Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

[جوري]

was that your God in Narnia? likened unto an animal? or the one at wal-mart next to bratz dolls? or the one in the national gallery bought from Russia for 8 million?

want to be given a break? you should give the world a break first from your fairy tales..

cheers

 

[tetsujin]

since both islam and christianity claim to be the "one true religion" - doesn't this mean that in order for your religion to be right, the other must be wrong?
i think so - and if so, there is an inherent problem here.

Well not exactly, deep down inside. If a muslim doesn't believe there was ever a one true Christianity, or a one true Judaism, regardless of their current states, then you have some issues with Islam as well.

The Quraysh felt that they had been left out for a while because they knew they hadn't received a divine revelation while the jews and christians had.

It is quite possible to be a muslim and believe that one of the Christian sects is also correct (but incomplete) and one of the Jewish sects is also correct (but incomplete). The problem lies in the fact that the other faiths must also recognize the prophet mohammad to complete their own faiths.

There is also a Fourth book, or religion that is never talked about.

If you claim to be the chosen people, or if you claim to have been visited by god himself, or if you claim to be the final revelation then you're going to have these problems.

What need for another revelation if god himself came down here to sort this out? No?

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

since both islam and christianity claim to be the "one true religion" - doesn't this mean that in order for your religion to be right, the other must be wrong?
i think so - and if so, there is an inherent problem here.

Well one is purely monotheistic and the other is blatant polytheism and one's scripture is pure and unaltered whereas the other has about as many versions of it's scripture as you can care to count...I think the truth stands out clearly here?

 

[جوري]

Please refrain from speaking on behalf of islam/Muslims, not only are you ignorant of theology but also of history....

Your last sentence there, does remind me of a verse from the Quran-- I suppose kaffirs have always shared the same psychology, even thousands of years ago.. amazing thing this human condition... for God to show in the cloud with the angels, it would be a done deal, don't you think? what is the point then of being tried on earth? (everything on earth is already very splendid, must it also be super natural)?

2: 210

هَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلاَّ أَن يَأْتِيَهُمُ اللّهُ فِي ظُلَلٍ مِّنَ الْغَمَامِ وَالْمَلآئِكَةُ وَقُضِيَ الأَمْرُ وَإِلَى اللّهِ تُرْجَعُ الأمُورُ {210}​

Are these people* waiting, perchance, for God to reveal Himself unto them in the shadows of the clouds, together with the angels - although [by then] all will have been decided, and unto God all things will have been brought back?**



* Lit., "they"-obviously referring to the people addressed in the preceding two verses.



** I.e., it will be too late for repentance. All commentators agree in that the "decision" relates to the unequivocal manifestation of God's will on the Day of Judgment, which is alluded to in the words, "when unto God all things will have been brought back". Since, in the next verse, the children of Israel are addressed, it is possible that this rhetorical question is connected with their refusal, in the time of Moses, to believe in the divine message unless they "see God face to face" (cf. 2 : 55).

 

[snakelegs]

Well not exactly, deep down inside. If a muslim doesn't believe there was ever a one true Christianity, or a one true Judaism, regardless of their current states, then you have some issues with Islam as well.

The Quraysh felt that they had been left out for a while because they knew they hadn't received a divine revelation while the jews and christians had.

It is quite possible to be a muslim and believe that one of the Christian sects is also correct (but incomplete) and one of the Jewish sects is also correct (but incomplete). The problem lies in the fact that the other faiths must also recognize the prophet mohammad to complete their own faiths.

There is also a Fourth book, or religion that is never talked about.

If you claim to be the chosen people, or if you claim to have been visited by god himself, or if you claim to be the final revelation then you're going to have these problems.

What need for another revelation if god himself came down here to sort this out? No?

ok, i bite - what's the 4th book? (please don't say the book of mormon! ;D
as for the rest so yes, there are inherent problems here.
but why can't everyone focus on their own religion and concentrate on living it (certainly not an easy path) and nevermind the others? i guess christians and muslims cannot because both proselytize.
when you have 2 religions who both claim a monopoly on god and both believe in proselytizing, major problems are inevitible sooner or later.

 

[snakelegs]

Well one is purely monotheistic and the other is blatant polytheism and one's scripture is pure and unaltered whereas the other has about as many versions of it's scripture as you can care to count...I think the truth stands out clearly here?

i am inclined to agree with you - at least the first part of your statement. but i'm an agnostic, so ultimately i think these things are not knowable.
personally, i believe in the oneness of god, but i have a hard time believing that any religion has a monopoly on god. i think god is beyond religion.

 

[tetsujin]

ok, i bite - what's the 4th book? (please don't say the book of mormon! ;D
as for the rest so yes, there are inherent problems here.
but why can't everyone focus on their own religion and concentrate on living it (certainly not an easy path) and nevermind the others? i guess christians and muslims cannot because both proselytize.
when you have 2 religions who both claim a monopoly on god and both believe in proselytizing, major problems are inevitible sooner or later.

Not quite, you have the Tawrat, Zabur and Injil, or the Torah, Book of Psalms and the 4 Gospels.

I can't imagine why they're not divided as such in common discourse.

 

[snakelegs]

Not quite, you have the Tawrat, Zabur and Injil, or the Torah, Book of Psalms and the 4 Gospels.

I can't imagine why they're not divided as such in common discourse.

yeah, i tend to forget that the zabur is regarded as a separate book in islam. is the injil only the 4 gospels?

 

[جوري]

Injeel is none of the current four gospels, some contend that the original injeel was either written by the only disciple who actually hung around Jesus 'barnabas' .. some think it is a fake, whatever the case, we don't actually know who luke/mark/mat etc actually are, thus their books are actually very questionable according to Islam.. the original Injeel should be free from error as it is divinly inspired..(clearely not the case with any of the versions or the re-defined versions of what is now widely accepted)

peace

 

[snakelegs]

Injeel is none of the current four gospels, some contend that the original injeel was either written by the only disciple who actually hung around Jesus 'barnabas' .. some think it is a fake, whatever the case, we don't actually know who luke/mark/mat etc actually are, thus their books are actually very questionable according to Islam.. the original Injeel should be free from error as it is divinly inspired..(clearely not the case with any of the versions or the re-defined versions of what is now widely accepted)

peace

i know that the present 4 gospels are not considered the original. but the term injil refers to them, and not the entire new testament? (mostly paul anyway, i believe).

 

[جوري]

There is some truth to what the atheist fellow said..

there are however 5 books not four..
scrolls (suhuf) of Abraham (PBUH), zabur of David, tawrat of Moses, Injeel of Jesus, and the Quran... Quran is the criterion of what preceeded...

if you are Muslim, it all comes together in perfect harmony and makes perfect sense.. if any of the other, including Manadeans who stop at John the Baptist, they have a hard time reconciling the other scriptures with their own so they go for some character assassination, you'll find the Jews doing this of Jesus and Mohammed (PBUT)

"Balaam also the son of Beor, the soothsayer, [did the children of Israel slay with the sword].3 A soothsayer? But he was a prophet! — R. Johanan said: At first he was a prophet, but subsequently a soothsayer.4 R. Papa observed: This is what men say, 'She who was the descendant of princes and governors, played the harlot with carpenters.'5 Did the children of Israel slay with the sword among them that were slain by them.6 Rab said: They subjected him to four deaths, stoning, burning, decapitation and strangulation.7"—I. Epstein, Sanhedrin 106a-b, "Sanhedrin II", The Babylonian Talmud, Volume 28, The Soncino Press, London, (1935), pp. 721-729, at 725.

you'll find the christians doing this about prophet Mohammed.. their existence and survival of their religions can't be otherwise.. and it is very unfortunate...
peace

 

[barney]

you'll find the christians doing this about prophet Mohammed.. their existence and survival of their religions can't be otherwise.. and it is very unfortunate...
peace

Actually christianity survived at least 500 years without islam or any attacks on the prophet.
Admittedly those 500 years were spent wrestling with the bizzareness of their own beleif, but thats the rule with these things not the exception.

 

[جوري]

Actually christianity survived at least 500 years without islam or any attacks on the prophet.
Admittedly those 500 years were spent wrestling with the bizzareness of their own beleif, but thats the rule with these things not the exception.

Eh, that is how it goes, when you have a new baby, the old one is jealous trying to re-affirm its existence, that is of course, if you'll forgive the analogy.. a lone child is odd indeed and needs some perspective!

cheers

 

[barney]

Or the new baby copies the old one and can never live up to its older sibling. Hey, you know psychology. Which one is the more rational prospective

 

[جوري]

Or the new baby copies the old one and can never live up to its older sibling. Hey, you know psychology. Which one is the more rational prospective

if only it were true.. but the youngest, is also the oldest and stands above all...
speaking of which.. I challange you to bring me just one chapter from any of the previous scriptures, say like that of suret al'3adyat (100) in complexity of language, content, complete rhyme/poetry/meaning/ or show me its semblance in the previous scriptures a mere 11 verses each verse no more than two or three powerful words, and considered by myself to be the most complex in language (Arabic is my mother tongue) that you'll not find traslations using same words to denote what the sura actually means...
or do that for any of the others for that matter!

peace

 

[جوري]

[media]http://youtube.com/watch?v=9zgQanLoUo8[/media]

The Message of the Quran

Muhammad Asad



AL-ADIYAT (THE CHARGERS)

THE HUNDREDTH SURAH
Total Verses: 11
MECCA PERIOD



Introduction



REVEALED after surah 103. For an explanation of the symbolism of "the chargers", see note 2 below.



IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MOST GRACIOUS, THE DISPENSER OF GRACE:



1) Oh, 1 the chargers that run panting,



(2) sparks of fire striking,



(3) rushing to assault at morn,



(4) thereby raising clouds of dust,



(5) thereby storming [blindly] into any host! 2



(6) VERILY, towards his Sustainer man is most ungrateful 3 –



(7) and to this, behold, he [himself] bears witness indeed:



(8) for, verily, to the love of wealth is he most ardently devoted.



(9) But does he not know that [on the Last Day,] when all that is in the graves is raised and brought out,



(10) and all that is [hidden] in men's hearts is bared –



(11) that on that Day their Sustainer [will show that He] has always been fully aware of them?





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



1 Since the subsequent clauses refer to a parabolic, imaginary situation, the adjurative particle wa is more suitably rendered here as "Oh", instead of the rendering "Consider' usually adopted by me, or the adjuration "By" appearing in most other translations.



2 I.e., blinded by clouds of dust and not knowing whether their assault aims at friend or foe. The metaphoric image developed in the above five verses is closely connected with the sequence, although this connection has never been brought out by the classical commentators. The term al-adiyat undoubtedly denotes the war-horses, or chargers, employed by the Arabs from time immemorial down to the Middle Ages (the feminine gender of this term being due to the fact that, as a rule, they preferred mares to stallions). But whereas the conventional explanation is based on the assumption that "the chargers" symbolize here the believers' fight in God's cause (jihad) and, therefore, represent something highly commendable, it takes no account whatever of the discrepancy between so positive an imagery and the condemnation expressed in verses 6 ff., not to speak of the fact that such a conventional interpretation does not provide any logical link between the two parts of the surah. But since such a link must exist, and since verses 6-11 are undoubtedly condemnatory, we must conclude that the first five verses, too, have the same – or at least, a similar - character. This character becomes at once obvious if we dissociate ourselves from the preconceived notion that the imagery of "the chargers" is used here in a laudatory sense. In fact, the opposite is the case. Beyond any doubt, "the chargers" symbolize the erring human soul or self - a soul devoid of all spiritual direction, obsessed and ridden by all manner of wrong, selfish desires, madly, unseeingly rushing onwards, unchecked by conscience or reason, blinded by the dust-clouds of confused and confusing appetites, storming into insoluble situations and, thus, into its own spiritual destruction.



3 I.e., whenever he surrenders to his appetites, symbolized by the madly storming chargers, he forgets God and his own responsibility to Him.




compare the translation to that of pickthal or some of the others!

cheers

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Beauitful recitation MashaAllah. I needed that ha. Relaxed my mind!

 

[جوري]

Beauitful recitation MashaAllah. I needed that ha. Relaxed my mind!

listen to this please.

http://www.islamway.com/?iw_s=outdo...mber=1&mp3_size=5.18&rm_number=1&rm_size=2.73

here is the abridged version from youtube
[media]http://youtube.com/watch?v=FnMsUWruRfY[/media]


and this one, another one of my favorites

[media]http://youtube.com/watch?v=f_X1fEC2TMg[/media]
if the link doesn't work?
then
http://youtube.com/watch?v=f_X1fEC2TMg


and let me know, where those who claim the Quran is plagiarized from the bible, where the plagiarism actually is..

There is no other book like it on earth!

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Umm yea i cant see the second sis. We both know there's no book like it! Alhamdulillah! Doesnt really matter what people say, Allah Ta'ala has declared what He Wills and no one can change that The second is beautiful indeed and my favorite recitor.

 

[Armand]

Injeel is none of the current four gospels, some contend that the original injeel was either written by the only disciple who actually hung around Jesus 'barnabas' .. some think it is a fake, whatever the case, we don't actually know who luke/mark/mat etc actually are, thus their books are actually very questionable according to Islam.. the original Injeel should be free from error as it is divinly inspired..(clearely not the case with any of the versions or the re-defined versions of what is now widely accepted)

Actually, the Injeel was not written by any disciple. The Injeel was a Book of Revelation sent down to Jesus (pbuh); the Gospels we have today are not a corrupt version of the Book. They are written as accounts on Jesus' life and message. According to the rejected Gospel of Barnabas, Jesus received his own scripture from his Lord.

The Injeel is no longer existent. Christians will argue that this is so because it never did exist notwithstanding that thousands of their books have been discarded, as they were not in agreement with their newfound creed. Anyway, that is the truth about the Injeel.