Debate: Athiest's VS Christians VS Muslim

[Isambard]

salams what do you think of Dawkins book, this is a question to the Atheists.

Not a big fan of it. Alot of the arguements are re-hashed from earlier dialogues and he puts too much faith on neo-darwinism and 'New Atheism' which ironically fits under the definition of religion.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Gosh i find that amazing!

We are basicly nothing? Since nothing is in us, in order to leave us?

Since we are just living cells, what makes one person evil, and one person good?

I have never heard of good cells, and bad cells!

The list continues....

There is no such thing as "good" and "evil" people, as if they were born that way. The world is not some black and white us vs them good vs evil thing. There is potential in all of us for socially constructive and socially destructive behaviour. Yes, there are sociopaths who do not experience empathy the way the rest of us do and so are more prone for selfish behaviour than others, but that is more about brain chemistry than magic "good" and "evil" spirits controlling us.

My question to you is if we have "souls" that are "good" or "evil", then how is it that medication can effect our social behaviour? Do chemicals alter our souls?

 

[Gator]

salams what do you think of Dawkins book, this is a question to the Atheists.

Never read it.

 

[Grace Seeker]

There is no such thing as "good" and "evil" people, as if they were born that way. The world is not some black and white us vs them good vs evil thing. There is potential in all of us for socially constructive and socially destructive behaviour. Yes, there are sociopaths who do not experience empathy the way the rest of us do and so are more prone for selfish behaviour than others, but that is more about brain chemistry than magic "good" and "evil" spirits controlling us.

My question to you is if we have "souls" that are "good" or "evil", then how is it that medication can effect our social behaviour? Do chemicals alter our souls?

You spoke of socially constructive and social destructive behavior, is one of those to be considered "good" and another "evil" by your way of thinking? Do the terms "good" or "evil" have any meaning at all for you?



I don't know about good and evil souls, maybe I'm an agnostic in that particular area. I think we are souls that temporarily inhabit bodies and that also make good and evil choices.

Also, I think whether something is good or evil can only be determined by comparing it to a standard of absolute Good. (Evil simply being the absence of good, like cold is the absence of heat and dark is the absence of light.) Good is that which reflects the nature and character of God's holiness; and apart from God, there is no good.

 

[truemuslim]

yay i thought it was done for... thanks doctor grace for bringing my thread back wit the shocking thingy they do (forgot the name)

 

[Grace Seeker]

yay i thought it was done for... thanks doctor grace for bringing my thread back wit the shocking thingy they do (forgot the name)

You mean I "resurrected" your thread?

lets get this even mroe... hmm..

christians u believe jesus is son of god and yet u worship jesus...why?

This was back on the first page, did you ever get anyone to address it? Are you still interested in it?

I'll not debate just for debate's sake, but if you are seriously wanting to know how and why it is that Christians can in one breath say that we worship only one God and in the next say that we worship Jesus, I'll be glad to try to help you understand how it is we think about this. Not to convince you (sorry, that's up to God to do, not me) but simply to explain why we do not see this as being inherently contradictory -- though I am sure you do.

 

[truemuslim]

no one answered it yet so go ahead.lol

 

[Grace Seeker]

Primarily it is because we understand that Jesus is the incarnation of the one God. Thus we don't end up with a second God, we still have just the one God who has made himself known by revealing himself in a new way.

One might then reasonably ask:

Why, if Jesus is God, does he then pray to God, or cry out to God for help?
or
How, if Jesus is God, can God remain sovereign and infinite while trapped in a finite human body?
or
What happens, if Jesus is God, to God when Jesus supposedly dies on the cross?​

Well, first, I don't actually have to be able to answer any of those question for me to know that it is still true. The scriptures tell us that Jesus is God. If we trust the scriptures to speak truth, then we know it is true even if we don't understand the how or why of it all?

Second, I need to continually remind myself that it was not later generations of the church that said that Jesus was God, it was the disciples themselves who declared this to be so in their sermons, in their teaching, in their telling the story of the Jesus that they had known, eaten with, walked with, and in some cases, even seen crucified and then raised again from the dead. This understanding has been key to defining who and what Christians were while Paul was yet still simply another Jew intent on stamping out this new movement in its infancy before they even had been given given the name "Christian" because of what they taught about the Christ.

Third, this experience of the early church (pre-Pauline) was that Jesus was both Lord and God, the holy One of Israel, one being with the Father. They had not yet articulated concepts like the Trinity; they were still looking for words to describe it. But they knew, out of their own experience, that it was true; assumedly based on the resurrection and the presence of God flooding their lives in a new way in the person of the Holy Spirit as well. Thus, the early church would do two things: (1) they would proclaim this simple message of God in Christ and (2) they would look for better words and ways to express this understanding. Over time those words would come, big fancy words like "hypostatic union" and "perichoresis", words that were brand new then but have become common place today like "trinity".

These were not things that they took lightly. After all, they were all Jews. Jews who were passionate about the great texts of their faith: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." And yet, they knew this Jesus to be God. They had been listening when he was examined while on trial in the Sanhedrin and they had asked him, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am" (Luke 22:70). They had seen him do things that could only be done by the power of God and they had heard him claim things, like forgiving sins, that were reserved to God alone to claim (Luke 5:17-26).

But it was the resurrection that sealed the deal. It lead Thomas to call him not just Lord, but also God (John 20:28), and Jesus blessed him for it. It lead Peter and Stephen and others to preach this message about a new way that God was dealing with humanity, through the cross of Christ and that salvation could be found no other place than in his name.

To those, such as modern day Muslims, and Jews from that old Pharisee Paul to the present day, or to anyone else who can only conceive of God in a narrowly defined box, the idea of lifting up Jesus as being this very same God is blasphemous. But it is what we believe, and that is why we have no problem worshipping Jesus, because in doing so we understand that we are worshipping the same God as before, the one God who created heaven and earth has also walked among us and died for fallen humanity. Whatever name you may know him by: Yahweh, Allah, the great I AM, his name is also Jesus. He is one and the same.

It is not shirk, for we declare no partners, what we declare is that he is great enough to be both present and invisible, human and infinite, Father and Son (and Holy Spirit) all at the same time and still be just one.

 

[truemuslim]

...wow...thats loong... im sure i will ..try..to finish it all tho...juss a minute

 

[truemuslim]

1. God Is All Knowing.....But Jesus Was Not
When speaking of the Day of Judgement, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt. 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the Day of Judgement would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.
2. God Is All-Powerful.....But Jesus Was Not
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..." (John 5:19). Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) But God is not only All-Powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.
3. God Does Not Have A God.....But Jesus Did Have A God
God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was One whom he worshipped and to Whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17). He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46). If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?". Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's Prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt. 26:36). Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.
According to the Bible, God is an invisible spirit....
4. But Jesus Was Flesh And Blood
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said: "No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18). "Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." (John 5:37) He also said in John 4:24: "God is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.
NO ONE IS GREATER THAN GOD AND NO ONE CAN DIRECT HIM...
BUT JESUS ACKNOWLEDGED
SOMEONE GREATER THAN HIMSELF WHOSE...
5. Will Was Distinct From His Own
Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, comes again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in John 14:28: "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as a good master in Luke 18:19, Jesus responded: "Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." (John 8:42) Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God, when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but Thine be done" and in John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.
Conclusion
The Church recognises the Bible as the primary source of knowledge about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what basis have you come to believe otherwise?
The belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as presented in the Bible. God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity.
If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

 

[Grace Seeker]

You are doing a cut and paste job. I did not. Please take the time to read what I wrote. I covered your whole post in my last paragraph:

what we declare is that he is great enough to be both present and invisible, human and infinite, Father and Son (and Holy Spirit) all at the same time and still be just one.

 

[truemuslim]

of ourse its a copy and paste...lol u seriously typed all that!!? lol and i did read it but it doesnt make jesus seem powerful enough to actually be god...

 

[Grace Seeker]

Yes, I did. Why? Because I was willing to take you seriously, and give you a real response, not something that was written as some sort of apologetic's exercise.

Conclusion
The Church recognises the Bible as the primary source of knowledge about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what basis have you come to believe otherwise?
The belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as presented in the Bible. God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity.
If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

Such a conclusion is not even close to a correct statement of what the either the church recognizes or the Bible makes clear.

Colossians 1
15He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Note, it specifically DOES say that "in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him." The term "firstborn" here does not imply that he is a created being either. I would be glad to explain it, but you objected to my last post as long, and surely going into the the language and cultural issues behind that term would make it a long post as well. Suffice it to say that Christ is OVER creation not a part OF creation.

Also, I said that I would post "if you are seriously wanting to know how and why it is that Christians [believe something]". But I was not interested in debate for debate's sake. So, are you seeking to learn or to argue?

 

[john316]

1. God Is All Knowing.....But Jesus Was Not
When speaking of the Day of Judgement, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt. 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the Day of Judgement would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.
2. God Is All-Powerful.....But Jesus Was Not
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..." (John 5:19). Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) But God is not only All-Powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.
3. God Does Not Have A God.....But Jesus Did Have A God
God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was One whom he worshipped and to Whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17). He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46). If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?". Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's Prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt. 26:36). Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.
According to the Bible, God is an invisible spirit....
4. But Jesus Was Flesh And Blood
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said: "No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18). "Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." (John 5:37) He also said in John 4:24: "God is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.
NO ONE IS GREATER THAN GOD AND NO ONE CAN DIRECT HIM...
BUT JESUS ACKNOWLEDGED
SOMEONE GREATER THAN HIMSELF WHOSE...
5. Will Was Distinct From His Own
Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, comes again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in John 14:28: "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as a good master in Luke 18:19, Jesus responded: "Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." (John 8:42) Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God, when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but Thine be done" and in John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.
Conclusion
The Church recognises the Bible as the primary source of knowledge about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what basis have you come to believe otherwise?
The belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as presented in the Bible. God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity.
If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

I kinda understand that you have good sincere questions wbut like i said before in other thread. Jesus took on the image of sinful man. but was God by nature in the sense that He never sinned, while he walked on Earth. He aks the rich young man at one instance when the man called him good. he said why do you call me good there is none good but God. He was basically saying if I'm good I am God.
Another argument Jesus was on earth not on heaven. heaven is a totally different dimension which we know nothing about. On earth you dont see everything but in heaven you see everything. So it is apparent whe Jesus got to heaven he would probably know everything. Notice that everywhere in English versions of the scripure we call Jesus 'Lord' or 'God' we dont call him 'lord' or 'god'. because God is refered to the one true God. God is never called 'god' or 'lord'

 

[truemuslim]

^ none... im seeking to debate...ok and learn...and about hte copy paste i read all i pasted before i pasted it of course and it seems to be really close to what i already was going to type.. but more info...

also i have some questions for u...and they gonna keep on comin so...

1. Have any of your prayers ever, in actuality, been answered?

2. Is it possible that the devout Catholic, Adolph Hitler, could be in heaven if he had truly repented prior to his death?

3. To what sorts of depravity would you descend if it were proved there was no god?

answer these first?

 

[Sheffield]

lets get this even mroe... hmm..

christians u believe jesus is son of god and yet u worship jesus...why?

agnostics... wait i cant ask a question about that for two reasons.. 1) agnostics dont debate like u said and 2) i dunt even kno what ur religion is..sorry

athiests... hmm.. i already asked: athiests why do u believe no god exists?

and muslims...wait im debating on the muslim side so i cant...hehe

We are all sons and daughters of God the Father.

Jesus said he is the Son of God.

Muslims believe that Jesus is a prophet so how can Moslem's not believe his words?

Now my questions to you is:

Muslims believe that Christians before Muhammad went to heaven, and Muhammad is the last prophet, so why do you debate the truth of the bible? Do you believe that God was initially wrong?

 

[truemuslim]

no, first, please tell me who said christians who died before muhammed are going to heaven? (jw) and second... what happened to the people who died before jesus?

 

[Sheffield]

1. Have any of your prayers ever, in actuality, been answered?

2. Is it possible that the devout Catholic, Adolph Hitler, could be in heaven if he had truly repented prior to his death?

3. To what sorts of depravity would you descend if it were proved there was no god?

answer these first?

I assume from this you do not believe in God.

Some people take up a religion or cult not because they believe it, but because it suits their ideals - especially negative ones.

Muhammad became a Christian before he became a Muslim.

But then after he was rejected by Christan's, why did Mohammad begin to worship in the Ka'ab while there were still idols in it, and in the same fashion as the pagan Arabs?

After destroying Mecca, he later he removed the idols. There was one idol though, it was the moon god, it was called allah. It's symbol was of a moon and star. It has been around long before Mohammad.

So my question is, after Mohammad was rejected by the Christians, why did he command that all Muslims stop praying upwards and begin praying facing the Ka'ab, and why did he lock the Ka'ab. Was the moon god removed also or do you not know?

 

[Heera Singh]

Now my questions to you is:

Muslims believe that Christians before Muhammad went to heaven, and Muhammad is the last prophet, so why do you debate the truth of the bible? Do you believe that God was initially wrong?

I'm not muslim but I'll jump in here.

How can you state the bible as truth, when it was compiled years (even decades) after the death of Jesus? there's no way to verify the writings in there to be accurate... and there is enough proof to determine even over the years the bible has been tampered with, and even christians i kno won't refute that claim... so, do you believe God would allow His 'word' to be altered?

 

[Sheffield]

no, first, please tell me who said christians who died before muhammed are going to heaven? (jw) and second... what happened to the people who died before jesus?

The scrolls containing the old testament were around before Jesus.

Christianity goes back to the begining and follows a time line spanding over 2000 years before Jesus, that is why it is used by archaeologist to study ancient history.

Prophets before Muhammad are the prophets of Moslems as well, nothing is disputed of Christianity before Muhammad by Muhammad. He the only the last prophet for Muslims, he was preaching about God just as Jesus was.

At least before the Ka'ab anyway.