess Jesus to be both "my Lord and my God." But I don't see how your lack of making that confession, nor your repudiation of the Trinity as a justifiable reason for me to attack you. Nor would I hope you see my proclaimation of my faith and lack of acknowledging Muhammad as THE prophet of Allah to be justification for attacking me.

Co-existence means giving the other room to actively live out their faith.


Nor should we stand idly by when others falsely turn to faith as ways to convince others that their own political agendas of explotation, imperilism, colonialism, or terrorism are justified.

To clarify, the bulk of my post was not addressing any inability to live in peace but rather the "does it matter who is right or wrong" part.

 

[Woodrow]

To the Ummah,

While considering our similarities, I feel that many of my brothers and sisters here are forgetting our DIFFERENCES!

Our differences are very important. Yet, at the same time we need to keep in mind that our differences should be shared as an act of love and not flaunted as indignant self righteousness.

For Pete's sake brothers and sisters, Allah sent Prophet Muhammad for a REASON. That reason was to CORRECT our Christian and Jewish brethering.

True. This also places a tremendous burden upon us, to CORRECT, not to mistreat or to belittle.

Please, in all of this interfaith talk, let us not lose sight of our mission as MUSLIMS! Do the Jews or Christians say La ilaha ilala???

I do not know about the Jews, but most Christians recite the Apostles creed which begins with "I believe in one God......" No Christians do not recite the Shahadah as we do, but I think most sincerly believe they say things that carry similar meaning. This is a difficult area for us to educate Non-Muslims in. It often leads to anger and animosity. It is difficult for us to keep a cool head and not become angered when we see what we believe is a misuse of our belief or a blatant refusal to see the error.

This is a two way street, Christians also feel we are doing the same to their beliefs and understanding. We need to keep in mind when we are teaching, correcting, that failure to understand does not indicate hatred.

[Call (all mankind) unto your Lord's way with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in the most kindly manner: for, behold, your Lord knows best as to who stray from His path, and best knows He as to who are the right-guided] (An-Nahl 16:125).

Very true and let us always keep in mind:
"and argue with them in the most kindly manner"

When an argument becomes embittered with anger, it is no longer arguing, it becomes a fight and it will be a fight with only losers.

Argue, debate and teach but we must do it with kindness and not out of personal desire to prove somebody is wrong.

Remember, to prove somebody is wrong, is not proof we are right.

I think sometimes we loose track that it is our burden to prove we are correct, if we are to correct another's errors. We have no need to prove another person is wrong, that falls into place and becomes an accepted fact, when we prove ourselves right. Too often we waste too much time and create barriers by mistakenly thinking , if we prove somebody is wrong, it is proof we are correct

As an analogy:

Man A believes 5+5=6 Man B believes 5+5=7. Man A proves to man B that 5+5 does not equal 7 and walks away believing he is correct and 5+5=6

Man C comes along and proves 5+5=10. His argument is finished, he does not have to prove Man A and Man B are wrong. The important thing is he is able to show he is correct and it is up to A and B to decide what to do with the truth.

The burden of proof is upon us to prove we are correct, not to prove somebody is wrong.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Very true bro Woodrow.

Proving myself true instead of proving them incorrect huh....

What the heck, I give it a shot!

 

[Woodrow]

I think if all of us concentrated on shwowing and living what we believe to be true, it would end the battles brought about by trying to prove the other guy is false.

To me it makes no difference if Christianity, Judaism, Hinuism, Taoism etc are true or false. I am Muslim simply because I found Islam to be true, not because anything else is false.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I think if all of us concentrated on shwowing and living what we believe to be true, it would end the battles brought about by trying to prove the other guy is false.

To me it makes no difference if Christianity, Judaism, Hinuism, Taoism etc are true or false. I am Muslim simply because I found Islam to be true, not because anything else is false.

I agree with your first paragraph but must disagree with your second. Yes, our Ummah is an example to every other nation in the world. Nothing comes close to our ethics, prayer, and unity. If we displayed the characteristics of the Prophet pbuh more often, things would be so much better for Muslim and non- Muslim alike.

Religion is more than just a choice of " whatever fits you". If peoples' choice was subjective like that, we wouldnt be punished for choosing the wrong one.

It is extremely important that we find the TRUTH. It is the only way we will be able to truly please Allah and bring justice to this world. What would happen if choice of religion became as subjective and personal as choosing a favorite movie???

We thank Allah that as Muslims, we have THE truth.

 

[doorster]

....

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Woodrow my friend;

Man A believes 5+5=6 Man B believes 5+5=7. Man A proves to man B that 5+5 does not equal 7 and walks away believing he is correct and 5+5=6

Man C comes along and proves 5+5=10. His argument is finished, he does not have to prove Man A and Man B are wrong. The important thing is he is able to show he is correct and it is up to A and B to decide what to do with the truth.

God may have given us that mathematical simplicity to make our religions add up to ten in our own eyes, but we are not able to show others that proof. God has left us with a real dilemma, Christianity’s 5+5 appears to add up to 6, 7, 8 or 9, or any number apart from ten, amongst all the denominations and to non Christians. Similarly with Islam 5+5 appears to add up to any number apart from ten to outsiders.

When our religion adds up to ten in our own eyes it is a validation from God that he exists for me in this way. The validation comes at a price, because we have instructions to do things, to change ourselves, to struggle against temptations.

I am a Catholic and it gives me a greater joy to work and share in the community with Christians of other denominations than it does to work with other Catholics. I would find it a greater joy still to share and work with non-Christians, but sadly there are no places of worship in my neighbourhood.

Our friend glo on this forum has recently said that her Christian community is starting to build friendships with the local mosque. I find this a great inspiration when people of seemingly opposing beliefs make an effort to get to know each other openly.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

 

[جوري]

Wrong still remains wrong - if I killed someone, it wouldn't excuse another man's theft.

You should compare things that share some semblance, if you wish to loan your statement some credence? We are not comparing murder to theft.. we are comparing destruction of thousands of year old structures of ancient Iraq to the destruction of a quasi modern day statue of a worshiped effigy.

Again putting things into perspective will allow you to define your priorities better... except in this case Americans did it to loot priceless historical pieces, while in the afghans case, they did it to define that the deprivation of their citizens from basic human rights is far more important than leading folks astray through the restoration of a Buddha belly!

 

[Khalil_Allah]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

847

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."


This is the Catholic view, some other Christians do believe that only Christians can be saved, no matter what.

I love Catholicism. I used to think that Catholics were crazy, seeing the history of the Vatican. But you know, the more I learn about Catholics, the more similar I think we are.


We all have different paths to God. My grandmother is one of the most pious people I know. If I try to compete with her in doing good works, then I will lose because her entire day is devoted to helping others. But you know, she has no context for being a Muslim. She is acting just like a good Muslim, but if you ask her, then you would hear her say that Jesus died for her sins and she prays to him and worships him. We think that this is not good to do, but it is how she was taught and how she practices her faith in God.

He guides whoever He wishes on whatever terms He wishes. A Muslim cannot expect that everyone who turns to God will see Him as He is described in Islamic texts. Rather people see God according to their own experiences. I learned about several religions and took the time to consider God in each context, eventually accepting Islam as the accurate account of God. But my grandmother was raised in the church, has been in the church for probably 60 years, and will die serving the Lord as she understands from the church. But you know I am no closer to God than she is, even if I think the Islamic perspective is correct.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Likewise,I try to avoid initiating an insult against other religions lest they retaliate by insulting Allah, Quraan and Prophets. on the other hand if they were to quote a distortion of my faith, I see no choice but show them the mirror by pointing out absurdities of their own position

That is an excellent practice. For myself, when someone makes a comment about Christianity that I feel is a distortion of my faith, even more than wanting to show them a mirror that points out similiar absurdities in theirs, I want to try to correct that distortion with the truth as I understand it. (Not that I always put my will into the practice I intend.)

He guides whoever He wishes on whatever terms He wishes. A Muslim cannot expect that everyone who turns to God will see Him as He is described in Islamic texts. Rather people see God according to their own experiences.

Very insightful.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I love Catholicism. I used to think that Catholics were crazy, seeing the history of the Vatican. But you know, the more I learn about Catholics, the more similar I think we are.


We all have different paths to God. My grandmother is one of the most pious people I know. If I try to compete with her in doing good works, then I will lose because her entire day is devoted to helping others. But you know, she has no context for being a Muslim. She is acting just like a good Muslim, but if you ask her, then you would hear her say that Jesus died for her sins and she prays to him and worships him. We think that this is not good to do, but it is how she was taught and how she practices her faith in God.

He guides whoever He wishes on whatever terms He wishes. A Muslim cannot expect that everyone who turns to God will see Him as He is described in Islamic texts. Rather people see God according to their own experiences. I learned about several religions and took the time to consider God in each context, eventually accepting Islam as the accurate account of God. But my grandmother was raised in the church, has been in the church for probably 60 years, and will die serving the Lord as she understands from the church. But you know I am no closer to God than she is, even if I think the Islamic perspective is correct.

Again, it is great that your grandmother is so pious but your comments are not representative of Islamic theology.

I think Muslims need to be reminded waht it means to be a Muslim.


Tell me Khalil, if there are so many different ways to Allah, why does Allah say this:

"He is the One who sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, to make it prevail over all other religions. God suffices as a witness." 48:24

The fact that your grandmother is, in your own words, more "pious" than you, that is because Allah chose to grant her a good FITRAH. If she were Muslim, her fitrah would be EVEN more refined and perfectly directed towards Allah.

BTW Catholocism, with the pope, clergy, idols, etc is probably the FARTHEST Christian sect from Islam.


WHy is so hard to grasp that Islam's truth isn't PERSONAL, it is UNIVERSAL!
God is God, and no distorted personal experience changes that. He is not some figment of your imagination to tailor to your WHIMS!

Disagree with me? Go ahead bring up your Islamic proofs and I will bring mine.

 

[Khalil_Allah]

I wish that you would be more calm about this because you are conveying a lot of energy through your keyboard, akhi.

I am not saying that I believe that Christianity is true in its own way and Islam is true in its own way.

I believe that Rasulullah saws taught us the truth about Allah swt and the nature of the world. The message of the Prophet saws is the truth and this belief is what makes me Muslim and my grandmother's non-belief in this is what makes her not a Muslim.

Islam prevails over the other religions and will continue to do so in the future both in committed followers and in population alone. It seems clear that there are more of us striving to pass on our religion to our children and practicing in front of them. This is how I interpret 48:24. It does not mean that it is our duty as Muslims to make sure that Islam is prevailing over other religions in the sense that I should be trying to convert my pious grandmother and tell her that her beliefs are wrong. Of course I think that she would find greater happiness if she reverted because she would be aligning her beliefs with the TRUTH akhi. I commend her because her life looks like Siratal-mustaqim; it is filled with good works. Of course it is not because she doesn't pray like we do and she doesn't confess shahada.

Comparatively, who is better? The one who confesses shahada and then goes on to commit sins and not pray and these things or the one who does not but commits the life to good works and the worship of God in her best understanding? Only Allah knows...


I'm getting angry with you right now akhi, so I have to pause for a moment.

And with respect to the Catholics, they are not the farthest from Islam. They are the ones who believe in the rewards of good works. Among the Catholics I know are the only christians I have met who seek repentance for their sins. They are the ones who do not just move from sin to sin and saying "well, jesus died for forgiveness of my sins." (although I do not hold that all protestants do this, this attitude seems to prevail)


So akhi, why don't you remind us all what it means to be muslim? Why don't you go find your Islamic proofs in spite of my beliefs, or better for the sake of Allah, and come show us all how to be Muslim. I'm just a revert man, what the hell do I know? estaghfirallah, I'm sorry for my anger, but if I perceive your attitude correctly, then I think that you would benefit from changing the way you think.

Give them the benefit of the doubt and love them because they are striving in the path of Allah whether they know it or not.