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Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?
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snakelegs
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i assume the zabur of david has also been lost, yes?
...only the parts that don't agree with what is already accepted...
Yep, they're all lost. the Suhuf, Zabur, Tawrat, Injil.... You really can't trust those Jews with anything right?
Nevermind that the Qu'ran in it's current form was compiled after the death of Mohammad, and yes there were slightly different versions in the beginning.
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Hi everyone,
I think the main problem is to know what Jesus actually did say before stating whether he said x.y.z.
The term would be speaking about what was given to Jesus, not neccesarily what Mark/Matthew/Luke/John say was given to Jesus. So for example snake, the Qur'an is what was given to Muhammad, but this, i.e. Qur'an, has been transmitted by all Muslims down throughout the ages, so, if we look at a book by a companion of Muhammad, the companion may say 'x.y.z and this is proved in the Qur'an....' now, the portion of Qur'anic quote is what the Qur'an is, the rest is different. Similarly, the Gospels have something like that, you have Jesus speaking, and then you have the authors writing. So for example:
From Mark 7, what you note here is, Jesus' apparent speech, 'Are you so dull..' etc, then the author telling the story, i.e. 'after he had..' and then the author's interpretation 'In saying this , JEsus declared..'.
What may have been part of the Injeel is the direct speech/action (derived from a comman in the injeel) of Jesus. So only that would be up for scrutanisation. Now, if you look at some scholar's of the Bible's writings, they will tell you there were three stages, stage I: The actions and words of the real Jesus. Stage II: The oral traditions from such actions, so these actions were transmitted, sometimes correctly sometimes not so. Stage III: The taking of the tradition and shaping it to form a gospel. In trying to find the real actions/sayings of Jesus one has to try work back.
What I would say is that there may be some stage I stuff in the Gospels, but there are also other stages.
Pretty much that sister, some parts of Jesus' message may have been written or may not, some may have been written but re-interpreted in a different way, God knows best.
As Salam Alaykum,
How do you know that akhi?
Well maybe not all, I mean if you understand the complexity behind the compilation of the text you'll appriciate the difficulty in knowing what is what.
Well although you seem to have a different view on how I understand the textual history of the Qur'an to have been. The Qur'an stands not only on texual witness, rather, one also should look at the method of memorising, the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, is a really smart man for inspiring so many of his followers, through rewards, to memorise the whole qur'an, to 'come up' with making them recite it 5 times a day at least, and make the teachers of the Qur'an the best, I mean, if you ask me that's a great way to go in making sure a message isn't lost.
On top of that, one only has to note the social differences.
And God knows best.
I think the main problem is to know what Jesus actually did say before stating whether he said x.y.z.
The term would be speaking about what was given to Jesus, not neccesarily what Mark/Matthew/Luke/John say was given to Jesus. So for example snake, the Qur'an is what was given to Muhammad, but this, i.e. Qur'an, has been transmitted by all Muslims down throughout the ages, so, if we look at a book by a companion of Muhammad, the companion may say 'x.y.z and this is proved in the Qur'an....' now, the portion of Qur'anic quote is what the Qur'an is, the rest is different. Similarly, the Gospels have something like that, you have Jesus speaking, and then you have the authors writing. So for example:
17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")
From Mark 7, what you note here is, Jesus' apparent speech, 'Are you so dull..' etc, then the author telling the story, i.e. 'after he had..' and then the author's interpretation 'In saying this , JEsus declared..'.
What may have been part of the Injeel is the direct speech/action (derived from a comman in the injeel) of Jesus. So only that would be up for scrutanisation. Now, if you look at some scholar's of the Bible's writings, they will tell you there were three stages, stage I: The actions and words of the real Jesus. Stage II: The oral traditions from such actions, so these actions were transmitted, sometimes correctly sometimes not so. Stage III: The taking of the tradition and shaping it to form a gospel. In trying to find the real actions/sayings of Jesus one has to try work back.
What I would say is that there may be some stage I stuff in the Gospels, but there are also other stages.
Pretty much that sister, some parts of Jesus' message may have been written or may not, some may have been written but re-interpreted in a different way, God knows best.
As Salam Alaykum,
How do you know that akhi?
Well maybe not all, I mean if you understand the complexity behind the compilation of the text you'll appriciate the difficulty in knowing what is what.
Well although you seem to have a different view on how I understand the textual history of the Qur'an to have been. The Qur'an stands not only on texual witness, rather, one also should look at the method of memorising, the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, is a really smart man for inspiring so many of his followers, through rewards, to memorise the whole qur'an, to 'come up' with making them recite it 5 times a day at least, and make the teachers of the Qur'an the best, I mean, if you ask me that's a great way to go in making sure a message isn't lost.
On top of that, one only has to note the social differences.
And God knows best.
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I am not sure.. I have read some Psalms when I went to catholic school, and some of them were very sexual, almost bordering upon pornographic.. I don't believe that, that is the style of divinity... but some were ok.. so I am not sure, I am the wrong person to come to on this particular subject matter. Perhaps one of our brothers/sisters who have converted can shed better light?
peace
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Br Ansar Al'Adl has touched upon the subject of the collection and compilation of the Quran http://www.islamicboard.com/refutat...tered-yaa-ayyuhaal-kafiroon-6.html#post787918
as to leave very little room for speculations on behalf of atheists. unless of course they want to dispense out opinions rather than facts-- which is in fact what we have become accustomed to here...
Be that as it may, I also recommend this book
ISBN: 1872531652
Author: Muhammad Mustafa al-Azami
Publisher: UK Islamic Academy (2003)
Pages: 376 Binding: Paperback
as to leave very little room for speculations on behalf of atheists. unless of course they want to dispense out opinions rather than facts-- which is in fact what we have become accustomed to here...
Be that as it may, I also recommend this book
ISBN: 1872531652
Author: Muhammad Mustafa al-Azami
Publisher: UK Islamic Academy (2003)
Pages: 376 Binding: Paperback
The Revised Standard Version, Illustrated, says in the back, where it lists the books of the Bible, under authorship for Psalms:
Principally David, though there are other writers.
Under settering:
The 150 Psalms were col-lected into a hymnal for use in the Second Temple. Likely written over a span of 1,000 years or more.
EDIT: Yes, that book is pretty nice, may Allah reward the brother, it also contains a small section in the back focusing on OT and NT. Though obviously not as detailed as the main part.
Principally David, though there are other writers.
Under settering:
The 150 Psalms were col-lected into a hymnal for use in the Second Temple. Likely written over a span of 1,000 years or more.
EDIT: Yes, that book is pretty nice, may Allah reward the brother, it also contains a small section in the back focusing on OT and NT. Though obviously not as detailed as the main part.
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,
here's the problem with claims that "the Qu'ran in it's current form was compiled after the death of Mohammad[pbuh]", and it's a fundamental one, are you ready for it?
AS LONG AS THE Messenger of Allah[Salla Allahu Alayhe Wa Salaam] WAS ALIVE, REVELATION WAS COMING DOWN! YOU COULDN'T COMPLETE IT IN WRITING UNTIL IT WAS DONE BEING REVEALED!!!!!!!
simple, eh?
if you were writing a biography of someone who was alive, it would be out of date the second that you finished it. it would need to be "revised" every so often. the same holds true with " there were slightly different versions in the beginning", OF COURSE THERE WOULD BE! whatever "version" someone had would be "outdated" as soon as the next revelation!
again, simple, eh?
if you still don't comprehend, just ask away!
Dr.Trax
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Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,
here's the problem with claims that "the Qu'ran in it's current form was compiled after the death of Mohammad[pbuh]", and it's a fundamental one, are you ready for it?
AS LONG AS THE Messenger of Allah[Salla Allahu Alayhe Wa Salaam] WAS ALIVE, REVELATION WAS COMING DOWN! YOU COULDN'T COMPLETE IT IN WRITING UNTIL IT WAS DONE BEING REVEALED!!!!!!!
simple, eh?
if you were writing a biography of someone who was alive, it would be out of date the second that you finished it. it would need to be "revised" every so often. the same holds true with " there were slightly different versions in the beginning", OF COURSE THERE WOULD BE! whatever "version" someone had would be "outdated" as soon as the next revelation!
again, simple, eh?
if you still don't comprehend, just ask away!
THE BEST AND GREATEST ANSWER I've EVER SEEN!
Jazakallahkhair brother!
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Surely god knew the precise moment when Muhammad would die and would leave enough time for him to finalize the message, compile it, have it read out to him in it's totality for it's approval. Then maybe he would have a few more days just to make sure enough copies were made.
The Qu'ran is not a biography of the Muhammad, any more than it is a biography of Noah.
The Qu'ran is taken to be a revelation to all mankind. Truly, there are ethical problems that mankind faces today that we do not have a prescription for in the holy book. Do you think it is out of date?
So you mean to say that the prophet's lifetime was not enough to reveal everything, or that god could not have forseen his death? So either muhammad's life was long enough simply for the revelation (if you assume it was complete) and not it's propogation, or long enough only for the propogation of a core message and it was possible that there would be further revelations.
This is what you seem to be saying.
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Allah (swt) knows all... His message is complete in the Quran, therefore he did leave enough time to finalize his message.. This is why the final prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had those who followed him, just as Jesus (pbuh) had those who followed him and finalized his message and teachings after he was crucified, according to Christian belief.
The Sunnah is the biography of the prophet Muhammad (pbuh), the Quran is the message of Allah (swt)
Please elaborate on the ethical problems that the Quran does not have an answer for... I can already tell you before you state them, that more than likely you will have a more liberal point of view, since you are a self proclaimed atheist. Where you may think something is backwards or to strict, I will tell you that you and I, and much of the world have veered away from what is good to better suit our needs, rather than Allahs.
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Ehh, I hope you mean in terms of the Christian belief?
The Qur'an may have been written in totality, I think it was off the top of my head, but what is reffered to normally is the Qur'an being compiled into a book.
So yes, people were asked to write by the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, but it was only after his demise which the Qur'an was put inbetween covers, if i am not mistaken.
And Allah knows best.
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Jesus delivered teachings, but as a prophet would those teachings be inspired by God or the word of God.
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Huh? He said Jesus was crucified, so i was making sure he meant in terms of the Christian belief.
correcto-mundo... sorry about that, should have been more clear
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Okie dokie 
Just checkin.
Just checkin.