Conversion by the Sword and other misconceptions.

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vpb

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Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

What evidence do you have for the claim that the copies of the Quran prior to Uthman varied in meaning? This "***********" website has the history of Quranic compilation.

my dear brother, they usually mixup the word 'different way of readings' to the 'different meaning', and they don';t understand the term 'qiryat'. So that's why the mix up a little bit things :D

Upon Muhammad's first contact with the Angel Jibrail, he did return to his only wife, Khadija, for comfort. Imagine for one moment your reaction to being squeezed by an Angel.
yeah that's the problem, the whole 23 years , she is describing them, with the first act, which nobody knew what was going on.

I am not going to reply back to this guy since I believe him to be a total nut case... but I speak Arabic fluently, and there is positively no confusion about the Arabic of the Quran and the Arabic that regular people speak. I speak a different Arabic from that of the Quran which is Arabic in its most eloquent and proper.. in fact any grammar we take in school, called Qawa3id, basis its Arabic on that of the Quran, so there is no confusion, Any Arabic speaking person will tell you that... He is just looking for excuses to be a moshrik... easy I suppose when your sins are forgiven to say and do as you fancy..
sometimes I'm thinking about that too, but sometimes I think I just owe to explain things due to their lack of knowledge. cuz it's funny when they make claims about something which they don't understand, but they think that we swallow stuff in Islam, and just say "ohhh i didn't know about that". It's like me going to tell a proffesional pingpong player, that don't throw the ball like this, cuz it spins, do this and that, without me even knowning what all those things mean.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

How does this relate to your claim of alteration & corruption?

Yes, the original Arabic of the Quran is different from that spoken in conversation today. Similar to the difference between Shakespear and Southern USA slang. What is the point? What evidence do you have for the claim that the copies of the Quran prior to Uthman varied in meaning? This "***********" website has the history of Quranic compilation.

http://www.***********/history/quran_compiled.htm Website is not coming up - do a Yahoo search for "Quran history" and select the first one.

Prove it. Do you have the "original" to show this claim?

We have been arguing this point that to pray to someone or to ask blessings from anyone other than the One God is elevating that person to "God-hood".

Give me some examples. I would like to read them. Yes, either Paul or Muhammad (pbuh) was a false prophet that preached falsehood to mislead people from the Straight path. We just differ on who we believe was a true prophet.

Upon Muhammad's first contact with the Angel Jibrail, he did return to his only wife, Khadija, for comfort. Imagine for one moment your reaction to being squeezed by an Angel.
I don't believe it was Jibrail, it was an angel impersonating Jibrail. I can see a greater testimony of God in Paul's life. Here is a zealot who used to consent to the killing of Christians. He would hunt them down like animals having them killed and arrested. Suddenly, he is changed, because Jesus blinded him saying "You are persecuting me" The Christians Paul was hunting down believed in the deity of Jesus - they were Christians of the early church.
By the way, you want prove about the other thing. OK, but the proof is not going to convince you of anything, so why ask for it? Nevertheless, I ‘ll give it to you. I thought you would know about “Satanic Verse” It commanded them to worship idols: “ …Those swans are exalted; Their intercession is expected; Their likes are not neglected.” Muhammad cancelled these verses from Allah.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

I don't believe it was Jibrail, it was an angel impersonating Jibrail.
certainly we don't care about what you believe. otherwise show proof.

By the way, you want prove about the other thing. OK, but the proof is not going to convince you of anything, so why ask for it? Nevertheless, I ‘ll give it to you. I thought you would know about “Satanic Verse” It commanded them to worship idols: “ …Those swans are exalted; Their intercession is expected; Their likes are not neglected.” Muhammad cancelled these verses from Allah.
who says that? the book "Satanic Verses" ???

Nobody ever commaned to worship idols, this is a pure lie, which I can't believe how you can believe it, bc it is compltetely against the Tawheed which Islam is based on. you know your points are not even worthy of replying
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

It was and is the trinity concept that has led to much bood shed. Islam is a religion of peace, but they believe in bringing it with the edge of the sword. For the first thousand years they were unchallenged. They would cut down Christians and anyone that stood in the way of Islam. That spirit is still there. It is dormant. It was the Christians that learned about Jihad from the Muslims. That was when the Catholics started to turn the tide.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

It was and is the trinity concept that has led to much bood shed. Islam is a religion of peace, but they believe in bringing it with the edge of the sword. For the first thousand years they were unchallenged.
Islam is a religion of peace, but Islam also allowes to fight against oppression.
The trinity didn't exist, it was later introduced, bc the Biblle (Injeel) could not be preserved due to the constant opression of jews at that time, so people had no freedom, so it was not a very good situtation to preserve the bible, and that's why everyone changed it to their own desires.
And do uhave any problem with Jihad? any problems with protecting your own land???

They would cut down Christians and anyone that stood in the way of Islam. That spirit is still there. It is dormant.
haha, where did you get this?
first, if muslims killed veryone who stood their way, then can you please tell me how come in places like Kosova, Albania there are majority of muslims, but yet in Bulgaria there are majority of christians? while we know the ottomans came through Bulgari to go Balkan? or how come the biggest muslim community is in Indonesia were there was no war with muslims ?? or how come in malaysia the majority are muslims yet there was no war with muslims? also please watch:
When the Moors Ruled Europe
http://video.google.co.uk/url?docid...+ruled&usg=AL29H20WJX2FBvUR35TwXggmIfVtzCHL9A

it's worthy of watching it.
It was the Christians that learned about Jihad from the Muslims. That was when the Catholics started to turn the tide.
look, whoever saw this statement in this forum, saw it. Don't repeat it again, or people will laugh at you, and you will look completely foolish. I dont' even think I should reply to this thread.

and btw, don't switch the subject :) jumping from revelation to wars. :) and please when u makek statement next time, post the proof straight away.
 
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Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

here is a bit of history by A HISTORIAN who is non-muslim

Mohammed The Prophet
By Prof. K. S. Ramakrishna Rao, Head of the Department of Philosophy,
Government College for Women University of Mysore, Mandya-571401 (Karnatika).

Re-printed from "Islam and Modern age", Hydrabad, March 1978.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the desert of Arabia was Mohammad born, according to Muslim historians, on April 20, 571. The name means highly praised. He is to me the greatest mind among all the sons of Arabia. He means so much more than all the poets and kings that preceded him in that impenetrable desert of red sand.
When he appeared Arabia was a desert -- a nothing. Out of nothing a new world was fashioned by the mighty spirit of Mohammad -- a new life, a new culture, a new civilization, a new kingdom which extended from Morocco to Indies and influenced the thought and life of three continents -- Asia, Africa and Europe.

When I thought of writing on Mohammad the prophet, I was a bit hesitant because it was to write about a religion I do not profess and it is a delicate matter to do so for there are many persons professing various religions and belonging to diverse school of thought and denominations even in same religion. Though it is sometimes, claimed that religion is entirely personal yet it can not be gain-said that it has a tendency to envelop the whole universe seen as well unseen. It somehow permeates something or other our hearts, our souls, our minds their conscious as well as subconscious and unconscious levels too. The problem assumes overwhelming importance when there is a deep conviction that our past, present and future all hang by the soft delicate, tender silked cord. If we further happen to be highly sensitive, the center of gravity is very likely to be always in a state of extreme tension. Looked at from this point of view, the less said about other religion the better. Let our religions be deeply hidden and embedded in the resistance of our innermost hearts fortified by unbroken seals on our lips.

But there is another aspect of this problem. Man lives in society. Our lives are bound with the lives of others willingly or unwillingly, directly or indirectly. We eat the food grown in the same soil, drink water, from the same the same spring and breathe the same air. Even while staunchly holding our own views, it would be helpful, if we try to adjust ourselves to our surroundings, if we also know to some extent, how the mind our neighbor moves and what the main springs of his actions are. From this angle of vision it is highly desirable that one should try to know all religions of the world, in the proper sprit, to promote mutual understanding and better appreciation of our neighborhood, immediate and remote.

Further, our thoughts are not scattered as appear to be on the surface. They have got themselves crystallized around a few nuclei in the form of great world religions and living faiths that guide and motivate the lives of millions that inhabit this earth of ours. It is our duty, in one sense if we have the ideal of ever becoming a citizen of the world before us, to make a little attempt to know the great religions and system of philosophy that have ruled mankind.

In spite of these preliminary remarks, the ground in these field of religion, where there is often a conflict between intellect and emotion is so slippery that one is constantly reminded of fools that rush in where angels fear to tread. It is also not so complex from another point of view. The subject of my writing is about the tenets of a religion which is historic and its prophet who is also a historic personality. Even a hostile critic like Sir William Muir speaking about the holy Quran says that. "There is probably in the world no other book which has remained twelve centuries with so pure text." I may also add Prophet Mohammad is also a historic personality, every event of whose life has been most carefully recorded and even the minutest details preserved intact for the posterity. His life and works are not wrapped in mystery.

My work today is further lightened because those days are fast disappearing when Islam was highly misrepresented by some of its critics for reasons political and otherwise. Prof. Bevan writes in Cambridge Medieval History, "Those account of Mohammad and Islam which were published in Europe before the beginning of 19th century are now to be regarded as literary curiosities." My problem is to write this monograph is easier because we are now generally not fed on this kind of history and much time need be spent on pointing out our misrepresentation of Islam.

The theory of Islam and Sword for instance is not heard now frequently in any quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam that there is no compulsion in religion is well known. Gibbon, a historian of world repute says, "A pernicious tenet has been imputed to Mohammadans, the duty of extirpating all the religions by sword." This charge based on ignorance and bigotry, says the eminent historian, is refuted by Quran, by history of Musalman conquerors and by their public and legal toleration of Christian worship. The great success of Mohammad's life had been effected by sheer moral force, without a stroke of sword.

But in pure self-defense, after repeated efforts of conciliation had utterly failed, circumstances dragged him into the battlefield. But the prophet of Islam changed the whole strategy of the battlefield. The total number of casualties in all the wars that took place during his lifetime when the whole Arabian Peninsula came under his banner, does not exceed a few hundreds in all. But even on the battlefield he taught the Arab barbarians to pray, to pray not individually, but in congregation to God the Almighty. During the dust and storm of warfare whenever the time for prayer came, and it comes five times a every day, the congregation prayer had not to be postponed even on the battlefield. A party had to be engaged in bowing their heads before God while other was engaged with the enemy. After finishing the prayers, the two parties had to exchange their positions. To the Arabs, who would fight for forty years on the slight provocation that a camel belonging to the guest of one tribe had strayed into the grazing land belonging to other tribe and both sides had fought till they lost 70,000 lives in all; threatening the extinction of both the tribes to such furious Arabs, the Prophet of Islam taught self-control and discipline to the extent of praying even on the battlefield. In an aged of barbarism, the Battlefield itself was humanized and strict instructions were issued not to cheat, not to break trust, not to mutilate, not to kill a child or woman or an old man, not to hew down date palm nor burn it, not to cut a fruit tree, not to molest any person engaged in worship. His own treatment with his bitterest enemies is the noblest example for his followers. At the conquest of Mecca, he stood at the zenith of his power. The city which had refused to listen to his mission, which had tortured him and his followers, which had driven him and his people into exile and which had unrelentingly persecuted and boycotted him even when he had taken refuge in a place more than 200 miles away, that city now lay at his feet. By the laws of war he could have justly avenged all the cruelties inflicted on him and his people. But what treatment did he accord to them? Mohammad's heart flowed with affection and he declared, "This day, there is no REPROOF against you and you are all free." "This day" he proclaimed, "I trample under my feet all distinctions between man and man, all hatred between man and man."

This was one of the chief objects why he permitted war in self defense, that is to unite human beings. And when once this object was achieved, even his worst enemies were pardoned. Even those who killed his beloved uncle, Hamazah, mangled his body, ripped it open, even chewed a piece of his liver.

The principles of universal brotherhood and doctrine of the equality of mankind which he proclaimed represents one very great contribution of Mohammad to the social uplift of humanity. All great religions have preached the same doctrine but the prophet of Islam had put this theory into actual practice and its value will be fully recognized, perhaps centuries hence, when international consciousness being awakened, racial prejudices may disappear and greater brotherhood of humanity come into existence.

Miss. Sarojini Naidu speaking about this aspect of Islam says, "It was the first religion that preached and practiced democracy; for in the mosque, when the minaret is sounded and the worshipers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and the king kneel side by side and proclaim, God alone is great." The great poetess of India continues, "I have been struck over and over again by this indivisible unity of Islam that makes a man instinctively a brother. When you meet an Egyptian, an Algerian and Indian and a Turk in London, it matters not that Egypt is the motherland of one and India is the motherland of another."

Mahatma Gandhi, in his inimitable style, says "Some one has said that Europeans in South Africa dread the advent Islam -- Islam that civilized Spain, Islam that took the torch light to Morocco and preached to the world the Gospel of brotherhood. The Europeans of South Africa dread the Advent of Islam. They may claim equality with the white races. They may well dread it, if brotherhood is a sin. If it is equality of colored races then their dread is well founded."

Every year, during the Haj, the world witnesses the wonderful spectacle of this international Exhibition of Islam in leveling all distinctions of race, color and rank. Not only the Europeans, the African, the Arabian, the Persian, the Indians, the Chinese all meet together in Medina as members of one divine family, but they are clad in one dress every person in two simple pieces of white seamless cloth, one piece round the loin the other piece over the shoulders, bare head without pomp or ceremony, repeating "Here am I O God; at thy command; thou art one and alone; Here am I." Thus there remains nothing to differentiate the high from the low and every pilgrim carries home the impression of the international significance of Islam.

In the opinion of Prof. Hurgronje "the league of nations founded by prophet of Islam put the principle of international unity of human brotherhood on such Universal foundations as to show candle to other nations." In the words of same Professor "the fact is that no nation of the world can show a parallel to what Islam has done the realization of the idea of the League of Nations."

The prophet of Islam brought the reign of democracy in its best form. The Caliph Caliph Ali and the son in-law of the prophet, the Caliph Mansur, Abbas, the son of Caliph Mamun and many other caliphs and kings had to appear before the judge as ordinary men in Islamic courts. Even today we all know how the black Negroes were treated by the civilized white races. Consider the state of BILAL, a Negro Slave, in the days of the prophet of Islam nearly 14 centuries ago. The office of calling Muslims to prayer was considered to be of status in the early days of Islam and it was offered to this Negro slave. After the conquest of Mecca, the Prophet ordered him to call for prayer and the Negro slave, with his black color and his thick lips, stood over the roof of the holy mosque at Mecca called the Ka'ba the most historic and the holiest mosque in the Islamic world, when some proud Arabs painfully cried loud, "Oh, this black Negro Slave, woe be to him. He stands on the roof of holy Ka'ba to call for prayer." At that moment, the prophet announced to the world, this verse of the holy QURAN for the first time.


"O mankind, surely we have created you, families and tribes, so you may know one another.
Surely, the most honorable of you with God is MOST RIGHTEOUS AMONG you.
Surely, God is Knowing, Aware."

And these words of the holy Quran created such a mighty transformation that the Caliph of Islam, the purest of Arabs by birth, offered their daughter in marriage to this Negro Slave, and whenever, the second Caliph of Islam, known to history as Umar the great, the commander of faithful, saw this Negro slave, he immediately stood in reverence and welcomed him by "Here come our master; Here come our lord." What a tremendous change was brought by Quran in the Arabs, the proudest people at that time on the earth. This is the reason why Goethe, the greatest of German poets, speaking about the Holy Quran declared that, "This book will go on exercising through all ages a most potent influence." This is also the reason why George Bernard Shaw says, "If any religion has a chance or ruling over England, say, Europe, within the next 100 years, it is Islam".
It is this same democratic spirit of Islam that emancipated women from the bondage of man. Sir Charles Edward Archibald Hamilton says "Islam teaches the inherent sinlessness of man. It teaches that man and woman and woman have come from the same essence, posses the same soul and have been equipped with equal capabilities for intellectual, spiritual and moral attainments."

The Arabs had a very strong tradition that one who can smite with the spear and can wield the sword would inherit. But Islam came as the defender of the weaker sex and entitled women to share the inheritance of their parents. It gave women, centuries ago right of owning property, yet it was only 12 centuries later , in 1881, that England, supposed to be the cradle of democracy adopted this institution of Islam and the act was called "the married woman act", but centuries earlier, the Prophet of Islam had proclaimed that "Woman are twin halves of men. The rights of women are sacred. See that women maintained rights granted to them."

Islam is not directly concerned with political and economic systems, but indirectly and in so far as political and economic affairs influence man's conduct, it does lay down some very important principles to govern economic life. According to Prof. Massignon, it maintains the balance between exaggerated opposites and has always in view the building of character which is the basis of civilization. This is secured by its law of inheritance, by an organized system of charity known as Zakat, and by regarding as illegal all anti-social practices in the economic field like monopoly, usury, securing of predetermined unearned income and increments, cornering markets, creating monopolies, creating an artificial scarcity of any commodity in order to force the prices to rise. Gambling is illegal. Contribution to schools, to places of worship, hospitals, digging of wells, opening of orphanages are highest acts of virtue. Orphanages have sprung for the first time, it is said, under the teaching of the prophet of Islam. The world owes its orphanages to this prophet born an orphan. "Good all this" says Carlyle about Mohammad. "The natural voice of humanity, of pity and equity, dwelling in the heart of this wild son of nature, speaks."

A historian once said a great man should be judged by three tests: Was he found to be of true metel by his contemporaries ? Was he great enough to raise above the standards of his age ? Did he leave anything as permanent legacy to the world at large ? This list may be further extended but all these three tests of greatness are eminently satisfied to the highest degree in case of prophet Mohammad. Some illustrations of the last two have already been mentioned.

The first is: Was the Prophet of Islam found to be of true metel by his contemporaries?

Historical records show that all the contemporaries of Mohammad both friends foes, acknowledged the sterling qualities, the spotless honesty, the noble virtues, the absolute sincerity and every trustworthiness of the apostle of Islam in all walks of life and in every sphere of human activity. Even the Jews and those who did not believe in his message, adopted him as the arbiter in their personal disputes by virtue of his perfect impartiality. Even those who did not believe in his message were forced to say "O Mohammad, we do not call you a liar, but we deny him who has given you a book and inspired you with a message." They thought he was one possessed. They tried violence to cure him. But the best of them saw that a new light had dawned on him and they hastened him to seek the enlightenment. It is a notable feature in the history of prophet of Islam that his nearest relation, his beloved cousin and his bosom friends, who know him most intimately, were not thoroughly imbued with the truth of his mission and were convinced of the genuineness of his divine inspiration. If these men and women, noble, intelligent, educated and intimately acquainted with his private life had perceived the slightest signs of deception, fraud, earthliness, or lack of faith in him, Mohammad's moral hope of regeneration, spiritual awakening, and social reform would all have been foredoomed to a failure and whole edifice would have crumbled to pieces in a moment. On the contrary, we find that devotion of his followers was such that he was voluntarily acknowledged as dictator of their lives. They braved for him persecutions and danger; they trusted, obeyed and honored him even in the most excruciating torture and severest mental agony caused by excommunication even unto death. Would this have been so, had they noticed the slightest backsliding in their master?

Read the history of the early converts to Islam, and every heart would melt at the sight of the brutal treatment of innocent Muslim men and women.

Sumayya, an innocent women, is cruelly torn into pieces with spears. An example is made of "Yassir whose legs are tied to two camels and the beast were are driven in opposite directions", Khabbab bin Arth is made lie down on the bed of burning coal with the brutal legs of their merciless tyrant on his breast so that he may not move and this makes even the fat beneath his skin melt. "Khabban bin Adi is put to death in a cruel manner by mutilation and cutting off his flesh piece-meal." In the midst of his tortures, being asked weather he did not wish Mohammad in his place while he was in his house with his family, the sufferer cried out that he was gladly prepared to sacrifice himself his family and children and why was it that these sons and daughters of Islam not only surrendered to their prophet their allegiance but also made a gift of their hearts and souls to their master? Is not the intense faith and conviction on part of immediate followers of Mohammad, the noblest testimony to his sincerity and to his utter self-absorption in his appointed task?

And these men were not of low station or inferior mental caliber. Around him in quite early days, gathered what was best and noblest in Mecca, its flower and cream, men of position, rank, wealth and culture, and from his own kith and kin, those who knew all about his life. All the first four Caliphs, with their towering personalities, were converts of this period.

The Encyclopedia Brittanica says that "Mohammad is the most successful of all Prophets and religious personalities".

But the success was not the result of mere accident. It was not a hit of fortune. It was a recognition of fact that he was found to be true metal by his contemporaries. It was the result of his admirable and all compelling personality.

The personality of Mohammad! It is most difficult to get into the truth of it. Only a glimpse of it I can catch. What a dramatic succession of picturesque scenes. There is Mohammad the Prophet, there is Mohammad the General; Mohammad the King; Mohammad the Warrior; Mohammad the Businessman; Mohammad the Preacher; Mohammad the Philosopher; Mohammad the Statesman; Mohammad the Orator; Mohammad the reformer; Mohammad the Refuge of orphans; Mohammad the Protector of slaves; Mohammad the Emancipator of women; Mohammad the Law-giver; Mohammad the Judge; Mohammad the Saint.

And in all these magnificent roles, in all these departments of human activities, he is like, a hero..

Orphanhood is extreme of helplessness and his life upon this earth began with it; Kingship is the height of the material power and it ended with it. From an orphan boy to a persecuted refugee and then to an overlord, spiritual as well as temporal, of a whole nation and Arbiter of its destinies, with all its trials and temptations, with all its vicissitudes and changes, its lights and shades, its up and downs, its terror and splendor, he has stood the fire of the world and came out unscathed to serve as a model in every face of life. His achievements are not limited to one aspect of life, but cover the whole field of human conditions.

If for instance, greatness consist in the purification of a nation, steeped in barbarism and immersed in absolute moral darkness, that dynamic personality who has transformed, refined and uplifted an entire nation, sunk low as the Arabs were, and made them the torch-bearer of civilization and learning, has every claim to greatness. If greatness lies in unifying the discordant elements of society by ties of brotherhood and charity, the prophet of the desert has got every title to this distinction. If greatness consists in reforming those warped in degrading and blind superstition and pernicious practices of every kind, the prophet of Islam has wiped out superstitions and irrational fear from the hearts of millions. If it lies in displaying high morals, Mohammad has been admitted by friend and foe as Al Amin, or the faithful. If a conqueror is a great man, here is a person who rose from helpless orphan and an humble creature to be the ruler of Arabia, the equal to Chosroes and Caesars, one who founded great empire that has survived all these 14 centuries. If the devotion that a leader commands is the criterion of greatness, the prophet's name even today exerts a magic charm over millions of souls, spread all over the world.

He had not studied philosophy in the school of Athens of Rome, Persia, India, or China. Yet, He could proclaim the highest truths of eternal value to mankind. Illiterate himself, he could yet speak with an eloquence and fervor which moved men to tears, to tears of ecstasy. Born an orphan blessed with no worldly goods, he was loved by all. He had studied at no military academy; yet he could organize his forces against tremendous odds and gained victories through the moral forces which he marshaled. Gifted men with genius for preaching are rare. Descartes included the perfect preacher among the rarest kind in the world. Hitler in his Mein Kamp has expressed a similar view. He says "A great theorist is seldom a great leader. An Agitator is more likely to posses these qualities. He will always be a great leader. For leadership means ability to move masses of men. The talents to produce ideas has nothing in common with capacity for leadership." "But", he says, "The Union of theorists, organizer and leader in one man, is the rarest phenomenon on this earth; Therein consists greatness."

In the person of the Prophet of Islam the world has seen this rarest phenomenon walking on the earth, walking in flesh and blood.

And more wonderful still is what the reverend Bosworth Smith remarks, "Head of the state as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but, he was pope without the pope's claims, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without an standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue. If ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by a right divine It was Mohammad, for he had all the power without instruments and without its support. He cared not for dressing of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life."

After the fall of Mecca, more than one million square miles of land lay at his feet, Lord of Arabia, he mended his own shoes and coarse woolen garments, milked the goats, swept the hearth, kindled the fire and attended the other menial offices of the family. The entire town of Medina where he lived grew wealthy in the later days of his life. Everywhere there was gold and silver in plenty and yet in those days of prosperity many weeks would elapse without a fire being kindled in the hearth of the king of Arabia, His food being dates and water. His family would go hungry many nights successively because they could not get anything to eat in the evening. He slept on no soften bed but on a palm mat, after a long busy day to spend most of his night in prayer, often bursting with tears before his creator to grant him strength to discharge his duties. As the reports go, his voice would get choked with weeping and it would appear as if a cooking pot was on fire and boiling had commenced. On the very day of his death his only assets were few coins a part of which went to satisfy a debt and rest was given to a needy person who came to his house for charity. The clothes in which he breathed his last had many patches. The house from where light had spread to the world was in darkness because there was no oil in the lamp.

Circumstances changed, but the prophet of God did not. In victory or in defeat, in power or in adversity, in affluence or in indigence, he is the same man, disclosed the same character. Like all the ways and laws of God, Prophets of God are unchangeable.

An honest man, as the saying goes, is the noblest work of God, Mohammad was more than honest. He was human to the marrow of his bones. Human sympathy, human love was the music of his soul. To serve man, to elevate man, to purify man, to educate man, in a word to humanize man-this was the object of his mission, the be-all and end all of his life. In thought, in word, in action he had the good of humanity as his sole inspiration, his sole guiding principle.

He was most unostentatious and selfless to the core. What were the titles he assumed? Only true servant of God and His Messenger. Servant first, and then a messenger. A Messenger and prophet like many other prophets in every part of the world, some known to you, many not known you. If one does not believe in any of these truths one ceases to be a Muslim. It is an article of faith.

"Looking at the circumstances of the time and unbounded reverence of his followers" says a western writer "the most miraculous thing about Mohammad is, that he never claimed the power of working miracles." Miracles were performed but not to propagate his faith and were attributed entirely to God and his inscrutable ways. He would plainly say that he was a man like others. He had no treasures of earth or heaven. Nor did he claim to know the secrets of that lie in womb of future. All this was in an age when miracles were supposed to be ordinary occurrences, at the back and call of the commonest saint, when the whole atmosphere was surcharged with supernaturalism in Arabia and outside Arabia.

He turned the attention of his followers towards the study of nature and its laws, to understand them and appreciate the Glory of God. The Quran says,

"God did not create the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in play. He did not create them all but with the truth. But most men do not know."
The world is not illusion, nor without purpose. It has been created with the truth. The number of verses inviting close observation of nature are several times more than those that relate to prayer, fasting, pilgrimage etc. all put together. The Muslim under its influence began to observe nature closely and this give birth to the scientific spirit of the observation and experiment which was unknown to the Greeks. While the Muslim Botanist Ibn Baitar wrote on Botany after collecting plants from all parts of the world, described by Myer in his Gesch. der Botanikaa-s, a monument of industry, while Al Byruni traveled for forty years to collect mineralogical specimens, and Muslim Astronomers made some observations extending even over twelve years. Aristotle wrote on Physics without performing a single experiment, wrote on natural history, carelessly stating without taking the trouble to ascertain the most verifiable fact that men have more teeth than animal. Galen, the greatest authority on classical anatomy informed that the lower jaw consists of two bones, a statement which is accepted unchallenged for centuries till Abdul Lateef takes the trouble to examine a human skeleton. After enumerating several such instances, Robert Priffault concludes in his well known book The making of humanity, "The debt of our science to the Arabs does not consist in starting discovers or revolutionary theories. Science owes a great more to Arabs culture; it owes is existence." The same writer says "The Greeks systematized, generalized and theorized but patient ways of investigation, the accumulation of positive knowledge, the minute methods of science, detailed and prolonged observation, experimental inquiry, were altogether alien to Greek temperament. What we call science arose in Europe as result of new methods of investigation, of the method of experiment, observation, measurement, of the development of Mathematics in form unknown to the Greeks. That spirit and these methods, concludes the same author, were introduced into the European world by Arabs."
It is the same practical character of the teaching of Prophet Mohammad that gave birth to the scientific spirit, that has also sanctified the daily labors and the so called mundane affairs. The Quran says that God has created man to worship him but the word worship has a connotation of its own. Gods worship is not confined to prayer alone, but every act that is done with the purpose of winning approval of God and is for the benefit of the humanity comes under its purview. Islam sanctifies life and all its pursuits provided they are performed with honesty, justice and pure intents. It obliterates the age-long distinction between the sacred and profane. The Quran says if you eat clean things and thank God for it, it is an act of worship. It is saying of the prophet of Islam that Morsel of food that one places in the mouth of his wife is an act of virtue to be rewarded by God. Another tradition of the Prophet says "He who is satisfying the desire of his heart will be rewarded by God provided the methods adopted are permissible." A person was listening to him exclaimed 'O Prophet of God, he is answering the calls of passions, is only satisfying the craving of his heart. Forthwith came the reply, "Had he adopted an awful method for the satisfaction of his urge, he would have been punished; then why should he not be rewarded for following the right course."

This new conception of religion that it should also devote itself to the betterment of this life rather than concern itself exclusively with super mundane affairs, has led to a new orientation of moral values. Its abiding influence on the common relations of mankind in the affairs of every day life, its deep power over the masses, its regulation of their conception of rights and duty, its suitability and adaptability to the ignorant savage and the wise philosopher are characteristic features of the teaching of the Prophet of Islam.

But it should be most carefully born in mind this stress on good actions is not the sacrifice correctness of faith. While there are various school of thought, one praising faith at the expense of deeds, another exhausting various acts to the detriment of correct belief, Islam is based on correct faith and righteous actions. Means are important as the end and ends are as important as the means. It is an organic Unity. Together they live and thrive. Separate them and both decay and die. In Islam faith can not be divorced from the action. Right knowledge should be transferred into right action to produce the right results. How often the words came in Quran -- Those who believe and do good thing, they alone shall enter paradise. Again and again, not less than fifty times these words are repeated as if too much stress can not be laid on them. Contemplation is encouraged but mere contemplation is not the goal. Those who believe and do nothing can not exist in Islam. These who believe and do wrong are inconceivable. Divine law is the law of effort and not of ideals. It chalks out for the men the path of eternal progress from knowledge to action and from action to satisfaction.

But what is the correct faith from which right action spontaneously proceeds resulting in complete satisfaction. Here the central doctrine of Islam is the Unity of God. There is no God but God is the pivot from which hangs the whole teaching and practice of Islam. He is unique not only as regards his divine being but also as regards his divine attributes.

As regards the attributes of God, Islam adopts here as in other things too, the law of golden mean. It avoids on the one hand, the view of God which divests the divine being of every attribute and rejects, on the other, the view which likens him to things material. The Quran says, On the one hand, there is nothing which is like him, on the other , it affirms that he is Seeing, Hearing, Knowing. He is the King who is without a stain of fault or deficiency, the mighty ship of His power floats upon the ocean of justice and equity. He is the Beneficent, the Merciful. He is the Guardian over all. Islam does not stop with this positive statement. It adds further which is its most special characteristic, the negative aspects of problem. There is also no one else who is guardian over everything. He is the meander of every breakage, and no one else is the meander of any breakage. He is the restorer of every loss and no one else is the restorer of any loss what-so-over. There is no God but one God, above any need, the maker of bodies, creator of souls, the Lord of the day of judgment, and in short, in the words of Quran, to him belong all excellent qualities.

Regarding the position of man in relation to the Universe, the Quran says:

"God has made subservient to you whatever is on the earth or in universe. You are destined to rule over the Universe."

But in relation to God, the Quran says:
"O man God has bestowed on you excellent faculties and has created life and death to put you to test in order to see whose actions are good and who has deviated from the right path."
In spite of free will which he enjoys, to some extent, every man is born under certain circumstances and continues to live under certain circumstances beyond his control. With regard to this God says, according to Islam, it is my will to create any man under condition that seem best to me. cosmic plans finite mortals can not fully comprehend. But I will certainly test you in prosperity as well in adversity, in health as well as in sickness, in heights as well as in depths. My ways of testing differ from man to man, from hour to hour. In adversity do not despair and do resort to unlawful means. It is but a passing phase. In prosperity do not forget God. God-gifts are given only as trusts. You are always on trial, every moment on test. In this sphere of life there is not to reason why, there is but to do and die. If you live in accordance with God; and if you die, die in the path of God. You may call it fatalism. but this type of fatalism is a condition of vigorous increasing effort, keeping you ever on the alert. Do not consider this temporal life on earth as the end of human existence. There is a life after death and it is eternal. Life after death is only a connection link, a door that opens up hidden reality of life. Every action in life however insignificant, produces a lasting effect. It is correctly recorded somehow. Some of the ways of God are known to you, but many of his ways are hidden from you. What is hidden in you and from you in this world will be unrolled and laid open before you in the next. the virtuous will enjoy the blessing of God which the eye has not seen, nor has the ear heard, nor has it entered into the hearts of men to conceive of they will march onward reaching higher and higher stages of evolution. Those who have wasted opportunity in this life shall under the inevitable law, which makes every man taste of what he has done, be subjugated to a course of treatment of the spiritual diseases which they have brought about with their own hands. Beware, it is terrible ordeal. Bodily pain is torture, you can bear somehow. Spiritual pain is hell, you will find it almost unbearable. Fight in this life itself the tendencies of the spirit prone to evil, tempting to lead you into iniquities ways. Reach the next stage when the self-accusing sprit in your conscience is awakened and the soul is anxious to attain moral excellence and revolt against disobedience. This will lead you to the final stage of the soul at rest, contented with God, finding its happiness and delight in him alone. The soul no more stumbles. The stage of struggle passes away. Truth is victorious and falsehood lays down its arms. All complexes will then be resolved. Your house will not be divided against itself. Your personality will get integrated round the central core of submission to the will of God and complete surrender to his divine purpose. All hidden energies will then be released. The soul then will have peace. God will then address you:

"O thou soul that art at rest, and restest fully contented with thy Lord return to thy Lord. He pleased with thee and thou pleased with him; So enter among my servants and enter into my paradise."

This is the final goal for man; to become, on the, one hand, the master of the universe and on the other, to see that his soul finds rest in his Lord, that not only his Lord will be pleased with him but that he is also pleased with his Lord. Contentment, complete contentment, satisfaction, complete satisfaction, peace, complete peace. The love of God is his food at this stage and he drinks deep at the fountain of life. Sorrow and defeat do not overwhelm him and success does not find him in vain and exulting.
The western nations are only trying to become the master of the Universe. But their souls have not found peace and rest.

Thomas Carlyle, struck by this philosophy of life writes "and then also Islam-that we must submit to God; that our whole strength lies in resigned submission to Him, whatsoever he does to us, the thing he sends to us, even if death and worse than death, shall be good, shall be best; we resign ourselves to God." The same author continues "If this be Islam, says Goethe, do we not all live in Islam?" Carlyle himself answers this question of Goethe and says "Yes, all of us that have any moral life, we all live so. This is yet the highest wisdom that heaven has revealed to our earth."


USC.EDU
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

and another account from a Jew
Uri Avnery's Column

Muhammad's Sword

23/09/06



Since the days when Roman Emperors threw Christians to the lions, the relations between the emperors and the heads of the church have undergone many changes.
Constantine the Great, who became Emperor in the year 306 - exactly 1700 years ago - encouraged the practice of Christianity in the empire, which included Palestine. Centuries later, the church split into an Eastern (Orthodox) and a Western (Catholic) part. In the West, the Bishop of Rome, who acquired the title of Pope, demanded that the Emperor accept his superiority.


The struggle between the Emperors and the Popes played a central role in European history and divided the peoples. It knew ups and downs. Some Emperors dismissed or expelled a Pope, some Popes dismissed or excommunicated an Emperor. One of the Emperors, Henry IV, "walked to Canossa", standing for three days barefoot in the snow in front of the Pope's castle, until the Pope deigned to annul his excommunication.

But there were times when Emperors and Popes lived in peace with each other. We are witnessing such a period today. Between the present Pope, Benedict XVI, and the present Emperor, George Bush II, there exists a wonderful harmony. Last week's speech by the Pope, which aroused a world-wide storm, went well with Bush's crusade against "Islamofascism", in the context of the "Clash of Civilizations".

IN HIS lecture at a German university, the 265th Pope described what he sees as a huge difference between Christianity and Islam: while Christianity is based on reason, Islam denies it. While Christians see the logic of God's actions, Muslims deny that there is any such logic in the actions of Allah.

As a Jewish atheist, I do not intend to enter the fray of this debate. It is much beyond my humble abilities to understand the logic of the Pope. But I cannot overlook one passage, which concerns me too, as an Israeli living near the fault-line of this "war of civilizations".

In order to prove the lack of reason in Islam, the Pope asserts that the prophet Muhammad ordered his followers to spread their religion by the sword. According to the Pope, that is unreasonable, because faith is born of the soul, not of the body. How can the sword influence the soul?

To support his case, the Pope quoted - of all people - a Byzantine Emperor, who belonged, of course, to the competing Eastern Church. At the end of the 14th century, the Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus told of a debate he had - or so he said (its occurrence is in doubt) - with an unnamed Persian Muslim scholar. In the heat of the argument, the Emperor (according to himself) flung the following words at his adversary:

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".

These words give rise to three questions: (a) Why did the Emperor say them? (b) Are they true? (c) Why did the present Pope quote them?

WHEN MANUEL II wrote his treatise, he was the head of a dying empire. He assumed power in 1391, when only a few provinces of the once illustrious empire remained. These, too, were already under Turkish threat.

At that point in time, the Ottoman Turks had reached the banks of the Danube. They had conquered Bulgaria and the north of Greece, and had twice defeated relieving armies sent by Europe to save the Eastern Empire. On May 29, 1453, only a few years after Manuel's death, his capital, Constantinople (the present Istanbul) fell to the Turks, putting an end to the Empire that had lasted for more than a thousand years.

During his reign, Manuel made the rounds of the capitals of Europe in an attempt to drum up support. He promised to reunite the church. There is no doubt that he wrote his religious treatise in order to incite the Christian countries against the Turks and convince them to start a new crusade. The aim was practical, theology was serving politics.

In this sense, the quote serves exactly the requirements of the present Emperor, George Bush II. He, too, wants to unite the Christian world against the mainly Muslim "Axis of Evil". Moreover, the Turks are again knocking on the doors of Europe, this time peacefully. It is well known that the Pope supports the forces that object to the entry of Turkey into the European Union.

IS THERE any truth in Manuel's argument?

The pope himself threw in a word of caution. As a serious and renowned theologian, he could not afford to falsify written texts. Therefore, he admitted that the Qur'an specifically forbade the spreading of the faith by force. He quoted the second Sura, verse 256 (strangely fallible, for a pope, he meant verse 257) which says: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith".

How can one ignore such an unequivocal statement? The Pope simply argues that this commandment was laid down by the prophet when he was at the beginning of his career, still weak and powerless, but that later on he ordered the use of the sword in the service of the faith. Such an order does not exist in the Qur'an. True, Muhammad called for the use of the sword in his war against opposing tribes - Christian, Jewish and others - in Arabia, when he was building his state. But that was a political act, not a religious one; basically a fight for territory, not for the spreading of the faith.

Jesus said: "You will recognize them by their fruits." The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: How did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years, when they had the power to "spread the faith by the sword"?

Well, they just did not.

For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration. The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.

True, the Albanians did convert to Islam, and so did the Bosniaks. But nobody argues that they did this under duress. They adopted Islam in order to become favorites of the government and enjoy the fruits.

In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith - and they were the forefathers of most of today's Palestinians.

THERE IS no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time. Poets like Yehuda Halevy wrote in Arabic, as did the great Maimonides. In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, scientists. In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. How would this have been possible, had the Prophet decreed the "spreading of the faith by the sword"?

What happened afterwards is even more telling. When the Catholics re-conquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi ("Spanish") Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust.

WHY? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book". In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll-tax, but were exempted from military service - a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion - because it entailed the loss of taxes.

Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith.

THE STORY about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims - the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions.

Why did he utter these words in public? And why now?

There is no escape from viewing them against the background of the new Crusade of Bush and his evangelist supporters, with his slogans of "Islamofascism" and the "Global War on Terrorism" - when "terrorism" has become a synonym for Muslims. For Bush's handlers, this is a cynical attempt to justify the domination of the world's oil resources. Not for the first time in history, a religious robe is spread to cover the nakedness of economic interests; not for the first time, a robbers' expedition becomes a Crusade.

The speech of the Pope blends into this effort. Who can foretell the dire consequences?

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1159094813
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

you know alpiana you give me an impression of someone, who has just learnt a new thing about computers, and he thinks now that he discovered the world, and he learned such an important thing and now all day he will talk about his, as nobody has ever talked before.
you know u have a guierilla posting type, cuz it seems you go and read from some non-islamic sources, and then come here for 10 mins, and just shoot shoot shoot, at least if you would have done that by brining proof, but you don't even do that but anywas, you just come and shoot, and then go back. I think your intention is not to learn about Islam, and try to understand the truth, but it's about pleasing yourself by trying to prove Qur'an is corrupted, and Muhammed had doubts on his reveleation etc... . so you feel secure with your bible.

Yeah ,definitely, I think that is what pleases you, to see those things, but keep in mind, that you will never be able to please youself with such things, bc Qur'an has remained unchanged and it will, and there is no contradiciton on it, or anything that u mentioned before.
so try to start have the intention of learning, and not the intention of refusing it :) get knowledge from proper sources.
I don't go to take knowledge about engineering from proffesors who study medicine. It's totally stupid.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

you know alpiana you give me an impression of someone, who has just learnt a new thing about computers, and he thinks now that he discovered the world, and he learned such an important thing and now all day he will talk about his, as nobody has ever talked before.
you know u have a guierilla posting type, cuz it seems you go and read from some non-islamic sources, and then come here for 10 mins, and just shoot shoot shoot, at least if you would have done that by brining proof, but you don't even do that but anywas, you just come and shoot, and then go back. I think your intention is not to learn about Islam, and try to understand the truth, but it's about pleasing yourself by trying to prove Qur'an is corrupted, and Muhammed had doubts on his reveleation etc... . so you feel secure with your bible.
This person has admitted that he is an avowed enemy of Islam that he is here only to do "spiritual battle" with Muslims in order to mislead them towards Christianity. He would rather believe the anti-Islam websites than the Truth that you, Sr. PurestAmbrosia, Br. Talha777, Br. Woodrow, and others post. One can clearly tell that he does not write as someone who understands what he is talking about, rather he is cutting and posting without referencing his sources.

We Muslims have a duty to counter falsehood and lies such as this with the Truth of Islam.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

This person has admitted that he is an avowed enemy of Islam that he is here only to do "spiritual battle" with Muslims in order to mislead them towards Christianity. He would rather believe the anti-Islam websites than the Truth that you, Sr. PurestAmbrosia, Br. Talha777, Br. Woodrow, and others post. One can clearly tell that he does not write as someone who understands what he is talking about, rather he is cutting and posting without referencing his sources.

We Muslims have a duty to counter falsehood and lies such as this with the Truth of Islam.

Allah(swt) works in strange ways. I feel that it is good for us to hear and read the misbeliefs others have of us. Our joint responces do help remind us of the Truth of Islam and detractors can become part of the glue that helps solidify our Iman and make it stronger.

I do agree with you that the poster is an enemy of Islam, because he does not see the light. But, I see him as a friend of Muslims, because he serves as a reminder as to why Reverts have left Christianity. It is hard to remember that at one time we also believed those same falicies and now to see them in the light, their misguidance becomes clear. May, the Truth guide them from their ignorance.

It is a reminder of what it was like while we were lost in the darkness and now it is so clear as to see the shadows disappear, once we allow the light to shine brightly and show the path to truth.

We Muslims have a duty to counter falsehood and lies such as this with the Truth of Islam.

That is true, but we must keep in mind that the falsehoods come from blindness and ignorance. The Truth is the light that will allow the misguided to take away the shadows that are keeping the misguided from seeing the Message Allah(swt) has sent us.

May we keep our light shinning bright and do our best to increase the brightness when we see our lost friends stumbling in the dark and unable to find the path.
 
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Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

alapiana said:
for instance, since Muhammad couldn't read or write, Scribes wrote for him. They wrote on anything that was available leaves, stones, leather and bones and many committed to memory his words that were killed and scattered.

Multitudes of the Holy Prophet's (sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) Companions memorized the entire Holy Quran by heart. Hazrat Usman (radhi Allahu anhu), whom you wrongly accuse of inventing a new Quran, memorized the Holy Quran by heart, and used to recite the entire Holy Quran, all 114 surahs, in one rakaat (unit of prayer). He used to stand all night reciting the entire Holy Quran in earnest worship so much so his feet would swell up.

Qoraishi dialect was supposed to be the standard Arabic, but there is confusion between that and modern Arabic. Moreover, copies of Zaid’s collection some twenty-four were burned. The final choice for a canon seems to have had little to do with authenticity. During the time of Uthman, “No two Qur’ans were alike, yet in one edit they were all destroyed - except one” There are also contradictions in the Qur’an.

The Holy Quran was revealed in the Quraishi dialect. The Holy Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) was from the Quraish people, so he himself recited the Holy Quran in that dialect. But as Islam was spreading, the new Muslims began to read the Quran in other dialects, and this was a danger to the integrity of the Holy Quran. So the third khalifa, Hazrat Usman, ordered the authentic manuscripts which were in the possession of the wife of the Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wa salaam), whose name was Hafsa, were delivered to four Companions and professional scribes, who made standard manuscripts which could be disseminated to every province. To be safe, all the other manuscripts, whether they were authentic or not, were ordered to be burned in order to preserve the Holy Quran and rule out any possibility or doubt that it has been corrupted:

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)


Nowhere in the Bible is Mary considered part of a trinity.

And nowhere in the Holy Quran, not a single ayat, does it say Mary is part of the trinity. And the trinity is mentioned in the Holy Quran: They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. (Al-Maidah 5:73). However, the Holy Quran does say that Christians have taken Jesus (alaihi salaam) and his mother as gods beside Alalh (5:116), and to this day the majority of Christians (Roman Catholics), as well as Eastern Orthodox, pray to Mary ("Hail Mary") and commit what is known as "Mariolotry".

Sometimes he would change what Allah said by saying that Satan deceived him into thinking it was Allah.

An utter and complete lie. The Holy Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) never claimed even once that he miscontrued Satan for Allah.

Yes, he would cancel some lines of what Allah said, because it was condoning or allowing the worship of idols.

If you are going to invent this kind of falsehood against the Prophet of Allah, than I must seriously warn you that you should fear the blazing furnace of hell.

And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah or rejects the Truth when it reaches him? Is there not a home in Hell for those who reject Faith? (Al-Ankabut 29:68)
 
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Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

you know alpiana you give me an impression of someone, who has just learnt a new thing about computers, and he thinks now that he discovered the world, and he learned such an important thing and now all day he will talk about his, as nobody has ever talked before.
you know u have a guierilla posting type, cuz it seems you go and read from some non-islamic sources, and then come here for 10 mins, and just shoot shoot shoot, at least if you would have done that by brining proof, but you don't even do that but anywas, you just come and shoot, and then go back. I think your intention is not to learn about Islam, and try to understand the truth, but it's about pleasing yourself by trying to prove Qur'an is corrupted, and Muhammed had doubts on his reveleation etc... . so you feel secure with your bible.

Yeah ,definitely, I think that is what pleases you, to see those things, but keep in mind, that you will never be able to please youself with such things, bc Qur'an has remained unchanged and it will, and there is no contradiciton on it, or anything that u mentioned before.
so try to start have the intention of learning, and not the intention of refusing it :) get knowledge from proper sources.
I don't go to take knowledge about engineering from proffesors who study medicine. It's totally stupid.

Ironic...that is exactly how I see many of the posts from Muslims on this thread.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Yes Tahla 777, I am a Christian. If you have something to say to me, do it in a thread, not a little private message. Don't be a coward, post your true thoughts so all can see.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Are you sure you want to get me started on this? You could start reading what i wrote above.


If you do, please do it on another thread. To debate the Trinity and the Qur'an in one single thread would be way too much.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

It was and is the trinity concept that has led to much bood shed.

I agree with that.


Islam is a religion of peace, but they believe in bringing it with the edge of the sword. For the first thousand years they were unchallenged.

Muhammad(PBUH) faced many challanges almost from day one. Historically I can find no conflict with Christians until after the arrival of the Crusaders as they began their search for the Holy Grail. Perhaps you have read another source, however the myth about Islam having been "Spread by the Sword" has been debunked many times even by Christian scholars. Just one example written by a Christian scholar.

"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths
that historians have ever repeated." De Lacy O'Leary, ISLAM AT THE CROSSROADS, London, 1923, p. 8.



They would cut down Christians and anyone that stood in the way of Islam. That spirit is still there. It is dormant. It was the Christians that learned about Jihad from the Muslims. That was when the Catholics started to turn the tide.

Interesting info. The problem is there is no historical verification for any of it.

"It should also be known that Muslims ruled Spain for roughly 800 years. During this time, and up to when they were finally forced out, the non-Muslims there were alive and flourishing. Additionally, Christian and Jewish minorities have survived in the Muslim lands of the Middle East for centuries. Countries such as Egypt, Morocco, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan all have Christian and/or Jewish populations. If Islaam taught that all people are supposed to be killed or forced to become Muslims, how did all of these non-Muslims survive for so long in the middle of the Islaamic Empire?"

"Additionally, if one considers the small number of Muslims who initially spread Islaam from Spain and Morocco in the West to India and China in the East, one would realise that they were far too few to force people to become converts of a religion against their will. Additionally, the great empire and civilisation established by the Muslims had great staying power, its citizens were proud to be part of it."

Source: http://www.islaam.ca/faqs/faqs-on-islam-muslims/was-islam-spread-by-the-sword.html
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

"It should also be known that Muslims ruled Spain for roughly 800 years. During this time, and up to when they were finally forced out, the non-Muslims there were alive and flourishing. Additionally, Christian and Jewish minorities have survived in the Muslim lands of the Middle East for centuries. Countries such as Egypt, Morocco, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan all have Christian and/or Jewish populations. If Islaam taught that all people are supposed to be killed or forced to become Muslims, how did all of these non-Muslims survive for so long in the middle of the Islaamic Empire?"

"Additionally, if one considers the small number of Muslims who initially spread Islaam from Spain and Morocco in the West to India and China in the East, one would realise that they were far too few to force people to become converts of a religion against their will. Additionally, the great empire and civilisation established by the Muslims had great staying power, its citizens were proud to be part of it."

Source: http://www.islaam.ca/faqs/faqs-on-islam-muslims/was-islam-spread-by-the-sword.html


Over a week ago I posted a thread in world affairs that would have been a good place to continue this discussion, but I guess it is still waiting for approval.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Ironic...that is exactly how I see many of the posts from Muslims on this thread.
what? what's ironic about my post, do u want to say that it's not true what I said?

Yes Tahla 777, I am a Christian. If you have something to say to me, do it in a thread, not a little private message. Don't be a coward, post your true thoughts so all can see.
He sent u a private message, and now you want to make him "coward" and show to everyone that he sent you a private message?? is that how you try to put people down? is that what makes u think that he is a coward??
that's very bad thing what you did, some body trusted u by sending u a private message and u tell everyone?? :( very bad of you. and as for a muslim being a coward, :) a muslim fears Allah, that's when we become coward, and we are completely coward in front of Allah swt, but no everyone else.

Prophet saws said that a person is not considered brave if he can wrestle someone, but he is brave if he can controll yourself.

and you just made public that he sent u a private message :( very bad.
it's not a big thing, but it's just showing your character and morals. would Jesus a.s behave like how u did?
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

...Qur'an has remained unchanged and it will, and there is no contradiciton on it, or anything that u mentioned before.
so try to start have the intention of learning, and not the intention of refusing it :) get knowledge from proper sources.
I don't go to take knowledge about engineering from proffesors who study medicine. It's totally stupid.

I have a question. What would be the proper source for the Qur'an in English? I have read several that say basically the same thing but use different words. Is there a particular translator that any of you especially prefer?

Peace
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

what? what's ironic about my post, do u want to say that it's not true what I said?

He sent u a private message, and now you want to make him "coward" and show to everyone that he sent you a private message?? is that how you try to put people down? is that what makes u think that he is a coward??
that's very bad thing what you did, some body trusted u by sending u a private message and u tell everyone?? :( very bad of you. and as for a muslim being a coward, :) a muslim fears Allah, that's when we become coward, and we are completely coward in front of Allah swt, but no everyone else.

Prophet saws said that a person is not considered brave if he can wrestle someone, but he is brave if he can controll yourself.

and you just made public that he sent u a private message :( very bad.
it's not a big thing, but it's just showing your character and morals. would Jesus a.s behave like how u did?

You have no idea what the message was do you? My post was directed at the person in question. They know what message they sent. Trust had nothing to do with it. As for calling them a coward, I think it is quite cowardly to send insults via a private message...if you have something to say on the topic do it on the thread.
 
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