Debate: Why do some people completely reject hadith?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

And who says that these people are reliable? God or man?

Are you saying that Islamically we cannot take witnesses from human beings unless God has endorsed them? Think again:
24:4. And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever, they indeed are the sinful.

If God has declared that we can hold the testimony of four witnesses (everyday people) to be sufficient for the implementation of 100 lashes, who are you to say that we cannot consider reliable the testimony numerous scholars known for their virtue, truthfulness and piety? Is it conceivable that these righteous scholars would unanimously conspire together to make the Muslim ummah believe in a lie?

Moreover, God HAS endorsed the testimony of the scholars as a group:
3:18 There is no god but He: That is the witness of Allah, His angels, AND THOSE ENDUED WITH KNOWLEDGE, standing firm on justice. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise.

So are you saying that all knowledge coming from the Messenger passe through his companions first?

I'm saying that it was the Prophet pbuh considered reliable and sufficient.

Excuse me but you are the one who said

Yes, that in no way implies knowledge was lost. They heard the Prophet's teachings well because the Prophet pbuh ensured that he was speaking in an easily understood manner, and in addition to that, if they did not hear they would ask for clarification. By no means would they transmit something that was only faintly heard. And there was no knowledge to be conveyed that was only faintly heard by the companions, hence no divine knowledge was lost.

You are now contradicting yourself because you just said that they wouldn't transmit the info. if they couldn't hear him.

I said they woudn't transmit info that they faintly heard. They would transmit info after they had verified from the Prophet pbuh himself what was said.

I only believe that the Quran was the only thing inspired to him, you don't.

Really? I have a challenge for you:

66:3 And when the Prophet confided to one of his wives a certain matter; and then, when she told of it, and God disclosed that to him, he made known part of it, and turned aside from part; then, when he told her of it, she said, 'Who told thee this?' He said, 'I WAS TOLD OF IT BY THE ALL-KNWOING, THE ALL-AWARE.'

The Prophet pbuh says in the above ayat that God informed him about what his wives had done (naba'aniyal aleem al-khabeer) : show me the ayat in the Qur'an where Allah swt disclosed this information. If you cannot then you must concede that the Prophet pbuh recieved other divine information not mentioned in the Qur'an.

Again, why hasn't the Quran gone through a system of "authentication"?

Because it is mutawâtir - it has been unanimously transmitted that it is incoceivable that all sources would agree upon error. Likewise, here is a list of mutawâtir hadith:
http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/Index.asp?Lang=ENG&Type=3

But you just said that some things the companions wouldn't transmit because of lack of hearing.

I didn't say that. I said IF they didn't hear it properly they would not have transmitted it.

You seem to have the belief that all knowledge was passed through the companions first, is that true?

How else would it be passed on?

What I accept is the QUran only, therefore I believe that it is the Quran that only the Messenger spoke of and is the only thing that was inspired to he Messenger. That is it. I didn't get into detail with you about what I believe he has explained, but you should look at the Quran and see what the Quran has commanded the Messenger to say at times. And I don't believe that we are commanded to follow the SUnnah of the PRophet, I believe that we are commanded to follow the SUnnah of Allah.

So not only do you reject the hadith but you reject the Sunnah too?

How do you explain all the verses which command us to not only obey Allah swt but also to obey the directives of the Prophet pbuh? And what about the verse which tells us that the Prophet pbuh is our best example?

33:21 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

Why are we instructed to follow the Prophet pbuh's pattern of conduct if the Qur'an is our only source? Why does the Qur'an say:

3:31 Say (O Muhammad pbuh to mankind): If you (really) love Allah THEN FOLLOW ME, Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful

He didn't just say accept the Qur'an, it explcitly shows that love of Allah swt is not enough unless you follow the sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

4:65 But no, by your Lord (O Muhammad), they have no Faith, until they make thee judge in ALL disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

Why does Allah swt endorse the judgements of the Prophet pbuh in the above verse and command all muslims to accept his decisions if the only thing we are commanded to accept is the Qur'an?

Why does the Qur'an tell us to accept what the Prophet pbuh gives and leave what he forbids? Why doesn't it say to accept and leave only what the Qur'an permits and forbids?

59:7 So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah. for Allah is strict in Punishment.

Ok, well show me the Quran verse that says that Allah has protected the Quran and more.

Allah swt has protected ALL revelation to the Prophet pbuh:
15:9 Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).
The Dhikr includes ALL revelation here. Even if you argue that it is only the Qur'an, since we need the sunnah to follow the Qur'an, then it necessitates that it is also preserved.

Please give me the Quran verse that says that the Saheeh haidths are divine.

Red-herring. The Qur'an states that the statements of the Prophet pbuh are divinely inspired - therefore if something is proven to be from him it is also divinely inspired.

You are missing the point of what I am saying... I am asking you point out the QUran verse that says that ALlah has protected these hadiths by a system that man had created.

Do you acknowledge that Allah swt has protected the Qur'an through man-made systems?

And who told you that they cannot?

Elementary logic. If the unanimous consensus of hadith scholars has always been erroneous, why don't you find this error for me and tell me what it is. Tell me which chain of narration for which hadith has this magical error that has eluded every hadith scholar for over a millenium. Note also that you are not saying that the entire consensus of hadith scholars agreed on one error for one hadith, you are saying that EVERY hadith has an ERROR!!!

And based on perception, back in the day most scientists accepted the "fact" that the Sun revolved around the Earth.

New scientific evidence arises, which is the sole reason why the consensus changes. New evidence never arises in hadith sciences. If there is no new evidence, the consensus will never change.

Quran verse please?

As above - the verse on dhikr.

So now your faith is based on numbers?

Yes, in this case 100%.

You have compeltely ignored my other questions to you - why?

Answer the following questions:
-how does one shorten their prayers when travelling?
-how many rak'ahs in fajr, dhuhr, asr, maghrib and isha?
-what exceptions apply to the criminal punishments in the Qur'an? Can we apply them to children and mentally insane? Can we cut off someone's hand for stealing a grain of salt?
-how much zakat must be paid and how many times?

Please answer and back everything up with Islamic sources.

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Salaam Ahmed,



But you have 3.;D




1.) For me accepting the Quran is a matter of faith.
2.) I believe that the Quran is the central figure around my faith (besides accepting God and his oneness). Therefore everything that I believe as "divine" is stemmed from the teachings of the Quran.
3.) I believe that the Quran IS a hadith becuase it describes itself as a hadith.





Like I said, I believe that accepting the Quran is a matter of faith and that it is the central figure around my faith (besides accepting God and his oneness).



Please don't forget the Quran is the book of Wisdom.

salaam

You didnt prove to me how one can diffrentiate between the Hadiths and the Quran . For all you know the Quran can contain some of the sayings of the Prophet. And by far the same people preserved the Quran that preserved the Hadith. To accept them for the Quran and reject them for Hadith is really self contradictory. Until you accept the Hadith you'll be going around in circles.



Ps- I think you would do well to read this:

http://www.islamicboard.com/depth-islam/22043-legal-status-sunnah-islam.html

 

[Woodrow]

As a newbie I was one of those who thought the hadeeth was unimportant. To me the Qur'an was suffiecient (which it is). However, the more I learned of the Qur'an the more I discovered I did not know it as well as I thought. So, like any sensible person I looked to find how the Qur'an was understood throughout the ages. Then the light bulb, in my poor little bald head, flickered and I realised that there it was, The Hadeeth.

 

[Mawaddah]

^ Which is what any intelligent person would do, unfortunately the Qur'aanis think that they are above such things.

 

[M H Kahn]

The Quran and Hadith Records:
The Quran contains the words of Allah brought by Gabriel to Mohammed (pbuh), who has communicated the same to the mankind. As soon as the messages were communicated to Mohammed (pbuh), he learnt the same by heart, his companions followed suit and even the same were written down, too.This is why there is no coruption in the Quran. As regards Hadith, they passed from mouth to mouth for nearly 200 years after death of the prophet and then different individuals travelled the places, asked people if they knew of any saying of Mohammed (pbuh). Some people said that they knew that the prophet said so and so etc.........; they noted down the narrations and ultimately published in book form.

The Truth about Allah's Words and those of the Prophet:
We must believe that words of Allah cannot be self-contradictory, nor untrue. He has said that some verses in the Quran are allegorical and warned the mankind not to transgress the limit in attempting to know their meanings.
He has asked us to stick to the clear verses for our guidance. Similarly we are told in the Quran that the prophet never said anything untrue.

The Contradictions:
While there is not an iota of corruption in the Quran, there is every possibility that there might be rampant corruption in the Hadith books written by some humans with very good intentions from the hearsays claimed to have passed from the the prophet. We have to obey the prophet who was the ideal for the mankind and the demonstator of how to live in this world and how to worship Allah alone.

But there are many stories in the Hadith Books that contradict the Quran; and in that case if you accept the story of the Hadith Book, you reject the Quran and the result is that you are a disbeliever despite your devotion to all forms of worships, because you ascribe lies to both Allah and His prophet. For example, the Quran unequivocally says that there will be no intercession in the hereafter. Then we have allegorical verses that say that there will be intercession with permission of Allah. But where this intercession takes or will take place? Allah has not made us known the answer; and we are forbidden not to try to know the meanings of such allegorical verses. So we must stop here with the definite knowledge that there will be no intercession in the hereafter.

Now if you find a story in any man-made book that the prophet had said that none will go to paradise in the hereafter without his intercession or similar other stories, what is your duty? If you believe this as Hadith, you ascribe lies to both Allah and His prophet, because the prophet had taught us with the Quran that there will be no intercession in the hereafter. This is the definite truth and anything that contradits this glaring truth must be rejected as lies ascribed to the prophet; or esle you will be a disbeliever for rejecting the Quranic truth.

The Middle Way:
But there are true stories in Hadith Books too. A believer will accept only those stories of the books that do not contrdict the Quran as Hadith, and he must reject the contradicting stories as sheer lies. If you hesitate, you are a disbeliever despite your all worships and devotions; because you must have untainted faith first and only then the worships will work.

So we have to take the middle way accepting Quran in whole and those sayings recorded the man-made books that do not contradict the Quran. Anything that contradicts the Quran must be rejected as lies ascribed to the propohet without considering the greatness of the human who has written the book, as to err is human. But alas ! Most of today's so-called Muslims have resoted to various malpractices relying on the false stories mistakenly ascribed to the prophet. They are the disbelievers and the transgressors.

 

[Ghazi]

People who Reject Hadith will have to answer to allah for rejecting the sayings of the prophet and his sunnah, I put the question to them and ask, how can you call your self followers of the prophet when you reject his sayings.

 

[al-fateh]

there is abundant beautiful hadith out there, but people chose to pick the weak and fabricated ones, just to being doubts in the hreats of others....

 

[M H Kahn]

there is abundant beautiful hadith out there, but people chose to pick the weak and fabricated ones, just to being doubts in the hreats of others....

[PIE]Scholars overtaken by satans spread story-type false sayings in their sermons and books written by them; and almost all such false stories are about sky-high greatness unauthentically (or even to the denial of the Quran) attributed to our prophet, and the result is the institution of prophet-worship alongside the worship of Allah.[/PIE]

 

[x Maz x]

I don't understand this verse. If the Prophet wasn't responsible for any of his words or desires, was he truly human?

Did the Muslims after the death of the Prophet Mohammed follow the hadiths?

The Quran simirarly relates "And he speaks not of his own desire. It is but a revelation to him"

"Assuredly, Allah conferred a great favor upon the believers when He sent among them a messnger from among themselves*. He rehearses unto them His revelations, purifies them and teaches them the Book and wisdom" [Surah Al-Imran 3:164]


* This shows that the blessed Prophet [Pbuh] was merely a human that Allah selected and he was verily the blessed man and the seal of Prophethood

By saying this, Allah is warning mankind that the Prophet [Pbuh] didnt speak for his own selfish desires but only followed Him and gave mankind guidence only from the Holy Quran and they were not his words but Allah's...

"We sent you not but as a mercy for all creatures" [Surah Al-Anbiya 21:107]

He was sent as a guider and mercy to all humankind..

SubhanAllah..[Glory be to Allah]...The hadith and Sunnah and the Quran all compliment eachother, none contradicts each another...The Quran is the word to mankind and the Prophet [Pbuh] is the man who showed us to enact these requirements [i.e. the performance of Salah]...The beleivers must believe that the words/utterances/occurances of the blessed Prophet [Pbuh] respresent the will of Allah therefore we must follow and obey them in every aspect of life...
The Prophet also said in his farewell address to follow the Quran and Sunnah and you shall be thr right guided people...
It honestly came out abit of a shock when reading this but Alhamdilullah i acknowledged the sheer ignorance in some of the users who blindly disregard the Sunnah...Allah guide them to the true path and make them repent and see the light!..
Hope that answers the questions young lass Peace be with you x

 

[al-fateh]

result is the institution of prophet-worship alongside the worship of Allah.

can you prove this????

accusing muslims of worshipping Muhammad?

 

[al-fateh]

there is beautiful hadith out there, and i would like to share some of it with some people on this forum. just to show that the hadith is not merely a saying said. we are not saying that ALL hadith is corresponding to the prophet, we know some of it is fabricated, we have already been thru this, but why do people wanna take those sayings and accuse the prophet of such a saying that contradicts the sound mind and so on.

a set of beautiful hadith is here for the pleasure of those who love the hadith. you cannot love the prophet if you dont know the hadith, that why those who dont, call him a MERE HUMAN, just anyone.......


http://www.myislamweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4154

 

[x Maz x]

By saying 'mere human'...In other words he was selected by Allah out of the human kind and thus meaning he wasnt an angel or whatever...Verily he was the best of creation and a mercy to all mankind...
Hadith is ranked in its autinicity and reliability so therefore when making a final judgment regarding a topic one must look at a collection of ahadeeth and base their final verdict upon that InshAllah
Peace and hope that clarifies that x

 

[al-fateh]

thanks for the clarification

 

[M H Kahn]

People who Reject Hadith will have to answer to allah for rejecting the sayings of the prophet and his sunnah, I put the question to them and ask, how can you call your self followers of the prophet when you reject his sayings.

If Hadiths are the sayings of Mohammed (pbuh), then there can be no class in them as he never told anything untrue. So, rejecting the Hadiths is like rejecting the Quranic ordainment " to obey the prophet". But you must reject any writing that contradicts the Quran as false stories that have stealthily made place in books of Hadith. Astonishingly almost all these false stories have been invented to institute prophet worship in Islam. The result is that like the worship of three entities in Christianity, Muslims have today started worshipping two entities.

 

[Ghazi]

If Hadiths are the sayings of Mohammed (pbuh), then there can be no class in them as he never told anything untrue. So, rejecting the Hadiths is like rejecting the Quranic ordainment " to obey the prophet". But you must reject any writing that contradicts the Quran as false stories that have stealthily made place in books of Hadith. Astonishingly almost all these false stories have been invented to institute prophet worship in Islam. The result is that like the worship of three entities in Christianity, Muslims have today started worshipping two entities.

I don't worship to entities, I only worship allah, the prophet is his slave just like every other jinn and man.

 

[al-fateh]

this claim about worshipping Muhammad is out of its place.

how can someone believe that there is no God except Allah and Muhammad as his messanger, worship Muhammad?????????

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

MH Kahn,

Your myth that hadith were only recorded 200 years after the Prophet pbuh is debunked here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/212874-post5.html
Please read instead of repeating the same claims that have been refuted.

 

[M H Kahn]

MH Kahn,

Your myth that hadith were only recorded 200 years after the Prophet pbuh is debunked here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/212874-post5.html
Please read instead of repeating the same claims that have been refuted.

A Muslim mus believe that anything that contradicts the Quran is not Hadith.

 

[x Maz x]

Akhi Ansar Al'-Adal, Is there any point of allowing this thread to remain open? The issue has been addressed in a civilised manner Alhamdilullah and the argument implying hadeeth are fake has been debunked so therefore I think to ensure this doesnt reel out of control you should close this thread...InshAllah those disregarding the hadeeth unveiling a level of ignorance within themselves will open their eyes and see whats haaq...Peace and blessings be upon you all x

 

[al-fateh]

MH Kahn,

Your myth that hadith were only recorded 200 years after the Prophet pbuh is debunked here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/212874-post5.html
Please read instead of repeating the same claims that have been refuted.

masha'allah great post

mind if i borrow it??