Differences between The Qur'an, The Tanakh and The Bible

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Insh'Allah, we can examine the differences pertaining to the narratives and stories in the different scriptures.

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

Similarities between the bible and the Quran

 

[Sephiroth]

Well, that took the wind out of this conversation. All the answers in one place: gotta love the internet.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Lol...wikipedia.

SpaceFalcon, the site you gave me http://www.chabad.org/library/archive/LibraryArchive.asp?AID=63255 , does it have a search feature?

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

I do not think so (not for specifically bible searching anyway).

For that I usually search at http://bible.cc/ so I can find something, then I can see all the christian versions (plus the mock Jewish version, the 1917 JPS), and then go to it manually at the Chabad site (it's a little more trouble, but you get a correct translation and valid commentary).

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Okay, that's what I'll do then.

 

[mule]

SpaceFalcon2001,

Why don't you like the mock Jewish version, the 1917 JPS? Who translated it?

mule

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

Why don't you like the mock Jewish version, the 1917 JPS? Who translated it?

As is written in the introduction to the better translation, the NJPS 1985:
The Jewish Publication Society's The holy scriptures... made extensive use of [the] King James [version].
...
After WWII... the idea of a completely new translation took hold... would rely on the traditional Hebrew text avoiding emendations.

And so on and so forth. The 1917 JPS was essencially a KJV knock off.

The BEST Jewish translations are the Koren Tanach, and the Artscroll Tanach. Neither of those are availible online unfortunatly. Judaica press is a close second to those two, and the 1985 JPS is a last resort third.

Various other acceptable Jewish translations exist, but those are the big well known ones.

Jewish translations were long unnessicary, as the average religious Jew knew hebrew well enough to read it on his own. Translations only arose during times of secularization (the Aramaic Targums, 1917 JPS and on) or when they were forced under a certain government to translate due to suspicion (the Septuagint).

 

[Sephiroth]

I love my Artscroll Stone Tanakh, but for my New Testament needs, I use the New International Version Bible or the Revised Standard Edition as a secondary source, but NIV has the best footnotes and concordance IMHO.

 

[yoshiyahu]

Ok, let's discuss Avraham, Isaac, and Ishmael.

The Torah (and NT) say that Avraham took Isaac on the mountain, as well as the Oral Traditions of Judaism and Christianity.

The Qu'ran, IIRC, says that Avraham took his son on the mountain, but does not identify which son. Islamic Tradition identifies the son as Ishmael.

Which passages in the Qu'ran record this narrative?

What is the oldest record of Muslims believing that Ishmael was the one taken to the mountain, rather than Isaac?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

The Qur'an always uses the phrase Guhlam Haleem (gentle son) for Isma'il and Ghulam Aleem (knowledgable son) for Ishaaq.

The passage from the Qur'an on the sacrifice reads:
So We gave him tidings of a gentle son. And when (his son) was old enough to walk with him, (Abraham) said: O my dear son, I have seen in a dream that I must sacrifice thee. So look, what thinkest thou? He said: O my father! Do that which thou art commanded. Allah willing, thou shalt find me of the steadfast. Then, when they had both surrendered (to Allah), and he had flung him down upon his face. We called unto him: O Abraham: Thou hast already fulfilled the vision. Lo! thus do We reward the good. Lo! that verily was a clear test. Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim. And We left for him among the later folk (the salutation): Peace be unto Abraham! Thus do We reward the good. Lo! he is one of Our believing slaves. And We gave him tidings of the birth of Isaac, a Prophet of the righteous. And We blessed him and Isaac. And of their seed are some who do good, and some who plainly wrong themselves.) (As-Saffat 61: 101-113)

So two things indicate it was Isma'il:
-'gentle son'
-Birth of Ishaaq is mentioned after the sacrifice and the brith of the other son is mentioned before, thus it must be Isma'il

Here is also what scholars say on the issue:

Also, in his Mustadrak, Al-Hakim quotes Mu`awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan as saying: “We were with the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) when a Bedouin came to him and said: ‘O Messenger of Allah! I left behind me a barren and drought-stricken country. My property has vanished and my children are at loss. Bestow on me some of your favors, o son of the two human male sacrifices Az-Zabihayn (Isma`il and `Abdullah).’ The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) smiled and did not rebuke him or deny the description.”

The majority of Muslim scholars are of the view that Az-Zabih was Isma`il. They backed their view with following evidence:

1. When Ibrahim (peace and blessings be upon him) was saved from the fire, he migrated from Iraq to the Levant and said: (Lo! I am going unto my Lord Who will guide me.) (As-Saffat 61: 99)

When he grew old, he implored Allah for a son and thus Almighty Allah gave him glad tidings of a gentle son. The mother of that son was his Egyptian wife Hajar. When jealousy crept to the heart of his first wife Sarah, Allah commanded him to take Hajar and her son to Makkah. There he was subject to a test whereby Almighty Allah commanded him to slaughter his only son; Isma`il . As for Is-haq, he was born many years later and Ibrahim had been given glad tidings of his birth after the incident of sacrifice. It goes without saying that the subject of true test should be the first and the only son who then occupied a center place in his father’s heart, not the second one.

2. Ibrahim experienced a series of tests most of which relate to Hajar and her son who were placed in a remote barren valley. Ibrahim left them to Allah’s care and went back to the Levant. Frequent visits were not sufficient to stop Ibrahim’s genuine fear for his wife and her baby. The situation was compounded by the vision Ibrahim had that he was slaughtering his dear son, which means that he would definitely be filled of worry about the would-be state of Hajar. Would he leave her alone in the deserted valley? The details of the incident clearly shows that it was Isma`il who was to be sacrificed.

It is reported that when Ibrahim took his son to slaughter him, Satan encountered him many times trying to divert him from his task. Ibrahim cast him many times with pebbles. This is actually what Muslim pilgrims do in their Hajj when they cast the pebbles (Al-Jamarat).

3. When Ibrahim was given glad tidings with the coming of Is-haq, he was also informed that Is-haq would grow, marry and have a child named Ya`qub (Jacob). Allah says: (We gave her good tidings (of the birth) of Isaac, and, after Isaac, of Jacob.) (Hud 11: 71) Is it logic for Ibrahim to attempt to slaughter his son after being given glad tidings that the son would grow up and have children? How come they claim that it was Is-haq that was to be slaughtered? This is ridiculous, for if it was Is-haq to be slaughtered, who would then beget Ya`qub, to bring to reality the glad tiding given to Ibrahim before?

In giving him glad tidings about the birth of Isma`il, Ibrahim was told that Isma`il would be “gentle and persevering” while in case of Is-haq, he was described as being “learned”. Isma`il’s description perfectly matches the unquestioning obedience he gave his father.

4. The People of the Book say: “Allah commanded Ibrahim to sacrifice his sole son.” At that time, Ibrahim had no other sons except Isma`il, for in their Sacred Books it is stated that Ibrahim was given Isma`il when he was 86 years of age while he was given Is-haq when he was 99 years of age.

5- The great scholars among the pious ancestors (may Allah be pleased with them) say that Az-Zabih was Isma`il. `Umar ibn `Abdul-`Aziz is reported as having called a Jew who had embraced Islam, interrogating him on the issue. The Jew replied that it was Isma`il who was to be sacrificed. Also, Al-Asma` asked Abu `Amr ibn Al-`Ala’ about Az-Zabih and he said: “Where is your mind? Is-haq never came to Makkah. It was Isma`il who was in Makkah and built the House (The Sacred Mosque) with his father.
Sheikh Zoubir Bouchikhi, Imam of the Islamic Society of Greater Houston’s Southeast Mosque, adds:

The truth about this matter can be found in History. The Jews themselves do not deny the fact that the first son of Ibrahim was Isma`il, and History tells us that Ibrahim was tried by Allah to sacrifice his son next to the Ka`bah, and history tells us the Is-haq has never been next to the Ka`bah in Makkah, he was born in Palestine, and Isma`il was raised in Makkah.

The trial came to Ibrahim in Makkah (or at that time it was just the Ka`bah), so there is no reason for the Jews who always distort the truth to claim that it was Is-haq who was going to be sacrificed and not Isma`il.
All the above-mentioned facts indicate that it was Isma`il who was about to be slaughtered by his father, Ibrahim, and all these facts also support the hadith of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) that reads: “I am the son of Az-Zabihayn (the two who were to be sacrificed).”

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I have a story about Musa and Khidr:

Peace everyone!

Okay, I'll show you the story of Prophet Moses and the Green One from the Quran. I thought it was also present in some of the Jewish scriptures. I think you will like it.

The Children of Israel asked Prophet Moses who was the most knowledgeable person. Prophet Moses knew that he was the messenger of Allah swt and recieved the religious law, so in terms of religious obligations, he replied that it was himself. This wasn't an arrogant answer, it was a fact like saying, "As far as I know its me".

So Allah asked Moses to travel with Yusha bin Nun to seek out a person who had recieved knowledge that Moses had not recieved. This was Al-Khidr.

18:60. And (remember) when Mûsa (Moses) said to his boy-servant: "I will not give up (travelling) until I reach the junction of the two seas or (until) I spend years and years in travelling."


61. But when they reached the junction of the two seas, they forgot their fish, and it took its way through the sea as in a tunnel.


62. So when they had passed further on (beyond that fixed place), Mûsa (Moses) said to his boy-servant: "Bring us our morning meal; truly, we have suffered much fatigue in this, our journey."


63. He said:"Do you remember when we betook ourselves to the rock? I indeed forgot the fish, none but Shaitân (Satan) made me forget to remember it. It took its course into the sea in a strange (way)!"


64. [Mûsa (Moses)] said: "That is what we have been seeking." So they went back retracing their footsteps.


65. Then they found one of Our slaves, unto whom We had bestowed mercy from Us, and whom We had taught knowledge from Us.


66. Mûsa (Moses) said to him (Khidr) "May I follow you so that you teach me something of that knowledge (guidance and true path) which you have been taught (by Allâh)?"


67. He (Khidr) said: "Verily! You will not be able to have patience with me!


68. "And how can you have patience about a thing which you know not?"


69. Mûsa (Moses) said: "If Allâh will, you will find me patient, and I will not disobey you in aught."


70. He (Khidr) said: "Then, if you follow me, ask me not about anything till I myself mention it to you."


71. So they both proceeded, till, when they embarked the ship, he (Khidr) scuttled it. Mûsa (Moses) said: "Have you scuttled it in order to drown its people? Verily, you have committed a thing "Imra" (a Munkar - evil, bad, dreadful thing)."


72. He (Khidr) said: "Did I not tell you, that you would not be able to have patience with me?"


73. [Mûsa (Moses)] said: "Call me not to account for what I forgot, and be not hard upon me for my affair (with you)."


74. Then they both proceeded, till they met a boy, he (Khidr) killed him. Mûsa (Moses) said: "Have you killed an innocent person who had killed none? Verily, you have committed a thing "Nukra" (a great Munkar - prohibited, evil, dreadful thing)!"


75. (Khidr) said: "Did I not tell you that you can have no patience with me?"


76. [Mûsa (Moses)] said: "If I ask you anything after this, keep me not in your company, you have received an excuse from me."


77. Then they both proceeded, till, when they came to the people of a town, they asked them for food, but they refused to entertain them. Then they found therein a wall about to collapse and he (Khidr) set it up straight. [Mûsa (Moses)] said: If you had wished, surely, you could have taken wages for it!"


78. (Khidr) said: "This is the parting between me and you, I will tell you the interpretation of (those) things over which you were unable to hold patience.


79. "As for the ship, it belonged to Masâkîn (poor people) working in the sea. So I wished to make a defective damage in it, as there was a king after them who seized every ship by force.


80. "And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.


81. "So we intended that their Lord should change him for them for one better in righteousness and near to mercy.


82. "And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the town; and there was under it a treasure belonging to them; and their father was a righteous man, and your Lord intended that they should attain their age of full strength and take out their treasure as a mercy from your Lord. And I did it not of my own accord. That is the interpretation of those (things) over which you could not hold patience."

 

[yoshiyahu]

So two things indicate it was Isma'il:
-'gentle son'

What other passages show that "gentle son" refers to Ishmael?

-Birth of Ishaaq is mentioned after the sacrifice and the brith of the other son is mentioned before, thus it must be Isma'il

IMO, whether or not Isaac and the gentle sons are different is a matter of interperetation - but that's not my area of expertise.

Is the Qu'ran always in exact order? (I.e. going in sequence, never referring to something before what was just talked about?)

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

What other passages show that "gentle son" refers to Ishmael?

I should have also mentioned that it means gentle/persevering.

Gentle son....
37:101 So We gave him the good news of a gentle boy.

Knowledgeable son...
15:53 They said: "Fear not! We give thee glad tidings of a son endowed with knowledge."

51:28 (When they did not eat), He conceived a fear of them. They said, "Fear not," and they gave him glad tidings of a son endowed with knowledge.

I can't think of any other verses at the moment.

But if you look at the passage I quoted, you will see that Isaac's birth is mentioned immediately after this event. And you can also look at the multiple reasons I quoted for you in the article.

IMO, whether or not Isaac and the gentle sons are different is a matter of interperetation - but that's not my area of expertise.

You are correct that it is not explicit, but what does that tell us? I think muslims and jews and christians are so caught up fighting over the details that they forget the moral of sacrifice depicted in the story.

Is the Qu'ran always in exact order? (I.e. going in sequence, never referring to something before what was just talked about?)

As long as it is the same story, same people, yes.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Is there a story of the rich man 'Qarun' in the Tanakh?

 

[yoshiyahu]

I think I might know of a story that goes with "Qarun". But it might not be him.

Could you give a URL to a summary of this character and the stories associated with him?

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

I don't know if he was rich, but a search revealed Qarun to be equivilent to Korah the levite, son of Isachar and the cousin of Moses and Aaron. He is remembered for the rebellious action together with Dathan and Abiram against Moses.

 

[Sinner]

I don't know about the Quran, but from the little there is in the Old Testament about Ishmael, it is unlikely that he could be called "a gentle son." Sarah saw Ishmael as a real threat to Isaac, and an Angel had warned her that Ishmael would grow as a man of violence.

Gen 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Gen 21:8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned.
Gen 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
Gen 21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Yes, I think Korah is the equivalent.

Here's Qarun's story:

Qasas 28

76. Qarun was doubtless, of the people of Moses; but he acted insolently towards them: such were the treasures We had bestowed on him that their very keys would have been a burden to a body of strong men, behold, his people said to him: "Exult not, for Allah loveth not those who exult (in riches).

77. "But seek, with the (wealth) which Allah has bestowed on thee, the Home of the Hereafter, nor forget thy portion in this world: but do thou good, as Allah has been good to thee, and seek not (occasions for) mischief in the land: for Allah loves not those who do mischief."

78. He said: "This has been given to me because of a certain knowledge which I have." Did he not know that Allah had destroyed, before him, (whole) generations,- which were superior to him in strength and greater in the amount (of riches) they had collected? but the wicked are not called (immediately) to account for their sins.

79. So he went forth among his people in the (pride of his wordly) glitter. Said those whose aim is the Life of this World: "Oh! that we had the like of what Qarun has got! for he is truly a lord of mighty good fortune!"

80. But those who had been granted (true) knowledge said: "Alas for you! The reward of Allah (in the Hereafter) is best for those who believe and work righteousness: but this none shall attain, save those who steadfastly persevere (in good)."

81. Then We caused the earth to swallow up him and his house; and he had not (the least little) party to help him against Allah, nor could he defend himself.

82. And those who had envied his position the day before began to say on the morrow: "Ah! it is indeed Allah Who enlarges the provision or restricts it, to any of His servants He pleases! had it not been that Allah was gracious to us, He could have caused the earth to swallow us up! Ah! those who reject Allah will assuredly never prosper."

83. That Home of the Hereafter We shall give to those who intend not high- handedness or mischief on earth: and the end is (best) for the righteous.

84. If any does good, the reward to him is better than his deed; but if any does evil, the doers of evil are only punished (to the extent) of their deeds.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Yes, obviously this contradicts the Qur'anic account. I would not accept this as true about Prophet Isma'il.


But even in the Bible, does it not mention the sacrifice of Abraham's only son?