Did Jesus Die on the Cross?

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yes, but inshaAllah they are trying to get rid of them. and they should be reported if found.
 
^^^ what are you talking about? I was talking about getting rid of Xtian adverts on the web. and Xtians are welceome if they don't try to spread their belief and turn Muslims against Islam. And sorry if you are banned eventually for breaking forum rules, you are in no way a martyr
 
But if Islam is wrong shouldn't we discuss it and be aware of it and know the reason why it is wrong? I find no record anywhere, like we have the Biblical texts, that the first churches by the first disciples weren't built on the resurrection of Jesus.
 
nousername said:
it's against forum rules to proselytize any religion other than Islam on Islamic boards
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It is,however I doubt if this can be seen as promoting Christianity. It looks like the thread is showing very good reasons to believe what many call Christianity is a lie.

The poster seems to be wrapped up in the concept that the 12 apostles would have disagreed with any false teachings. That is probably true. But it has not yet sunk into the thread starters head that what is called Christianity did not come about until long after the last apostle died. The Apostles never saw the mishash of errors that came about 300 years after them. I suspect the Apostles would be very appalled to see what is today being passed off as Christianity.

The thread starter is a very confused person and very misguided. Instead of condemning him we should make Du'a that Allaah(swt) leads him to the truth.
 
Shouldn't we ask the question, if the first churches got set up based on the non-resurrection of Jesus why is there no record of this? and thus no evidence.
 
Parture said:
But if Islam is wrong shouldn't we discuss it and be aware of it and know the reason why it is wrong? I find no record anywhere, like we have the Biblical texts, that the first churches by the first disciples weren't built on the resurrection of Jesus.
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Do you not believe God(swt) is powerful enough to forgive all sins with just a thought?

Do you not see how egotistical and demeaning it is to think mankind is so good and powerful we can require the sacrifice of God(swt) himself for us? Is this not the ultimate blasphemy and placing ourselves as being so powerful God(swt) needs to sacrifice for us?

This religion you call Christianity did not come into existence until at least 300 years after the last Christian died.
 
Woodrow said:
Do you not believe God(swt) is powerful enough to forgive all sins with just a thought?

Do you not see how egotistical and demeaning it is to think mankind is so good and powerful we can require the sacrifice of God(swt) himself for us? Is this not the ultimate blasphemy and placing ourselves as being so powerful God(swt) needs to sacrifice for us?

This religion you call Christianity did not come into existence until at least 300 years after the last Christian died.
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Wouldn't the sacrifice have to be greater than that being sacrificed for? How can the sacrifice be sufficient if it is less than those sacrificed for?

God can forgive sins, but He can't do it unrighteously by you refusing to accept the payment that is necessary to reconcile you back to Himself. If it is necessry in our world in everyday affairs, so why would God's standards be less than ours?
 
Parture said:
Wouldn't the sacrifice have to be greater than that being sacrificed for? How can the sacrifice be sufficient if it is less than those sacrificed for?

God can forgive sins, but He can't do it unrighteously by you refusing to accept the payment that is necessary to reconcile you back to Himself. If it is necessry in our world in everyday affairs, so why would God's standards be less than ours?
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That may not be the most egotistical, narcissistic comment I ever read, but it ranks to being very high on the list.

We humans combined are not worth one speck of dust in the infinite vastness of God(swt) one fleeting thought of God(swt) is more of a sacrifice that all of mankind combined is worth. Yet we know that God(swt) is all forgiving and he can forgive the most undeserving of sinners if he so desires to do so. We do not and can not earn his mercy. It is bestowed upon us by his will alone and not because we earn or deserve it.

The simple fact that God(swt) would will for us to be forgiven is a greater sacrifice that we are worthy of. No sacrifice is needed.

Especially not a false sacrifice that is very belittling to the nature of God(swt). If God(swt) requires a sacrifice or that is a blasphemous statement and saying God(swt) is not all-powerful.

A god who needs and requires sacrifice is a very pagan concept. Sounds like somebody with an ego problem attempting to control God(swt).
 
Parture said:
But if Islam is wrong shouldn't we discuss it and be aware of it and know the reason why it is wrong? I find no record anywhere, like we have the Biblical texts, that the first churches by the first disciples weren't built on the resurrection of Jesus.
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Have you ever heard of the Gnostics? Are you aware of the huge debates that went on in the early years of the Christian church over whether Jesus PBUH resurrected? The Marcionites? There were rifts and schisms and disagreements over the resurrection, whether Jesus P had a body, the canon, which gospels were legitimate, etc., for the first few hundred years. There was no "Church" as you define it for about 300 years after the events took place.

:wa:
 
Woodrow said:
The simple fact that God(swt) would will for us to be forgiven is a greater sacrifice that we are worthy of. No sacrifice is needed.

If God(swt) requires a sacrifice or that is a blasphemous statement and saying God(swt) is not all-powerful
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God wants to interact with us in person, not only by His Spirit indwelling us and our praying to the Father. Therefore, if we are going to receive Him as such, we have to accept who He is when He arrives. If men killed Him when He came in the likeness of flesh we should receive Him all the more because He takes this shedding of His blood to forgive our sins and become sin for us: to pay the penalty, the ransom, that must be paid. If God is going to reign in person for 1000 years in the 3rd Temple in Jerusalem then he will have a body when He is in His creation and reigning with His overcomer saints.

God requires payment for sin and since if we were to take it even though God forgives us, that payment is still Hell for eternity. The payment then He takes upon Himself and not just in some ethereal way, but literally for Himself in the flesh, so that whosoever believeth in Him and what He did for us on the cross shall be saved and received unto God.

Even if this was not enough to convince you, all you would need to rely on is the objective proof of resurrection in which we find none of the original apostles ever wrote anything against the resurrection. But we have many Christian sources purported to be those apostles, other Christian sources about those apostles, and non-Christian sources about those apostles.

For example, we have 45 ancient sources citing 129 facts about Jesus, and 17 of those sources are non-Christian. Of those 17, twelve speak of his death, 7 of his deity, and 7 of his resurrection. Of the total 45 texts, which is 4x more than Tiberius, 24 of them speak of his resurrection.

I am simply giving into the evidence and so I am justified by it. I know this is hard to understand, because man's flesh is strong and independent, but think of it this way. God will not blame you for abiding in the evidence. Let's say it turns out that Jesus is not God. Well God wouldn't blame you for that and judge you since the evidence points only to that fact and nowhere else. But if you are right that Jesus is God, then you receive eternal blessings and not go to Hell with the unsaved.

Praise the Lord!
 
Rabi Mansur said:
Have you ever heard of the Gnostics? Are you aware of the huge debates that went on in the early years of the Christian church over whether Jesus PBUH resurrected? The Marcionites? There were rifts and schisms and disagreements over the resurrection, whether Jesus P had a body, the canon, which gospels were legitimate, etc., for the first few hundred years. There was no "Church" as you define it for about 300 years after the events took place.

:wa:
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Those came in the 2nd and 3rd century, too far removed from the Biblical texts. Everyone is going to say all kinds of things, but we really only need be concerned with the primary texts.
 
Parture said:
I am simply giving into the evidence and so I am justified by it. I know this is hard to understand, because man's flesh is strong and independent, but think of it this way. God will not blame you for abiding in the evidence. Let's say it turns out that Jesus is not God. Well God wouldn't blame you for that and judge you since the evidence points only to that fact and nowhere else. But if you are right that Jesus is God, then you receive eternal blessings and not go to Hell with the unsaved.

Praise the Lord!
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You're wrong about that. God is almighty and all powerful. he doesn't want his creation to associate partners with him, he is monotheistic.
 
nousername said:
You're wrong about that. God is almighty and all powerful. he doesn't want his creation to associate partners with him, he is monotheistic.
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God didn't create to be an absentee landlord or a distant bystander. He wants fellowship and not just prayers to the Father and doing His will by the Holy Spirit in us who are saved, but He literally wants to walk amongst His creation. That is wonderful and glorious! Are you telling me your god doesn't want to or can't do this?
 
You just need to understand that in Islam, Muslims believe that God is JUST ONE, and has NO PARTNERS. PERIOD! Jesus pbuh, was a great and highly respected prophet NO MORE NO LESS. But he is dead and in heaven, so he can't help anyone. Only God can. God is Almighty, their is nothing He cannot do. He doesn't "need" to walk amongst his creation when He already knows each of us so intimately and knows exactly what's in our hearts and minds, and has known this before we were conceived. You make God seem weak and pathetic, that he would need to be murdered in order for us to be "saved". So tell me, Christians don't need to worry about hellfire no matter what they do BC someone already "spilled" their blood for them? Where is personal accountability then?
 
nousername said:
You just need to understand that in Islam, Muslims believe that God is JUST ONE, and has NO PARTNERS. PERIOD! Jesus pbuh, was a great and highly respected prophet NO MORE NO LESS. But he is dead and in heaven, so he can't help anyone. Only God can. God is Almighty, their is nothing He cannot do. He doesn't "need" to walk amongst his creation when He already knows each of us so intimately and knows exactly what's in our hearts and minds, and has known this before we were conceived. You make God seem weak and pathetic, that he would need to be murdered in order for us to be "saved". So tell me, Christians don't need to worry about hellfire no matter what they do BC someone already "spilled" their blood for them? Where is personal accountability then?
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You said Jesus "he is dead and in heaven". I thought Muslims taught Jesus never died. By the way Christians believe nobody is in heaven yet. 1 Thess. 4.15-17 says those who are alive and left will not be taken up before those who are asleep, and Acts says not even David a man after God's own heart is in heaven yet.

It's one thing to know everything about us and another to have personal interaction with us in person, like when Jesus walked the earth, chose his disciples and told them he will give us only one sign, the sign of Jonah in the belly of whale for 3 days and nights, and he would raise his temple up on the third day. I am sure there were many who did not understand what he was talking about, but he talked in parables like this to get us to think, because frankly I think if Jesus always spelled it out for us in no uncertain terms, everyone would think he is wacko. Time is needed for it to sink it, for the cross to work by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The fact remains there is a payment that is necessary for sin. So it is in our world, so it is with God who makes this world. That's the meaning of the Jewish sacrifices as a temporary measure before Christ came to be our Isaac on the altar. There is either Hell as the payment or God takes the payment in our stead. If someone doesn't understand the nature of sin in his conscience, he will not appreciate this. He will need to read the Old Testament law to see that no man can keep the law proving we are all sinners, that sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell.

God seems greater that He would suffer for us (Is. 53), for there is no greater love than to suffer for a fellow man. How can God's morals be less than ours in this regard?

Let's say someone claims to be a Christian then goes rapes and murders and pillages. Do you really think they were a Christian to begin with? Of course not. The Holy Spirit restrains us from such acts, so it is not true at all, once saved we can do anything. God literally will work on our conscience to not do many things. And there are consequences for Christians. If a Christian though he can't lose eternal life and God is not fickle, only gives eternal life once, remains carnal and tied down to the world like a balloon, he will not escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world (Rev. 3.10) nor return with Christ to reign (Jude 14,15; Rev. 20) during the 1000 years as kings and priests.

Man must realize he can't save himself by Islamic works, for God is infinitely greater than him; nothing of works can satisfy God's heart. The only thing that satisfies God's heart is His Son, for only His Son does His perfect will. And if we give our lives to Christ, He who is in heaven now comes to indwell us by the Holy Spirit and guide us in all things unto perfection to become pillars of the New City in the New Earth. Amen.
 

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