Debate: Athiest's VS Christians VS Muslim

[Heera Singh]

What messengers, miracles and revelations did Allah send down? Do you mean Muhammad and the Quran? Please demonstrate how both are evidence of the existence of some cosmic arbiter.


So then you will surely have no problem directing us to these clear 'proofs'?


Do we have any evidence of these claims? Keep in mind that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


See above. Can we see this evidence that any of that happened?

there...

 

[ummsara1108]

oh ok...so all the miracles in christianity are the same as in islam (almost...) but mixed up...

yes for the most part, i'd say 90% if not more

 

[truemuslim]

^ lol yah

 

[Heera Singh]

miracles happen in all corners of the world at all times, we just don't realize it sometimes... they happen to people with and without faith... i kno of a situation where an atheist who was really against the notion of God one day started to believe by a God-Conscious soul merely touching his hand and greeting him... one can see that as a miracle of the lord..

there have been saints/prophets/god conscious souls from all faiths.. and even those of no 'specific' faith..

The glory of the lord cannot be determined by anybody..

 

[Skavau]

Why thank you Heera Singh. You will notice I said: 'proofs' rather than proofs.

It was a reference to what ummsara said. It was her claim, so I use her language. If someone says 'I can prove X' then I ask 'How can you 'prove' X.

 

[ummsara1108]

The American Heritage® Science Dictionary
Copyright © 2002 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law - Cite This Source - Share This
Main Entry: proof
Function: noun
Etymology: alteration of Middle English preove, from Old French preuve, from Late Latin proba, from Latin probare to prove
1 : the effect of evidence sufficient to persuade a reasonable person that a particular fact exists —see also EVIDENCE
2 : the establishment or persuasion by evidence that a particular fact exists —see also BURDEN OF PROOF
3 : something (as evidence) that proves or tends to prove the existence of a particular fact —see also CLEAR AND CONVINCING, PREPONDERANCE OF THE EVIDENCE, REASONABLE DOUBT, STANDARD OF PROOF —compare ALLEGATION, ARGUMENT
4 : PROBATE 1a

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

 

[ummsara1108]

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law - Cite This Source - Share This
Main Entry: ev·i·dence
Pronunciation: 'e-v&-d&ns, -"dens
Function: noun
Etymology: Medieval Latin evidentia, from Latin, that which is obvious, from evident- evidens clear, obvious, from e- out of, from + videns, present participle of videre to see
: something that furnishes or tends to furnish proof; especially : something (as testimony, writings, or objects) presented at a judicial or administrative proceeding for the purpose of establishing the truth or falsity of an alleged matter of fact —see also ADMISSIBLE, BEST EVIDENCE RULE, EXCLUSIONARY RULE, EXHIBIT, FOUNDATION, OBJECTION,, PREPONDERANCE OF THE EVIDENCE, RELEVANT, SCINTILLA, STATE'S EVIDENCE, SUPPRESS, TESTIMONY, WITNESS Federal Rules of Evidence in the IMPORTANT LAWS section —compare ALLEGATION, ARGUMENT, PROOF

 

[Isambard]

miracles happen in all corners of the world at all times, we just don't realize it sometimes... they happen to people with and without faith... i kno of a situation where an atheist who was really against the notion of God one day started to believe by a God-Conscious soul merely touching his hand and greeting him... one can see that as a miracle of the lord..

there have been saints/prophets/god conscious souls from all faiths.. and even those of no 'specific' faith..

The glory of the lord cannot be determined by anybody..

Why dont said miracles ever happen to amputees? Does God ahte them or something?

 

[Heera Singh]

Why dont said miracles ever happen to amputees? Does God ahte them or something?

who said they don't???

"as you sow, so shall you reap" -- what goes around comes around. We believe in Karma and re-incarnation. Something that you did in this lifetime or your past lives, you will reap the 'fruit' of that action, whether it be good or bad.

I know of a situation where there was a man was polio-stricken, but thru his praise and contemplation of the Lord, he became able to walk (not 100%), and his disease was far less effecting him then before he started to focus his mind and energy on the Lord. He was told by a very God conscious soul told him the reason he was unable to walk from birth is because in his last life he had beaten a dog with a stick and broke the dogs spine, where the dog was unable to walk after that. The dog was a shelterless hungry dog that had taken the mans food, which caused the man to get angry and injure the dog. His lack of compassion and misdeeds resulted him paying the consequences in this lifetime. He is living in high spirits and has devoted his life to serving God.

In fact, I personally know of a person who was handicapped (couldn't walk) and is now walking perfectly fine - all after he became a devout follower of the Lord.

So miracles do happen, all the time... God doesn't hate anybody... God is Love... but, we all pay for our actions in either this lifetime or one of our future lifteimes...

Bless!!

 

[Isambard]

who said they don't???

"as you sow, so shall you reap" -- what goes around comes around. We believe in Karma and re-incarnation. Something that you did in this lifetime or your past lives, you will reap the 'fruit' of that action, whether it be good or bad.

I know of a situation where there was a man was polio-stricken, but thru his praise and contemplation of the Lord, he became able to walk (not 100%), and his disease was far less effecting him then before he started to focus his mind and energy on the Lord. He was told by a very God conscious soul told him the reason he was unable to walk from birth is because in his last life he had beaten a dog with a stick and broke the dogs spine, where the dog was unable to walk after that. The dog was a shelterless hungry dog that had taken the mans food, which caused the man to get angry and injure the dog. His lack of compassion and misdeeds resulted him paying the consequences in this lifetime. He is living in high spirits and has devoted his life to serving God.

In fact, I personally know of a person who was handicapped (couldn't walk) and is now walking perfectly fine - all after he became a devout follower of the Lord.

So miracles do happen, all the time... God doesn't hate anybody... God is Love... but, we all pay for our actions in either this lifetime or one of our future lifteimes...

Bless!!

You completely side-stepped my comment.

I pointed out that miracles never happen to amputees. Show me documented cases were someone grows back a limb after praying to God.

 

[Heera Singh]

and you've misunderstood my point... u think the only miracles that could've happened to an amputee would be to grow back a limb?? 'miracle' is very open phrase which can mean many diff things...

i personally don't know of anybody growing back a limb... but, because sum1 doesn't grow back a limb, ur gonna come to the conclusion that there's no such thing as miracles? (not you, just saying in general) if that is the case, then thats not a very good argument...

who knows, a 'miracle' could be that they have been given an artificial limb and are now able to walk or play or do other things they normally wouldn't have been able to do... again, i say, the 'definition' of miracle is very broad...

 

[Skavau]

and you've misunderstood my point... u think the only miracles that could've happened to an amputee would be to grow back a limb?? 'miracle' is very open phrase which can mean many diff things...

i personally don't know of anybody growing back a limb... but, because sum1 doesn't grow back a limb, ur gonna come to the conclusion that there's no such thing as miracles? (not you, just saying in general) if that is the case, then thats not a very good argument...

who knows, a 'miracle' could be that they have been given an artificial limb and are now able to walk or play or do other things they normally wouldn't have been able to do... again, i say, the 'definition' of miracle is very broad...

You have a very low standards for miracles. Generally, they are considered positive breaches of natural law by supernatural intervention.

 

[Pygoscelis]

So although in biblical times miracles could mean fantastic things like splitting moons or parting rivers or raining frogs, today they consist only of events that aren't really that fantastic or different than simple good luck? God frontloaded the Miracle tray?

 

[Heera Singh]

You have a very low standards for miracles. Generally, they are considered positive breaches of natural law by supernatural intervention.

So, a person with polio who is now able to walk literally after he started to devote his life to God is of 'low standard'? a deaf person who is now able to hear since he started to devote his life to God is of 'low standard'?? what about if i told you about a guy who's cancer 'mysteriously' left his body once he devoted his life to God, woud that still be of low standard?? but no, u want something HUGE like a person 'parting rivers' (as said above)... and even THEN, u'll find somethin wrong about it or disbelieve it...

see this is the problem with you, and people like you... you're so set on ur opinion, that you're not here to learn or anything... no matter what, u won't change ur opinion... God cud communicate directly with you (in whatever way) and you STILL wouldn't believe... so i'm wasting my time speakin with you... because u won't change ur mind (not that i'm here to change ur mind), but ur so closed minded that u refuse to listen to anything outside of ur own thought process...

you don't believe in God, thats fine, i cud care less.. doesn't affect me one way or another... but if ur gonna go into a discussion, go in with an open mind and with the intention to learn (which it doesn't seem like you are doing here)... u said u want 'evidence', and then u say 'asking for proof is irrational'... asking for evidence IS asking for proof... u can check as many dictionaries as u want... ask as many english majors as u want... and still, u refuse to acknowledge that MAYBE u were wrong in that statement...

 

[Skavau]

So, a person with polio who is now able to walk literally after he started to devote his life to God is of 'low standard'?

It is a better standard. But then I never used that as an example for a low standard.

Stop making strawmen.

a deaf person who is now able to hear since he started to devote his life to God is of 'low standard'?? what about if i told you about a guy who's cancer 'mysteriously' left his body once he devoted his life to God, woud that still be of low standard?? but no, u want something HUGE like a person 'parting rivers' (as said above)... and even THEN, u'll find somethin wrong about it or disbelieve it...

If all of the above can be shown to have happened, then it would be a higher standard than what I said.

Stop making strawmen.

see this is the problem with you, and people like you... you're so set on ur opinion, that you're not here to learn or anything... no matter what, u won't change ur opinion... God cud communicate directly with you (in whatever way) and you STILL wouldn't believe... so i'm wasting my time speakin with you... because u won't change ur mind (not that i'm here to change ur mind), but ur so closed minded that u refuse to listen to anything outside of ur own thought process

Who are 'people like me'?

And you do realise the purpose of this thread, right? A debate between Christians, Muslims and Atheists. Why exactly are you getting so heated up over disagreements. That is the point of this thread

 

[Heera Singh]

I'm not getting heated... 'people like you' meaning people that are so set on their opnion in one way or another (whether be atheist strongly believing NO God, or a Christian believing only they are saved etc..) that they refuse to acknowledge thigns the other side might say, and find any way to 'debunk' the other sides comments..

a debate is a discussion between 2 or more parties which is explaining their own reasons for their belief, which DOES involve rebuttle, but when it comes to a point where the other side isn't willing to listen or doesn't want to learn anything with an open mind, then whats the point?

 

[Isambard]

So, a person with polio who is now able to walk literally after he started to devote his life to God is of 'low standard'? a deaf person who is now able to hear since he started to devote his life to God is of 'low standard'?? what about if i told you about a guy who's cancer 'mysteriously' left his body once he devoted his life to God, woud that still be of low standard?? but no, u want something HUGE like a person 'parting rivers' (as said above)... and even THEN, u'll find somethin wrong about it or disbelieve it...

see this is the problem with you, and people like you... you're so set on ur opinion, that you're not here to learn or anything... no matter what, u won't change ur opinion... God cud communicate directly with you (in whatever way) and you STILL wouldn't believe... so i'm wasting my time speakin with you... because u won't change ur mind (not that i'm here to change ur mind), but ur so closed minded that u refuse to listen to anything outside of ur own thought process...

you don't believe in God, thats fine, i cud care less.. doesn't affect me one way or another... but if ur gonna go into a discussion, go in with an open mind and with the intention to learn (which it doesn't seem like you are doing here)... u said u want 'evidence', and then u say 'asking for proof is irrational'... asking for evidence IS asking for proof... u can check as many dictionaries as u want... ask as many english majors as u want... and still, u refuse to acknowledge that MAYBE u were wrong in that statement...

This is just hilarious. You just keep shifting the goal-post and engaging in strawmen and get mad at us for wasting your time.:exhausted

 

[Heera Singh]

who said i'm gettin madd??? and wha's 'strawmen'???

 

[Skavau]

I'm not getting heated... 'people like you' meaning people that are so set on their opnion in one way or another (whether be atheist strongly believing NO God, or a Christian believing only they are saved etc..)

What makes you think I am so set in my opinion? All I have done is ask for evidence for claims made here. What precisely is wrong with that?

that they refuse to acknowledge thigns the other side might say, and find any way to 'debunk' the other sides comments..

So where I have I done that?

a debate is a discussion between 2 or more parties which is explaining their own reasons for their belief, which DOES involve rebuttle, but when it comes to a point where the other side isn't willing to listen or doesn't want to learn anything with an open mind, then whats the point?

So where have I been refusing to listen?

 

[Isambard]

I'm not getting heated... 'people like you' meaning people that are so set on their opnion in one way or another (whether be atheist strongly believing NO God, or a Christian believing only they are saved etc..) that they refuse to acknowledge thigns the other side might say, and find any way to 'debunk' the other sides comments..

a debate is a discussion between 2 or more parties which is explaining their own reasons for their belief, which DOES involve rebuttle, but when it comes to a point where the other side isn't willing to listen or doesn't want to learn anything with an open mind, then whats the point?

We'll listen when you start citing evidence of your grand claims and stop engaging in non-arguements or fallacies.

You still havent cited evidence in your discussion with Skav, and you merely redifined what a miracle is when I called you on the amputee thing. Then you shifted your position again when you were called on it.