Did Jesus (p) Deny Being God?

[HeiGou]

well of course the fact that christians eat pork and they consume alcohol

And so? It is entirely consistent with Jesus' entire message as understood from the NT, that eating pork and drinking alcohol are irrelevant to the issue of being a God-fearing good person. He says, specifically, it does not matter what goes in your mouth but comes out of your heart.

It is not proof the Bible has been changed.

 

[HeiGou]

how can u worship something that was created and can die just like a human. God is everywere, he knowes everthing and can do anything. Thier is nothing like him. He was the only one that was thier before the universe ever existed.

Very easily as it happens. Even Muslims, although they are not supposed to, have tended to "venerate" Sufi pirs and the like in the past in a way that looks a lot like worship to me. The problem with God being everywhere, and hence no where specifically, is that it appeals to people who have access to His message and in particular urban educated people. This is, indeed, the group of people to whom Islam (and Protestant Christianity) appeals most. It does not appeal that much to the poor, the rural and the female who cannot read the Text (be it Quran or Bible) and so have no way of knowing about their religion. Nor any control over it. So these people have always tended to "shirk" by attending shrines. Their piety is the piety of the illiterate. I do not want to pursuade you to change your mind, given what you must think about that, but can't you see why the Murabit would appeal to an old poor illiterate peasant women?

 

[HeiGou]

i have a question? how many bibles do the christance have? And would they make more different versions of it in the future? Both Judasim and christianity were changes by man ideas and man make mistakes. However islam has never been change, its 100% gods words and thats why its perfect. Thier is no errors on it and it makes alot of since.

The Quran may not be changed and God is certainly still the same, but it would be wrong to say that Muslim's interpretation of Islam has remained the same. You only have to look at "kingship". Now perhaps Muhammed was against the idea of kingship, it looks to me as if he was. But soon after Muhammed died, Muslims came around to the idea of dynasties and Sultans and for the next 1300 years hereditary rulers were as Islamic as you could get. No one thought they were not Islamic. But now most Muslims reject the idea of kingship and insist that democracy and republicanism are what Islam really means. So whatever Islam has or has not done, Muslims' interpretation has changed. And you can find a lot of similar examples - scientific miracles? Where is the evidence Muslims thought this 100 years ago? Women's rights? When did Muslims first discover Islam protected women's rights?

 

[PrIM3]

Peace Nimrod:

Actually, not that it was taken out of context...but showing the additional verses clarifies completely what I was saying.

Notice how Jesus, pbuh, doesn't refer to Himself as divine here....not even once. All glory is given to God alone. Jesus, pbuh, never takes credit for anything and is clearly telling you everything He did and everything He taught, came from the one who sent Him....His Creator.

So, thank you for providing the extra verses to make this more clear.

Peace,
Hana

Philippians 2:6-8 Christ-- being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death -- even death on a cross

so it is Gods Nature that He shall humble Himself... it was Gods nature that created us all

 

[------]

Very easily as it happens. Even Muslims, although they are not supposed to, have tended to "venerate" Sufi pirs and the like in the past in a way that looks a lot like worship to me.

Thats wrong tho. :rollseyes

 

[PrIM3]

PrIM3,
May peace and blessings be upon you brother. Concerning "Before Abraham was I am" John 8:58. Here is an explanation by Shiekh Ahmed Deedat.

Jesus saying "I am":
I hope that helps.
Peace and blessings.

I had to cut it down sorry..


no that doesn't after reading it the guy is unsure of what he said... or doesn't seem to be confident in what He said... and there are other things Jesus said that God also said in the old testiment...

Jesus called himself the shephard..

then He states He is also the true vine... not that God said that in the old testiment.. but He doesn't state moses or anyone was the true vine.

 

[HeiGou]

Thats wrong tho. :rollseyes

Even I can tell that it is wrong by the standards of the Muslims of Muhammed's time. But that did not stop Muslims doing it for about 1000 years. People are frail and weak. They often interpret religion in ways that seem odd to later generations. Islam does not change perhaps, but people's understanding of it sure does.

 

[sumay28]

http://downloads1.nadeemdownloads.c...ommon Sense of Islam by Sheik Yusuf Estes.mp3

I like this lecture. Good for non-muslims to listen to.

 

[al-fateh]

thanks for the link sis

dont mind if i borrow it for my site

thanks a lot

 

[Skillganon]

Skillganon the answer was incomplete, I will leave it at that till a seperate thread is started that is focused on the question.

Thanks
Nimrod

It's cool Nimrod, I have been in similar argument's before! Yo asked for an intepretation from muslim. Someone gave you one, if it is incomplete please show how it is so!

Thank's

 

[*Hana*]

Philippians 2:6-8 Christ-- being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death -- even death on a cross

so it is Gods Nature that He shall humble Himself... it was Gods nature that created us all

Peace PrIM3:

You're quoting Paul here, not the teachings or sayings of Jesus, pbuh. And, really, Jesus, pbuh, according to Biblical scripture, did not appear humble and obedient at the time of the crucifixion. He wasn't high-fiving the Jews on His way to die and prayed, begging to let death pass Him, and clearly separates himself from divinity by adding,"...by YOUR will." Obviously, Jesus, pbuh, did not have the ability to prevent the incident He so desperately didn't want to be part. And, while hanging on the cross He continues to pray, "Ilah! Ilah! Lama Sabachthani!" My God! My God! Why hast thou forsaken me? Further proving, He wasn't the all knowing God. If He were, why did he pray and ask, and to whom?

Anyway, as far as Pauline doctrine goes, Ali Ataie, says it best:

"...Pauline influence on the four evangelist accounts is quite obvious. All of Paul’s letters were written and widely circulated before a single Gospel was even put down on parchment. It is unfortunate that no Gospel of Jesus composed prior to or concurrent with Paul’s writings has survived long enough to be handed down to us for research. Whether this was deliberately done or not will never be known. Again, all of our information about Paul comes from only two sources, Paul himself, and Luke, Paul’s student. What we do know is that there were undeniably different interpretations, oral traditions, and Gospels of Jesus proclaimed in Paul’s time that did not agree with his teaching. Paul, realizing the danger in this, exhorts his church in Galatia to reject anyone who may preach to them “another gospel” unlike that which he has told them (Galatians 1:8)..."

There are numerous issues with Paul's "doctrine" and I would be more than happy to discuss those in another thread as it is going off topic here.

Peace,
Hana

 

[ivanna25]

Salam,

When we, muslims, discuss with Christians about their religion and try to convince them that their religion has been falsified and we refer them to our holy Book which is an extension to all previous Books, the christians always ask us to go back to their bible. Why you want me to go to your bible to find the prooves that Jesus is God's son or he is god Himself and you know that Muslims believe and fully convinced that many sections of the bible has been modified by some people. How can I refer to something, I believe, has some errors. And when we Muslims ask you to go back to our holy book, you refuse because simply you dont believe in it. Well, Quran answers all the questions that cross your mind but you do not want to listen. There is a logic in quran which solves all the problems.
There are logic verses which questiion the issue of whether God has son or no? the questions that are asked by all human beings. Again in quran which you dont believe in, there are some questions which I hope you find an answer to it. In Surah "Al-Nahl or the Bee", verse 17, God asks all the people: ( Is He then Who creates like him who does not create? Do you not then mind? ). How can you worship Jesus who cant create and who couldnt save himself from being crusified? ( though as Muslims we dont believe in crucifcation, rather we believe that Jesus' soul had been elevated to God , and the latter gives more value to Jesus) How can you say that Jesus who has suffered all his life is your god or the son of god. If the Father powerful, the son must be powerful,too. Dont you think so?
I dont think that any father can let his son suffer without interfering to rescue him immediately.

Believing that Jesus is God Himself is illogical. How can God came from above and came down to the earth in the image of human being and be exposed to people's harm? or If you believe that Jesus is not God himself but God's son, then this means, in one way or another, there are two gods. Or I dont know how you percieve things by beleiving that Jesus is the son of God? Anyway, the Quran again uses logical arguments to proove that the existence of only one God without associating anything with him is better for all humanity. why? Surah " al-Anbiyae or the Prophets" verse 22, God says: " If there had been in them any gods except Allah, they would both have certainly been in a state of disorder; therefore glory be to Allah, the Lord of the dominion, above what they attribute (to Him)". Other surah "Al-muminoun or the Believers", verse 91, God says : " Never did Allah take to Himself a son, and never was there with him any (other) god-- in that case would each god have certainly taken away what he created, and some of them would certainly have overpowered others; glory be to Allah above what they describe! ".

Having more than one God certainly would lead to chaos. For the human welfare, one God is the best. More than one God is chaos and disagreement. Thats quite logical. Again, i dont know how christians and particularly the Western people, though they have reached the highest level of developement in different levels are unable to use thier brains in one thing which is really serious and can lead them all to the breakdown which is the idea of the sonship of Jesus to God. How can God, if He really had a son as you believe, can have a son made of clay like us, has reason and desires, how? Where are the similarities between God and Jesus? ?????

I am really unbale to find the answers for all this, so do you have any?

Thanks.

 

[ivanna25]

another question, christians say that "Jesus is the son of God" and they have proove from thier bible; Jews claim that "Uzair is the son of god" and they have proof in their bible as they claim; the old Arab infidels caim that angels are the daughters of God. I wonder how many sons and daughters God have?????

Who is noble and better, beleiving that God has no son nor daughter as mentioned in Quran, surah "al-Anam or the Cattle", verse 101, God says: " Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth! How could He have a son when He has no consort, and He (Himself) created everything, and He is the Knower of all things", or believing that He has son????

Dont you think by believeing that god has son like human beings and most of other creatures is degrading God?

Thanks

 

[PrIM3]

Peace PrIM3:

You're quoting Paul here, not the teachings or sayings of Jesus, pbuh. And, really, Jesus, pbuh, according to Biblical scripture, did not appear humble and obedient at the time of the crucifixion. He wasn't high-fiving the Jews on His way to die and prayed, begging to let death pass Him, and clearly separates himself from divinity by adding,"...by YOUR will." Obviously, Jesus, pbuh, did not have the ability to prevent the incident He so desperately didn't want to be part. And, while hanging on the cross He continues to pray, "Ilah! Ilah! Lama Sabachthani!" My God! My God! Why hast thou forsaken me? Further proving, He wasn't the all knowing God. If He were, why did he pray and ask, and to whom?

Anyway, as far as Pauline doctrine goes, Ali Ataie, says it best:

"...Pauline influence on the four evangelist accounts is quite obvious. All of Paul’s letters were written and widely circulated before a single Gospel was even put down on parchment. It is unfortunate that no Gospel of Jesus composed prior to or concurrent with Paul’s writings has survived long enough to be handed down to us for research. Whether this was deliberately done or not will never be known. Again, all of our information about Paul comes from only two sources, Paul himself, and Luke, Paul’s student. What we do know is that there were undeniably different interpretations, oral traditions, and Gospels of Jesus proclaimed in Paul’s time that did not agree with his teaching. Paul, realizing the danger in this, exhorts his church in Galatia to reject anyone who may preach to them “another gospel” unlike that which he has told them (Galatians 1:8)..."

There are numerous issues with Paul's "doctrine" and I would be more than happy to discuss those in another thread as it is going off topic here.

Peace,
Hana

according to secular stories Paul and the other apostles or desciples died for what they believed in.. Paul gave up being a person who persucuted the believers to becoming one of the greatest believers.. your telling me that paul and these other men died for a lie?
I don't believe it.. this reason you bring is not a old one it is just repackaged making it seem like a new one... for centurys people said Jesus Christ was not Lord or God.. even the Jewish people said He wasn't God they even mocked Him for who He said He was..
you know I don't think it is strange to me that there were people in the OT that went through 1 or 2 things Jesus Christ went through... but Jesus Christ went through ALL that stuff that the people in the OT went through..

 

[PrIM3]

another question, christians say that "Jesus is the son of God" and they have proove from thier bible; Jews claim that "Uzair is the son of god" and they have proof in their bible as they claim; the old Arab infidels caim that angels are the daughters of God. I wonder how many sons and daughters God have?????

Who is noble and better, beleiving that God has no son nor daughter as mentioned in Quran, surah "al-Anam or the Cattle", verse 101, God says: " Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth! How could He have a son when He has no consort, and He (Himself) created everything, and He is the Knower of all things", or believing that He has son????

Dont you think by believeing that god has son like human beings and most of other creatures is degrading God?

Thanks

I don't think you've been reading what many of us have said about this... maybe you should start from the beginning of this topic... as me and nicola state already about the term "Son of God"

 

[nimrod]

Skillganon the reason the answer is incomplete is that it doesn’t address the new effects Jesus ushered in.
God is in us in the form of the Holy Spirit/God, the same as God was in Jesus/man.

The book of Act’s showed things that had never been seen before. The apostles did things that had never been done before.

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[nimrod]

Hussein Radi, how different many versions of the Quran were around before they were burned and the Quran became standardized?

Offer proof.

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[*Hana*]

according to secular stories Paul and the other apostles or desciples died for what they believed in.. Paul gave up being a person who persucuted the believers to becoming one of the greatest believers.. your telling me that paul and these other men died for a lie?
I don't believe it.. this reason you bring is not a old one it is just repackaged making it seem like a new one... for centurys people said Jesus Christ was not Lord or God.. even the Jewish people said He wasn't God they even mocked Him for who He said He was..
you know I don't think it is strange to me that there were people in the OT that went through 1 or 2 things Jesus Christ went through... but Jesus Christ went through ALL that stuff that the people in the OT went through..

Peace PrIM3:

If you want to discuss Paul, I would be more than happy to do so, but this thread, as I said, is not about Paul, it's about Jesus, pbuh, denying divinity. Please feel free to start a new thread if you want to discuss Paul.

Peace,
Hana

 

[*Hana*]

Hussein Radi, how different many versions of the Quran were around before they were burned and the Quran became standardized?

Offer proof.

Thanks
Nimrod

Peace Nimrod:

Before you go making false statements like that, you might want to search the forum as there is already a topic about that and it discusses what Uthman did and why....and WHAT was destroyed. I highly suggest you search for the topic here and avoid Islam bashing sites as your source of information.

Over time there have been, so far, 450 known versions of the Bible. In Islam, there is ONE Qur'an and has only ever been ONE Qur'an.

And, by the way, making false statements about the Qur'an to divert attention away from the original question....doesn't change the fact you didn't answer the original question.

Peace,
Hana

 

[nimrod]

What man, who was just a prophet, ever taught anyone to ask for things in the prophets name? None.

John 14:12-14
12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

John 15:15-17
15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

John 16:23-28
23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

25 "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. 26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."

Thanks
Nimrod