Debate: Why do some people completely reject hadith?

[Curaezipirid]

I guess that a part of the full issue is about whether we are enabling acceptance of those whom dispute any ahadith that is not Qur'an without the Ummah. We might know that it is better for a person to be able to manifest belief in Qur'an than in no truth; but surely we must question seriously why any person could want to refute ahadith? Surely if people try to refute other words Mohammed spoke and other prophesy He made, Allah's Peace and Blessings with Him, the they must accept also that they did refute Qur'an thereby.

Each to their own, in Iman and the Ummah I guess.

wasalam

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Khair. Looks like this debate is over. The Ahadith rejectors have run away again. Hadith-rejectors love making wild claims and then running when people take them up on them.

 

[lolwatever]

Khair. Looks like this debate is over. The Ahadith rejectors have run away again. Hadith-rejectors love making wild claims and then running when people take them up on them.

so tru :X... btw ameen... i'm bak............ u can pm me now coz my inbox is cleared

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Khair. Looks like this debate is over.

i was shocked that it ever started :uuh:

 

[Musalmaan]

just an answer to this short Question

"Why do some people completely reject hadith?"

one of the reason is that they quit the way of learning deen as the way of pious predeccossors. the sahabah learn the deen from prophet Muhammad Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam,
then Tabein (2nd generation) learn it from Sahabah, and so the way continues to the next generation. tabaein did not take Quran and book of hadith from the sahabah and said that Quran and hadith is enough for us, we learn it directly through it. nah, but they use to sit in thier company for long years, and understand the deen of Allah through them (whom Allah blessed them with sound understanding of deen -> fiqh the real interpretaion of Quran and Hadith).

this is the way to learn the deen of Allah,those who will follow this way will insha'Allah be guided to the right path, and those who'll leave this way, will destroy themselves.


may Allah guide us all.

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

brothers and sisters.

Salaam x Maz x,




See this another thing about hadiths that really urks me. Alot of times those who are into hadith are very in love with the Messenger a whole lot. They can quote the hadiths like crazy, but can't quote the Quran like crazy aswell. But even more, their love for the MEssenger is quite evident in the way that they speak.

You put a blessing behind the Prophet's name, but you do not put anytype of blessing when you mention God.

Seriously, values seem to be shifted.

well excuse me, but Allah Himself states: Surely Allah and His angels bless the Prophet, O you who believe! call for (divine) blessings on him and salute him with a (becoming salutation).
33:56

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

brothers and sister.
maybe im abit late in my opinion but here goes:
maybe you should look at the time that the collectors of ahadith actulally collected them.
another thing, maybe you should look at the actual clarification of ahadith, how the scholars went to so much effot of preserve it. ill suggest you read: "an introduction to the science of hadith." by dr. Suhaib Hasan.

i myself havnt read it, but have flipped through it. subhanallah, the effort is...amazzing. please do. this is a serious issue.


one other thing. when you read, say scientific books, about the structure of water, or even a history book, not necessarily islamic, do you believe them. if yes, than why do you not believe that people would preserve the sayings and or actions of the prophet (sallalahu alehi wa salam).

get my drift??

 

[justahumane]

One question regarding hadith.

Hadith, as it is said, came in form of scripures 200 years after the death of the holy prophet. What actually was the source for muslims, during those 200 yrs, for understanding Sunnah?

Thanks

 

[Mohsin]

One question regarding hadith.

Hadith, as it is said, came in form of scripures 200 years after the death of the holy prophet. What actually was the source for muslims, during those 200 yrs, for understanding Sunnah?

Thanks

Salam

I think its been proven from this thread that it is not the case that hadith were made into scriptures after 200 years. See here where it is proved even before compilations such as sahih Bukhari, there existed hadith compilations

 

[hakkerz]

Salam, just a reply to the first comment made in this thread

" either way those who do not believe in hadith are KAFAR! ".

I honestly am not too bothered by the reasoning, muslim, 3alim (knowledgable person) or not, you have pretty much no right to kafir somebody, for something which doesnt agree with your way of thinking. I do agree with hadiths, but why all the hate? Say that in your eyes you dont agree with it, by denouncing them as a kafir is hardly going to help them reach the 'right' conclusion as you see it, and secondly, if Allah wanted us to judge people, then on of the names of Alah wouldnt be 'Al haseeb' : The Reckoner, and judgement day would have no point.

Either way, thats my opinion, and this whole issue of hadith is such a long one, it seems the whole basis of it was to prove a point as apposed to seek knowledge. lol..the conclusion was pretty much made before the arguement and reasons were set out.

Take care...

...Asking your Duaas.

Peace.

 

[Mohsin]

Salam, just a reply to the first comment made in this thread

" either way those who do not believe in hadith are KAFAR! ".

I honestly am not too bothered by the reasoning, muslim, 3alim (knowledgable person) or not, you have pretty much no right to kafir somebody, for something which doesnt agree with your way of thinking. I do agree with hadiths, but why all the hate? Say that in your eyes you dont agree with it, by denouncing them as a kafir is hardly going to help them reach the 'right' conclusion as you see it, and secondly, if Allah wanted us to judge people, then on of the names of Alah wouldnt be 'Al haseeb' : The Reckoner, and judgement day would have no point.

Either way, thats my opinion, and this whole issue of hadith is such a long one, it seems the whole basis of it was to prove a point as apposed to seek knowledge. lol..the conclusion was pretty much made before the arguement and reasons were set out.

Take care...

...Asking your Duaas.

Peace.

Brother, I think the whole reason scholars say hadith-rejectors are non-muslims are because they deny or delibarately disobey verses of the Qur'an which tell us to obey the Prophet PBUH. If one was to delibarately reject the sayings of the prophet pbuh, surely he is rejecting the will of Allah. If you were a companion at the time of the prophet PBUH would you even think of rejecting him? So what difference does it make now that he is not here??

 

[SirZubair]

As for the [site link removed] site, it is from the so-called "submitters" group, personally I would stay away from it. All scholars agree they are outside the fold of Islam.

 

[Mohsin]

As for the [link removed] site, it is from the so-called "submitters" group, personally I would stay away from it. All scholars agree they are outside the fold of Islam.

My friends met a quranite submitter or whatever they call themselves a few years ago. He's very much different to the ones on this thread, he has some very strange beliefs. They only pray 3 times a day, and by praying, they don't do salah as we do with ruku sajdah etc but they apprently just sit and meditate, not zikr, just meditation. I think there are different spectrums to this deviant sect

 

[InToTheRain]

My friends met a quranite submitter or whatever they call themselves a few years ago. He's very much different to the ones on this thread, he has some very strange beliefs. They pray 5 times a day, and by praying, they don't do salah as we do with ruku sajdah etc but they apprently just sit and meditate, not zikr, just meditation. I think there are different spectrums to this deviant sect

Thats Sufism akhi

 

[Mohsin]

Thats Sufism akhi

No i think you should re-read my post, these people i was referring to are people who reject hadith completely and read quran only. wherever in the quran it says u have to pray the person said it means just meditating. sufism is different, they still perform salah

 

[hakkerz]

Brother, I think the whole reason scholars say hadith-rejectors are non-muslims are because they deny or delibarately disobey verses of the Qur'an which tell us to obey the Prophet PBUH. If one was to delibarately reject the sayings of the prophet pbuh, surely he is rejecting the will of Allah. If you were a companion at the time of the prophet PBUH would you even think of rejecting him? So what difference does it make now that he is not here??

Woow..Akhi, huge huge difference. If i was to take your example of being at the time of the prophet, there was no such thing as hadiths, because the first hadith book was written nearly 250 years after the prophets (Pbuh) death. Assuming u dont count those that were burnt directly after his death. Secondly, rejecting what the hadiths, does not mean you reject what the prophet says. Youve drawn the two as though they are one thing. The Quran tells us, 'ati3 al rasool' = and obey the prophet, firstly that was meant to apply to those at the time of the prophet (look at the context in which it was), secondly, the principle of rejecting hadiths may not be to disobey or 'deilberatly reject' what the prophet said, but rather, how about if you believe that the hadiths are not right. For example. Bukhari says, i leave you my Sunnah (hadiths) and the Quran. Muslim and Tirmithee narrate a different version. Which do i follow? And does accepting hadiths mean that i must accept all the hadiths, (taking into account that the VAST VAST majority of the hadiths that are narrated are NOT authenticated (sahihs), and only a small percentage, a couple of thousand are said to be authentic)

I do believe in hadiths, dont get me wrong, and i read them and learn them, and learn from them, but i think to take your idea/belief, apply it upon the rest of the muslim nation, when clearly there are differences in opinion is wrong...Again, just an opinion.

Asking your Duaas...

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Woow..Akhi, huge huge difference. If i was to take your example of being at the time of the prophet, there was no such thing as hadiths, because the first hadith book was written nearly 250 years after the prophets (Pbuh) death.

Major misconception. Ahadith were written down at the time of the Prophet and Sahih Bukhari was NOT the first book of Hadith! There were over 15 written in the first century alone and about 40 in the second! See this link, look under Misconception #1:

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_det.php?artical_id=434&section=indepth&subsection=Hadeeth

Assuming u dont count those that were burnt directly after his death.

Thats news to me. What was burned after his death?! The Sahaba burned the words of the Messenger?

Secondly, rejecting what the hadiths, does not mean you reject what the prophet says. Youve drawn the two as though they are one thing.

It equates when one rejects the Ahadith becuase he is rejecting what the Prophet said that was not part of the Quran. The question here is not about rejecting then, it would be about authencity. By rejecting Sahih Bukhari and the other Ahadith that are regarded as Sahih equates to rejecting Ahadith, even rejecting one when it was been authenticated.

The Quran tells us, 'ati3 al rasool' = and obey the prophet, firstly that was meant to apply to those at the time of the prophet (look at the context in which it was),

Then the Quran too was only for those at the time of the Prophet and not for us! Allah equates obeying him with obeying the Messenger! Therefore, the Ahadith contain the instructions of the Messenger that are not in the Quran, how to pray and other details of the religion, to reject Ahadith, one cannot follow Islam in the least. That is why by the consensus of the Ummah, the Ahadith rejectors are outside the fold of Islam, ie not muslims.

secondly, the principle of rejecting hadiths may not be to disobey or 'deilberatly reject' what the prophet said, but rather, how about if you believe that the hadiths are not right.

That does not happen to anyone except a person that is the most ignorant in the science of Ahadith and Usul ul Fiqh. That is the problem with Ahadith rejectors, they base their opinions on their ignorance. And if you do not know, why are there scholors? What is stopping you from going to them and asking?!

For example. Bukhari says, i leave you my Sunnah (hadiths) and the Quran. Muslim and Tirmithee narrate a different version. Which do i follow?

But they do not contradict.

And does accepting hadiths mean that i must accept all the hadiths, (taking into account that the VAST VAST majority of the hadiths that are narrated are NOT authenticated (sahihs), and only a small percentage, a couple of thousand are said to be authentic)

It is obliagtory on a muslim to believe in the Ahadith because that is entailed if one believes in the Quran. It is obligatory to follow those that are classified as Sahih, ie. the ones in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim.

I do believe in hadiths, dont get me wrong, and i read them and learn them, and learn from them, but i think to take your idea/belief, apply it upon the rest of the muslim nation, when clearly there are differences in opinion is wrong...Again, just an opinion.
Asking your Duaas...

There are no differences of opinion regarding the Ahadith among the scholors. It is only the laymen that read a hadith and dont understand and end up rejecting it because of their ignorance and because they refuse to ask those that know.

 

[Umar001]

Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulah,

Hi, brother Hakkerz, I would just like to say a couple of things, insha'Allah.
Hope all is well.
If I have misunderstood anything please be patient with me and forgive my shortcoming inshaAllah.

if Allah wanted us to judge people, then on of the names of Alah wouldnt be 'Al haseeb' : The Reckoner, and judgement day would have no point.

I disagree, I don't think we should be quick to call people kafir, or anything, neither do I think that 'us' as in common people should go round labelling people kafir, but I dont think what you stated about not being a 'judge' because Allah has that name, well Allah has the name Al.... The... we cannot be THE Judge, for example, it is like saying, we canot be merciful because Allah is Al Rahman, no, we cannot be THE Most Mericful, but we should show Mercy.

I have a little book, entitled "The Obligation of Action Upon the Sunnah of the Messenger And the Unbelief of Those Who Reject it" By Abdul Azeez Ibn Abdillah Ibn Baz. Now with all due respect brother, maybe the scholars know some knowledge we don't with regards to this matter? For surely, not all as some claim are following desires.

Woow..Akhi, huge huge difference. If i was to take your example of being at the time of the prophet, there was no such thing as hadiths, because the first hadith book was written nearly 250 years after the prophets (Pbuh) death. Assuming u dont count those that were burnt directly after his death. Secondly, rejecting what the hadiths, does not mean you reject what the prophet says. Youve drawn the two as though they are one thing. The Quran tells us, 'ati3 al rasool' = and obey the prophet, firstly that was meant to apply to those at the time of the prophet (look at the context in which it was), secondly, the principle of rejecting hadiths may not be to disobey or 'deilberatly reject' what the prophet said, but rather, how about if you believe that the hadiths are not right. For example. Bukhari says, i leave you my Sunnah (hadiths) and the Quran. Muslim and Tirmithee narrate a different version. Which do i follow? And does accepting hadiths mean that i must accept all the hadiths, (taking into account that the VAST VAST majority of the hadiths that are narrated are NOT authenticated (sahihs), and only a small percentage, a couple of thousand are said to be authentic)

I do believe in hadiths, dont get me wrong, and i read them and learn them, and learn from them, but i think to take your idea/belief, apply it upon the rest of the muslim nation, when clearly there are differences in opinion is wrong...Again, just an opinion.

Asking your Duaas...

I'm very happy to hear that you do believe in the authentic ahadeth, and I agree that someone who rejects a hadith because they think it's fabricated is not rejecting the Prophet peace be upon him, as such.

I have a question though, you said the first hadeeth book was written after approx of 200 years, what hold you to believe that? What book was that?

In an article named "Are There Any Early Hadiths?" the writer states:

The Sahifa Of Hammam bin Munabbih: This is perhaps one of the earliest known hadith collections. Hammam bin Munabbih was a student of Abu Hurrairah and well-known among the scholars of the hadith to be trustworthy.

And

which comprises 138 hadith and is believed to have been written around the mid-first AH/seventh century.

Some ask why don't we have such books now, and some reply that the reason is that, because these books were small, holding only low hundrends of hadeeth, later the compilers absorbed these smaller books into their Big compilations, such as Sahih Bukhari, and so forth, so there was no need to hold loads of little books, but rather have a big book which held them all and some additional ones. This is why:

We can see that of the 138 narrations in the Sahifa, 98 of them are faithfully witnessed in the later collections of al-Bukhari and Muslim, both through narrations of Abu Hurrairah and witnessing narrations from other Companions.

Anyhow, I think the above has been asnwered many times before, by people much more knowledgeable than me on this board, if you want to hear talks on Ahadeth maybe you could listen to Yasir Qadhi, whom's talks I persnolly love and have learnt basic science of Hadith.

Assalamu Aleykum

Oh Article can be found 'Are There Any Early hadith?'

 

[seeker_of_ilm]

I agree, everyone should listen to Yasir Qadhis talk, on Usul al Hadith:

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6

 

[hakkerz]

Wow...i jst came back to see all your replies. Appologies for my misconceptions and my ignorance, as you like to put it. Im willing to swallow my pride, but again, i really think that what IsaAbdullah and Ahmed said just highlights the intolerance of our Muslim Ummah. I accept a lot of what you said, and dont get me wrong, im not saying this out of hate or any such feeling, however simply having a difference of opinion does NOT show ignorance!?

""There are no differences of opinion regarding the Ahadith among the scholors. It is only the laymen that read a hadith and dont understand and end up rejecting it because of their ignorance and because they refuse to ask those that know.""

I think we end up treating non-muslims better than our own muslim brothers. Want a prophetic saying? Al-deen al mu3amalah. Religion is how you treat people/mannerism. Imagine, just for one moment, that you went to a non-muslim and told him that what he believed was due to his ignorance and because they dont understand, very polite indeed. Islam in essence isnt about prayer,fasting,hadiths,the quran, etc. the whole of Islam is to try and establish the perfect society, with the perfect akhlaq. The above are just means to getting to them, for e.g in the Quran it says, Prayer prevents al fahshaa wal munkar, (performing evil and sinful acts, or to that meaning). Im not a scholar, and i asked to seek knowledge and expressed an opinion, not to show others ignorance or lack of 'understanding'.

Im all to hearing other peoples opinions, but i also respect them.

Ultimately, there are many scholars, and they vary in opinion greatly, (and im talking within the same 'sect', if u want to call it that), if one does not share such an opinion as yours, is he deemed ignorant?

Not that i am saying anybody is, but we are not immune from making mistakes, or misunderstanding, or simply not knowing.

One point regarding what you were saying though

"It is obligatory to follow those that are classified as Sahih, ie. the ones in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim."

Well, i appologise if this is an ignorant question, enlighten me, but if there were hundreds of thousands of hadiths, and only a few thousand are seen as sahih by Bukhari and Muslim. Is it not possible that they made a mistake? Possibly? or were they perfect/infallible? Its a serious question, coz i have a friend who always asks me that, and i tell him whilst they are not perfect,the testing carried out was to such a high level, that the liklihood for error is near impossible, yet, he says there is still room for error? He also says that assuming only a small % well 'sahih', who fabricated all the other hadiths?

If your wondering why im slightly annoyed, its because i think challenging a certain way of thinking, is a way of increasing in your belief. Alot of what he says only makes me more certain i am on the right path, yet i ask a question that questions the same beliefs i have, and all of a sudden like some outcast.

I will be the first to appologise for my ignorance and lack of understanding, and im sure i am not as knowledgable as you are. I intend no offence, nor to patronise you, it is an attempt to seek knowledge and increase in Iman...

A persian scholar says, a very long time ago, when there were still very few muslims in the 'West':

I went to the West and i saw Islam, but i saw no Muslims. And i went to the East, and i saw Muslims, but saw no Islam...

Asking your pious Duaas and Supplications...

Ahmad