Debate: Athiest's VS Christians VS Muslim

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Skavau said:
Are you alleging that I am a closet theist?

Because you would be wrong. Do not presume what I think. Any chance of the questions I asked being answered?
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Call yourself what you will...
 
ummsara1108 said:
I haven't presumed anything, only by your own statements I come to the conclusion, that the answers are before you and yet you ignore them, simply because you don't believe, only when you do believe will you unserstand.
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And yet, I don't believe. I've never seen such a self-defeating statement before as I have with 'You don't believe and when you believe you will understand'.

And what answers are before me?

ummsara1108 said:
With you it's an agree to disagree debate
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I asked for evidence for your claims and you appear unable or unwilling to provide. Where is the agreeing to disagreeing?
 
Ok then read a bible, a torah or a koran, how's that? I'm not making any spacifics, will you take my advice now? Of course not
 
ummsara1108 said:
Ok then read a bible, a torah or a koran, how's that? I'm not making any spacifics, will you take my advice now? Of course not
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I intend to read as much literature as possible in time. (Withstanding things I am not interested in).

ummsara1108 said:
Do you believe there is a god?
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My profile says Atheist. You even acknowledged that, so no I don't.
 
I have also given you some answers but again you refuse to take it into consideration. You just want to keep accusing me of avoiding the questions.
 
Skavau said:
I intend to read as much literature as possible in time. (Withstanding things I am not interested in).


My profile says Atheist. You even acknowledged that, so no I don't.
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Why get so upset when I mentioned you didn't believe? If you don't believe?

I wasn't lying now was I?
 
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ummsara1108 said:
Why get so upset when I mentioned you didn't believe?
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Eh? You alleged that I was in fact a Theist in denial. That was mentioning that I was believing.

ummsara1108 said:
I have also given you some answers but again you refuse to take it into consideration. You just want to keep accusing me of avoiding the questions.
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You just redirect me to a website or telling me to read the Quran. It is complete avoidance of answering the questions. It is like me making a large statement, then when being asked to back up and support said statement - telling the person to 'go find the truth' or 'read this' or 'go to this website'.

It is not really a discussion or debate then at all.
 
Skavau said:
Eh? You alleged that I was in fact a Theist in denial. That was mentioning that I was believing.


You just redirect me to a website or telling me to read the Quran. It is complete avoidance of answering the questions. It is like me making a large statement, then when being asked to back up and support said statement - telling the person to 'go find the truth' or 'read this' or 'go to this website'.

It is not really a discussion or debate then at all.
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why are you in an islamic forum? if what they say means nothing?
 
ummsara1108 said:
why are you in an islamic forum? if what they say means nothing?
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Discussion, Debate, Interest. I visit other forums for the same reason.

And you obviously did not read what I said. It is the refusal to back up claims which mean nothing to the discussion.
 
so now, Skavau wants 'proof'? so, by ur own statement, that would make you irrational...
 
Heera Singh said:
so now, Skavau wants 'proof'? so, by ur own statement, that would make you irrational...
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I never said 'proof'. If I did consider it changed for evidence.

And proof is not evidence. In science or philosophy nothing can be falsified, there is no certainty over any viewpoint - only evidence and reason give weight to a viewpoint.
 
You might want to check out a dictionary and look up 'evidence'.

Stop backtracking on what you said; you've said in several posts you want 'evidence' and 'where's the proof'. Stop contradicting yourself.

Again I ask you, what will it take for you to believe there is a God? OBVIOUSLY you would need some sort of Proof, otherwise you wouldn't believe.
 
ummsara1108 said:
Truemuslim,

Do you believe christians do not have miracals they believe in? Or just that they never happen? Just wondering
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i dunt kno... im asking them what there miracles are the ones wit the prophets or not? ..so i dunno. :D:w:
 
Heera Singh said:
You might want to check out a dictionary and look up 'evidence'.
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You might want to follow your own advice, it's rather more complicated than the one-liner given earlier. 'Evidence' is not the same as proof. A better one-liner is "thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment". A sufficient body of evidence is generally held to constitute 'proof' according to the common use of the word although whether such evidence actually does must be a matter of opinion. That is why this argument is ultimately futile... evidence that muslims consider 'proof' atheists will not consider proof. It is my very humble opinion that the evidence for God could only be considered anything resembling 'proof' if you happen to believe what is being 'proven' in the first place (i.e. you have FAITH) but no doubt theists will disagree.
 
Trumble said:
You might want to follow your own advice, it's rather more complicated than the one-liner given earlier. 'Evidence' is not the same as proof. A better one-liner is "thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment". A sufficient body of evidence is generally held to constitute 'proof' according to the common use of the word although whether such evidence actually does must be a matter of opinion. That is why this argument is ultimately futile... evidence that muslims consider 'proof' atheists will not consider proof. It is my very humble opinion that the evidence for God could only be considered anything resembling 'proof' if you happen to believe what is being 'proven' in the first place (i.e. you have FAITH) but no doubt theists will disagree.
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I understand what you're saying, i think... however the context of using the word 'evidence' when saying "show me evidence" technically implies 'show me proof'. That was the context which the other member had posted his/her response, and that is the context in which i'm replying.
 
Heera Singh said:
Stop backtracking on what you said; you've said in several posts you want 'evidence' and 'where's the proof'. Stop contradicting yourself.
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Tell me - was proof typed as 'proof'?

Heera Singh said:
Again I ask you, what will it take for you to believe there is a God? OBVIOUSLY you would need some sort of Proof, otherwise you wouldn't believe.
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I don't know what it would take me to believe there is a God. It would take evidence indicating God, and not 'proof' since it is impossible to reach that level.

Direct empirical evidence of God's existence? A logical reason or deduction to presume that the existence of God is necessary?
 
Greetings,

Unfortunately, no-one has yet engaged Skavau on anything approaching the level that this debate demands. Any impartial observer would surely have to conclude that he is miles ahead of the opposition at this stage. Being an atheist like he is, and therefore not impartial, I can't really make that judgement, of course.

However, saying things like "the Qur'an proves it" and "miracles are evidence of God's existence" do not help the Muslim argument in any way. The first, to an atheist, is about as sensible as saying "It's all in The Lord of the Rings - that's how it happened. It's all written there, and all you have to do is read!"

The second statement is unhelpful for several reasons. The age of miracles, if it ever truly existed, seems now to be over, unless we accept the ludicrous stories of Jesus' face appearing in a loaf of bread etc. One reason why it is over is because people are not as easily fooled as they used to be. So, in essence, our best available evidence for miracles having happened are religious texts written by people whose understanding of the world was immensely primitive compared to ours in most areas (I'm leaving aside the argument about who actually wrote the Qur'an here).

So, if these non-arguments are the best that people can come up with, the atheists here will be kicking into an open goal. Pointless, really. Neither side is really learning anything at this stage.

[Does anyone know what happened to Ansar Al-'Adl? Now there was a man who could debate in a thought-provoking way. I really miss him.]

Peace
 
truemuslim said:
i dunt kno... im asking them what there miracles are the ones wit the prophets or not? ..so i dunno. :D:w:
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Oh ok, yes I believe all of them are from only prophets, same as muslims for the most part, infant talking, bringing a bird to life, healing, ect. hope it ansers your question...
 
ummsara1108 said:
Oh ok, yes I believe all of them are from only prophets, same as muslims for the most part, infant talking, bringing a bird to life, healing, ect. hope it ansers your question...
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oh ok...so all the miracles in christianity are the same as in islam (almost...) but mixed up...:D:w:
 
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