Darwins theory of Evolution?

[Abz2000]

They don't get destroyed in a discussion with intelligent people when they say a 47 storey concrete and steel building doesn't collapse in 6.5 seconds due to fire - no matter how many government shills with banana leaf degrees say it,

In the story of the emperor's new clothes - it took just one little boy to point out that he was naked,
Despite the "educated" people trying to pretend they were wise

Basically it's become a religion with priests at the head who tell people they have to come to them for interpretations and can't think for themselves, and they use all sorts of colourful theology to explain something that doesn't add up, then say: have faith.
In my book it's called blind faith.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc;

One of the basic tools of ToE is genetic mutation and other heritable alterations that confer selective advantage.

Thanks for sharing, and I guess we look to evolutionists for their explanation of how it all works. I am not a scientist, but I guess my perception of a tool is different to the evolutionists idea of a tool, I would call genetic mutation the end result of other tools.

Nature just seems to have very basic tools to work with, the movement of chemicals, tempreture, and sun light. These tools would have to make the first single cell, and these same tools would have to cause genetic mutation.
As I understand chemicals always work in the same way, so once you have the first replicating cell, tools would be needed to cause mutaion.

In the spirit of needing to be convinced

Eric

 

[MustafaMc]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc;

And to you as well, EricH

I am not a scientist, but I guess my perception of a tool is different to the evolutionists idea of a tool, I would call genetic mutation the end result of other tools.

Nature just seems to have very basic tools to work with, the movement of chemicals, tempreture, and sun light. These tools would have to make the first single cell, and these same tools would have to cause genetic mutation.

I think I see what you are saying now, that there should be elements in the environment to cause mutations to confer a selective advantage.

Wikipedia - "In geneticshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics, a mutagen is a physical or chemical agent that changes the genetic material, usually DNAhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA, of an organismhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organism and thus increases the frequency of mutationshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation above the natural background level. As many mutations cause cancerhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancer, mutagens are typically also carcinogenshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcinogen. Not all mutations are caused by mutagens: so-called "spontaneous mutations" occur due to errorshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_error in DNA replicationhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_replication, repair and recombinationhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_recombination." Notice how mutagens are also carcinogens that lead to cancer and presumed early death and lack of fitness.

My opinion is that evolutionists presume that natural processes such as this and others are capable of creating new, more complex organisms from simpler ones without the need for an external, intelligent being directing and controlling the process. I also see that creationists mostly believe that an external, intelligent Being created the various species as they exist today with only relatively minor changes over time. I am a creationists, but I don't get particularly hung-up on the means by which or how long it took for God to create the various existent and extinct species of life. I just know from my intellectual perspective that humans could not have ever evolved from a single-cellular, common ancestor without a supreme, all-powerful, Creator directing the process.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc;

I am a creationists, but I don't get particularly hung-up on the means by which or how long it took for God to create the various existent and extinct species of life. I just know from my intellectual perspective that humans could not have ever evolved from a single-cellular, common ancestor without a supreme, all-powerful, Creator directing the process.

Likewise, and there is probably not much more I can add to this thread.

Blessings

Eric

 

[MustafaMc]

Likewise, and there is probably not much more I can add to this thread.

You are probably right, but I would still like to write on a philosophical level.

The central, critical issue in the debate between evolutionists and creationists is the existence of God and His involvement in the origin of the various species of life. There are certain things that are outside of the realm of science such as God, Satan, angels, demons, the human soul, life after death, Heaven, and Hell. Since these things can't be observed, sensed, perceived, or measured then naturally they can't be used in scientific arguments. In this sense, I don't believe that Creation should be taught in a secular school as an alternative to Evolution.

Conversely, I see that evolution is so far removed from the scientific method that it doesn't even qualify as a science. My perspective is that evolution is based at least as much on faith and speculation as it is on scientific observations and analyses. There are too many inadequacies in the Theory of Evolution for it to stand as a legitimate, holistic theory for the emergence of new, reproductively isolated species derived ultimately from a single, unicellular Common Ancestor. I have no problem with teaching of fossils of extinct species, genetics or natural selection to show changes within a species over time, but I don't see that it is reasonable to teach an inadequate theory with the hope that science will one day be able to provide reasonable, logical answers to questions that naturally come to ones mind in discussions about evolution.

Bottom line is don't teach creation (religion) or evolution (not real science) in public schools.

 

[MustafaMc]

Has anyone here considered human embryology and development as an analogy to evolution? Who among us can remember being a unicellular zygote (fertilized egg) inside his mother's uterus? Who can remember his first step or the first word he spoke? Has anyone likewise considered the metamorphosis of a caterpillar into a butterfly or a tadpole into a bullfrog?

We have some understanding of these processes, but they don't negate the existence of God and we don't naively believe that they just happen by random chance through the effects of the environment such as "the movement of chemicals, temperature, and sun light". Our knowledge of science and our faith in God gives us a sense of wonder and awe at the majesty and glory of our Creator. Do others have the same sense of awe for 'genetic mutation', 'natural selection' and 'survival of the fittest'?

 

[جوري]

Has anyone here considered human embryology and development as an analogy to evolution? Who among us can remember being a unicellular zygote (fertilized egg) inside his mother's uterus? Who can remember his first step or the first word he spoke? Has anyone likewise considered the metamorphosis of a caterpillar into a butterfly or a tadpole into a bullfrog?

We have some understanding of these processes, but they don't negate the existence of God and we don't naively believe that they just happen by random chance through the effects of the environment such as "the movement of chemicals, temperature, and sun light". Our knowledge of science and our faith in God gives us a sense of wonder and awe at the majesty and glory of our Creator. Do others have the same sense of awe for 'genetic mutation', 'natural selection' and 'survival of the fittest'?

Well they certainly can't happen without a host which begs the question of what came first..

 

[Scimitar]

Chicken or egg??? lol

Evolutionists are some of the stupidest people on the planet. Seriously?

 

[Scimitar]

Do others have the same sense of awe for 'genetic mutation', 'natural selection' and 'survival of the fittest'?

Yes, I do... I also thought about that for a long time and felt there's an amendment in my thinking. I changed "survival of the fittest" to "survival of the favoured"...

...Make sense?

 

[MustafaMc]

Yes, I do... I also thought about that for a long time and felt there's an amendment in my thinking. I changed "survival of the fittest" to "survival of the favoured"...

...Make sense?

Yes, survival of the favored implies that a Higher Power directs the process. My intention was asking if the evolutionists have the same sense of awe for the process of evolution as we have for our Creator. Evolutionists can't even put together a complete outline for the Theory of Evolution that is scientifically sound and reasonable, but rather come up with lame logic like "even with an infinitesimally small chance for something happening, given enough time it is bound to happen and become a reality by mere probability of chance". How can one have a sense of wonder at "chance" and "given enough time"? I am a scientist and I have detailed knowledge of genetics. The process of meiosis, gamete development, sexual union, and embryology makes me say, "Subhana Allah, wa bihamdi, Rabbil 'Alameen."

 

[Ramadhan]

Yes, survival of the favored implies that a Higher Power directs the process. My intention was asking if the evolutionists have the same sense of awe for the process of evolution as we have for our Creator. Evolutionists can't even put together a complete outline for the Theory of Evolution that is scientifically sound and reasonable, but rather come up with lame logic like "even with an infinitesimally small chance for something happening, given enough time it is bound to happen and become a reality by mere probability of chance". How can one have a sense of wonder at "chance" and "given enough time"? I am a scientist and I have detailed knowledge of genetics. The process of meiosis, gamete development, sexual union, and embryology makes me say, "Subhana Allah, wa bihamdi, Rabbil 'Alameen."

I totally get what you mean and do share how you feel everytime I contemplate the natural processes.
I am an engineer by training and so I did not read much natural sciences academically but I am very much science-inclined kind of person, and everytime I read or watch documentaries on subjects ranging from super complex and intertwined and interdependable factors of climate system to quasars and black holes, I am in such a sense of awe and wonder of the power that regulate and make all those things possible. I always thought that astronomers and biologists are more likely to have believe in God more than any other professions because of this (they see direct evidence how complex and yet orderly and yet so simple and yet so beautiful etc the nature is that it is just impossible to have existed out of nothingness randomly).

In the Qur'an in many verses, Allah SWT repeatedly tells us to examine, study the nature, to ponder over them and to comprehend, to reach to the conclusion of the existence of The Creator, such these verses:

In the alternation of night and day and what Allah has created in the heavens and the earth there are Signs for people who fear Him. (QS. Yunus: 6)
The creation of the heavens and earth is greater than the creation of mankind, but most of the people do not know. (QS. Ghafir: 57)
Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day are signs for those of understanding. Who remember Allah while standing or sitting or [lying] on their sides and give thought to the creation of the heavens and the earth, [saying], "Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly; exalted are You [above such a thing]; then protect us from the punishment of the Fire. (QS. Ali Imran: 190-191)

 

[Scimitar]

Darwin himself, said in his book "The Origin of the Species" that his theory was improbable, but if it was true - then it would prove itself within 100years... that was waaay over 100 years ago now, and not a bone, nor a transitional fossil, nada... Time the evolutionists woke up.

I'll soon be uploading a documentary which proves Evolution false. For the meantime you can check out my page here: http://www.youtube.com/user/gangstrous

I'll let you know when the doc is up. I promise, you're gonna really like it.

 

[Jedi_Mindset]

For the atheists here. Explain this, the universe. How it started, atheists believe that universe is elternal while it's proved that the galaxies are all moving away from the core, which means that it was started out of ''nothing''. there must be a cause and who created it?

Why has every human a different psychical look? And animals like monkeys all look like the same (Depends on the breed). There is no way we are evoluated from monkeys, because look what the humans have achieved. No animal have could done that. This explains already that we aren't from animals.

 

[m2p]

Im still waiting for an answer at why their are still monkeys if we evolved from them surely every once in a while you would have some random guy (or girl) jumping out of the zoo's as tarzan.

 

[Tyrion]

For the atheists here. Explain this, the universe. How it started, atheists believe that universe is elternal while it's proved that the galaxies are all moving away from the core, which means that it was started out of ''nothing''. there must be a cause and who created it?

This question has very little to do with evolution...

Im still waiting for an answer at why their are still monkeys if we evolved from them surely every once in a while you would have some random guy (or girl) jumping out of the zoo's as tarzan.

An atheist would just claim that this question demonstrates a severe lack of understanding when it comes to the Theory of Evolution. I think the general idea is that of common descent... So we didn't actually come from monkeys according to the theory.. (someone please correct me if I'm wrong..)

I would recommend that all Muslims who want to question evolution go and actually learn what the theory says before they challenge others... I don't know a whole lot regarding the theory, so I tend to stay out of evolution debates. I would recommend that others who aren't familiar with its basics do the same...

(Also, before anyone assumes anything about my beliefs here... My reason for posting was only to point out that people need to educate themselves first before they start arguing... Know what the other side thinks, or else you'll just end up creating straw men and looking like a fool... Then Islam looks bad too.)

 

[جوري]

I would recommend that all Muslims who want to question evolution go and actually learn what the theory says before they challenge others... I don't know a whole lot regarding the theory, so I tend to stay out of evolution debates. I would suggest that others who aren't familiar with its basics did the same...

The problem is that most evolutionists themselves don't carve out what they mean by 'evolution' they use it as a catch all phrase for both macro and micro-evolution. If it works for one then it should work for another magically.. as if you're purchasing a luxury car & assume the leather seating should come standard.. Well it doesn't it will cost you extra.. So whereas adaptation is indeed demonstrable & provable, 'speciation' isn't .. using those same exact mechanisms..

 

[جوري]

By 'mechanism' here I mean DNA breaks, mutations (missense, nonsense, frame shift, silent' etc all covered here ad nauseam .. God is in the details and the details are elusive to our friends .. I am not personally vested in taking large leaps of faith in science just to appease a few vocal atheists ...

 

[Tyrion]

The problem is that most evolutionists themselves don't carve out what they mean by 'evolution' they use it as a catch all phrase for both macro and micro-evolution. If it works for one then it should work for another magically.. as if you're purchasing a luxury car & assume the leather seating should come standard.. Well it doesn't it will cost you extra.. So whereas adaptation is indeed demonstrable & provable, 'speciation' isn't .. using those same exact mechanisms..

By 'mechanism' here I mean DNA breaks, mutations (missense, nonsense, frame shift, silent' etc all covered here ad nauseam .. God is in the details and the details are elusive to our friends .. I am not personally vested in taking large leaps of faith in science just to appease a few vocal atheists ...

I agree completely, but it's kind of hard to make those points if you've already demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge regarding the topic... I feel terrible when I see an overly enthusiastic member engage an Atheist (who's usually participating in the discussion to mock, or to improve his/her already impressive debate skills) and then proceed to be destroyed because they had no idea what they were talking about... It also doesn't help when you've got members such as yourself who are making good, educated arguments, only to have the discussion interrupted by somebody asking why we still have monkeys in the world... I know there's usually no hope in convincing the other side, but it'd be nice if we didn't supply them with more ammunition... I hope I'm making sense. :

 

[جوري]

I agree completely, but it's kind of hard to make those points if you've already demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge regarding the topic... I feel terrible when I see an overly enthusiastic member engage an Atheist (who's usually participating in the discussion to mock, or to improve his/her already impressive debate skills) and then proceed to be destroyed because they had no idea what they were talking about... It also doesn't help when you've got members such as yourself who are making good, educated arguments, only to have the discussion interrupted by somebody asking why we still have monkeys in the world... I know there's usually no hope in convincing the other side, but it'd be nice if we didn't supply them with more ammunition... I hope I'm making sense. :

we all learn that way believe me, I can understand the zeal, you've the conviction but not the ability to back it up, wisdom comes with age & in making errors along the way we become seasoned .. When I started with the net probably about ten yrs ago, I was part of a community 'cafe liban' before all those forums came about. I didn't even know how to use the 'cut & paste' feature let alone argue with any semblance of logic, so you can imagine the first time, I was stumped by someone attacking Islam with stories of banu Quryzah or the made up stories of asma bint marwan or the allegations of pedophilia.. Oh my God, I'd get literally sick in the stomach, hurl worlds out, copy them all by hands (btw the whole cut & past thing I felt was the greatest invention once I learned of it lol) but I digress.. It took me a really long time to be comfortable with my knowledge (& I don't think I am there yet) but I am certainly not where I started from...

So what if a few unseasoned members learn the hard way? I do cringe sometimes when I see a debate between a 13 year old & a seasoned old fart like our dearly departed 'zoro' but how else will we learn? I am sure a great many people cringe when they see a post from me but you know how the adage goes..
When you're 10 you care what everyone thinks of you, when you're 30 you don't give a fig who thinks what of you and when you're 60 you realize no one thought of you at all lolol..

 

[MustafaMc]

I always thought that astronomers and biologists are more likely to have believe in God more than any other professions

Perhaps you are right. It makes me wonder how much scientific knowledge is really understood by naturalistic evolutionists and how they can be comfortable with the randomness and the zero chance for what they rely upon ever happening by itself. They magically pull a very low probability out of the air and say, "With enough time this low probability will become an actuality."

In the Qur'an in many verses, Allah SWT repeatedly tells us to examine, study the nature, to ponder over them and to comprehend, to reach to the conclusion of the existence of The Creator, such these verses:

In the alternation of night and day and what Allah has created in the heavens and the earth there are Signs for people who fear Him.(QS. Yunus: 6)

Could it be that some people arrogantly deny the existence of God despite the many evidences of a Creator. I think that they deny the Hereafter and do not fear the punishment of their Lord.