Did Jesus Die on the Cross?

[Parture]

The question remains if it is true, why is there no record of anyone saying Jesus didn't die on the cross until centuries later?

 

[aadil77]

The question remains if it is true, why is there no record of anyone saying Jesus didn't die on the cross until centuries later?

it doesn't matter whether you think he died or was raised at the time, the main thing is it shouldn't be a reason to start worshipping him

 

[Parture]

it doesn't matter whether you think he died or was raised at the time, the main thing is it shouldn't be a reason to start worshipping him

It does matter because if he didn't die, then the Koran is false and not of God. If he did die and was resurrected then you have every reason to worship Him because only God could resurrect Himself.

Are you comfortable calling Paul a liar who said he spent 15 days with Peter who gave to him the gospel of salvation?

 

[جوري]

Let's start with the first one. I am not clear what prophecy you are talking about by stating "Genesis".

I think it should be clear as it is quoting from the book you hold dear, and it is obvious that it is filled with lies... go ahead read them one by one, work out why what is written and what has occurred are so at odds, and after you are done with that, come again and tell us, why believing that god descended to bed a 12 year old and father himself with her after enunciating himself in a different form, dam ning the earth for not bearing him fruit, forsaking himself after a nigh of prayer to himself is superior to the concept of Ganesh one of the Hindu gods.. I can't tell you how ridiculous christianity is from other people's perspective!

 

[aadil77]

It does matter because if he didn't die, then the Koran is false and not of God. If he did die and was resurrected then you have every reason to worship Him because only God could resurrect Himself.

Are you comfortable calling Paul a liar who said he spent 15 days with Peter who gave to him the gospel of salvation?

I was talking about the people who lived in the period between prophet Isa and prophet muhammad, it would be irrelevent if they did/didn't have the knowledge of what happened to him as it wouldn't affect fundamental beliefs

I don't know anything about paul

 

[Parture]

What someone says a century or two or three later or more is irrelevant upon the primary sources for evidence since it is simply too far removed. We have 45 ancient sources within 150 years of Jesus' death citing 129 facts about him. And not one of them claim Jesus didn't die on the cross. 24 of them speak of his resurrection and even more of his death.

In light of the total amount of evidence nearest to the events we are discussing, God won't blame you for repenting and believing in Christ as your Lord God and Savior who was raised from the dead on the third day. But if Jesus is God and "all things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1.3), then you have everything to look forward to if you receive Him into your heart.

God loves you.

 

[جوري]

what 'facts' are those, you can't even get a historical account of Jesus from an independent history book, all we have is a book filled with fairy tales of whom others have argued against the concept of trinity from the very beginning..ever heard of Arius and Asthanthius? surely christians are some of the most ignorant folks we have encountered, ignorant of their own history and book and then come and argue 'truth' why not reconcile all those failed prophesies from your good back and then come later and argue 'facts'?

all the best

 

[Parture]

There are 17 non-Christian sources within 150 years of Jesus' death. 12 of them speak of his death, 7 of his deity and 7 of his resurrection.

 

[Woodrow]

The question remains if it is true, why is there no record of anyone saying Jesus didn't die on the cross until centuries later?

Probably because what was being taught was an error. The people who believed Jesus(PBUH) died were mistaken. The man who they thought was Jesus(PBUH) was not Jesus(PBUH). Also keep in mind the concept of the Trinity was not believed until after the Nicene council and there was even a big dispute over who should be considered part of the Trinity. The original teaching was it was Mary, Jesus and the Father. But the Greeks lost out and the Romans won with the concept of the "Holy Ghost". The Apostles never taught anything about a Trinity and not all Christians even some of today accepted that error.

This is one of the indications that the true message of Jesus was lost very early and it was not until the Qur'an that the error was corrected.

 

[Woodrow]

As long as you persist in believing the Bible is true you will stay lost and mistaken. Please provide some evidence the Bible is true and not the work and mistakes of Greek and Roman founders of a false belief.

Tell me who wrote the Book of John for starters. Even most Christian theologians are in agreement they do not know and John was just a name assigned to unknown authors.

For example: http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/john_gospel.htm

 

[syed_z]

It does matter because if he didn't die, then the Koran is false and not of God. If he did die and was resurrected then you have every reason to worship Him because only God could resurrect Himself.

Are you comfortable calling Paul a liar who said he spent 15 days with Peter who gave to him the gospel of salvation?

No paul was a liar because...

Any research in to history would make it clear, that There was a division between Trinitarians and Unitarians and the division was caused by none other than Pauline Theology!

Jesus if you look in to History taught the Old Testament Law, while Paul taught the Mysteries of Death and other theories, while completely forgetting and putting the Law aside, that is why Christians do not have a Law and they only talk about Love Love. The law which was being taught by the line of succession of Prophets who came before Jesus was being corrected whenever it was changed by corrupt Priesthood... and so one more time Jesus (a.s) came to correct it, but after Jesus's death, Paul focused more on Life of Jesus and his death!

“. . . except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel?” (Matthew 15:24)

He was sent to The children of Israel, because their Law was corrupt and he had come to correct their Law. Could you please answer why Paul did not mentions Law , is he was indeed a true Priest ? Why did Love replace law ?

 

[Woodrow]

There are 17 non-Christian sources within 150 years of Jesus' death. 12 of them speak of his death, 7 of his deity and 7 of his resurrection.

Every wonder why they did not not become Christian? Apparently they had reason not to believe that to be true. They were much closer to the events then you are yet they had sufficient reason not to believe them to be true. So 2000 years later with just an erroneous book as a guide, you have reason to believe that is true.

Sounds like you are a good candidate to sell a genuine artificial Rolex watch to. What other fallacies have you bought into in your life?

 

[Woodrow]

The question remains if it is true, why is there no record of anyone saying Jesus didn't die on the cross until centuries later?

That is a very nonsensical statement. You actually believe that because there is no record of Jesus(PBUH) not doing something is proof he did it? It may surprise you to discover there is no record saying Jesus(PBUH) did not eat baked Alaska for desert, so according to you that is proof he ate Baked Alaska for desert. There is also no record that says he did not watch the Flintstones on TV so I assume you accept that as proof he watched the Flintstones on TV.

 

[Predator]

Did jesus die on the cross.

Was the Person on the Cross Really Jesus?

The Bible says

“For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;” (Psalms 37:28)

Mary the mother of Jesus is a virtuous and saintly God fearing woman

Yet when Jesus Christ (pbuh) was put on the cross according to the Bible. He cried out

“About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mathew 27:46)

“And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34)

How can Jesus be forsaken when God does not forsake his faithful ones?? Now you have four options to choose from.

1. The person put on the cross was not really Jesus.

2. Jesus (pbuh) was not faithful to God.

3. Jesus (pbuh) lied that God forsook him.

4. Bible is lying when it says that God does not forsake his beloved ones.

You have four options to choose from. Now with whatever gymnastics you try. You cannot add a fifth option here. So decide for yourself.

God can forgive sins, but He can't do it unrighteously by you refusing to accept the payment that is necessary to reconcile you back to Himself. If it is necessry in our world in everyday affairs, so why would God's standards be less than ours?

He can forgive it if you repent sincerely and that was always his standard

Ezekiel 18:21
"But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.

The root of Christianity is the original sin upon which the crucifixion is justified and used for the benefit of Christians. If original sin is thrown away, then the crucifixion becomes dead.

None of these two man-made beliefs are true and original sin is nowhere to be found in the entire Bible.


Ezek 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
(Deuteronomy 24:16)
“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”

The Bible is very clear that no person will be responsible for the sins of others. Each person is answerable for himself alone and cannot blame it on Adam and Eve.

This concept matches exactly the Qur’anic point on this issue.

(Quran 6:164)
“No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another.”

 

[Dagless]

When Jesus went into Abraham's bosom, it's simply a place of rest. Jesus agreed with the Father and the Spirit before the world began that Jesus would be the one that would go down to the good side of Hades.

This in itself should tell you there is something amiss here. Why does Jesus have to agree with the Father and the Spirit? What if he didn't agree? How can they argue? How can you say there is one God when this quote indicates 3 separate entities. You cannot say they are 3 faces of the same God because then no agreement would be required. By giving each their own opinion/direction they are then different.

 

[Parture]

Probably because what was being taught was an error. The people who believed Jesus(PBUH) died were mistaken. The man who they thought was Jesus(PBUH) was not Jesus(PBUH).

You have a theory but you have no evidence for you theory, and all the evidence goes against your theory, so no reasonable person should believe it. If this was a court of law your case would be thrown out.

 

[syed_z]

@parture

well actually you for pretending to be blind should be thrown out of this Forum... read Post #74 or just leave... don't believe or believe up to you... don't waste peoples time here...

 

[nousername]

be gone, troll. No one is going to start worshiping a Prophet, we worship only the Creator. You missionaries are so annoying.

 

[Parture]

This in itself should tell you there is something amiss here. Why does Jesus have to agree with the Father and the Spirit? What if he didn't agree? How can they argue? How can you say there is one God when this quote indicates 3 separate entities. You cannot say they are 3 faces of the same God because then no agreement would be required. By giving each their own opinion/direction they are then different.

Jesus said, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17.5).

"Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient [even] unto death, yea, the death of the cross. Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven and [things] on earth and [things] under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2.5-11).

 

[Dagless]

Thanks for answering. Even preachers who come on here usually leave when asked these simple questions.

Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant

So he is all-powerful but not quite as all-powerful as something else. This sounds like a contradiction. 'God' has a clear definition. Either he is God or is not God, it's not a sliding scale.

and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient [even] unto death

You're basically saying God needed humbling and then became obedient to himself - and then died (wouldn't this contradict one of the main characteristics of a God) :|

Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name

Here are the options:

1) He is God - if this is true he cannot die, need humbling, being obedient to anyone, or to be named by another as "higher than everyone".
2) He is not God - therefore why call him God. If there is another, more powerful than him, then perhaps demigod is a more fitting term?

Either way it should acknowledge the oneness of God and move you away from ascribing partners to Him.