Discussion about the Qur'an and the Bible

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: The Qur'an and the Bible

I do not know if the Quran speaks or not about the present day Bible.

We are quite aware that your knowledge of the Qur'an and the Bible is limited, as this post illustrates.

Is for example the Tawra from the Quran a part of the Bible or not ?

The Tawrât is what was originally revealed to Moses. While some parts of the original message may exist in the present-day Bible, much has been corrupted and altered.

My point is that the people who wrote the Quran mistakenly thought that the Bible writers believed that God could get tired and needed rest.

And I just refuted this point in my previous post, which you ignored. The Qur'an refutes any conception that God was tired after Creation which was a popular belief amongst many groups although modern day Christians and Jews no longer hold this view. This is what the quote from Dr. Ataie explains - that the Qur'an is not interested in refuting neo-christianity or whatever has evolved from that, but the specific deviant beliefs originally propagated. Besides, nowhere in the Qur'anic verses you cited does it make any mention of what is in the Bible. This is just an assumption on your part. The Qur'an doesn't care who believes that God has the human attribute of fatigue, it refutes the erroneous notion regardless.

Christians believe that Jesus is spiritually AND literally the Son of God. I don't know what you are refering to ? Christians have never claimed that Jesus was an ethereal being. He was conceived, grew in his mother's womb, and was born like any other child.

Clearly you are also not well informed about Christian beliefs either. No Trinitarian Christian today would dare claim that Jesus is the literal i.e. biological son of God. In fact Christians believe that the Son existed EVEN BEFORE THE HOLY SPIRIT CAME UPON MARY. They do not claim that the Son only came into existence when Mary became pregnant.

It is amazing that, not only must I remove your misconceptions about the beliefs of Muslims, but about the beliefs of Christians as well!

The story that all manuscripts from Muhammad's time were destroyed by Uthman may be a lie, but then where does that lie come from ? It is the first time that I see that story denied.

It is quite clear that you've been misinformed about the entire process. During Uthman's time, he ordered that only copies would be made of the manuscript that had been collected and recorded under the supervision of all the Companions. All unauthorised copies were to be burned to PREVENT circulation of copies containing errors. Thus, this event actually protected the Qur'an from alteration and corruption.

I still do not see any of those thousands of small texts written on various objects by the Prophet's secretaries.

This does not damage the Qur'an's preservation at all. These small scraps and texts were used to compile the first mushaf after which that became the authoritative copy. It is also important to note that even though the companions had all memorized the Qur'an by heart, they still set the lofty requirement of two witnesses for each verse, who had recorded that verse under the supervision of the Prophet himself.

Once again, it seems like you are speaking about a subject that you have very little knowledge of - the Qur'anic preservation. I would recommend that you adequately educate yourself on this subject first by reading the works I recommended earlier.

Regards

 

[mansio]

Re: The Qur'an and the Bible

Ansar al Adl

All we know about the writing and preservation of the Quran does not come from reports that were written down at the time of the Prophet, but from oral traditions that were collected and written down decades and sometimes centuries after Muhammad's death.
You have similar oral traditions put to writing in Catholicism and Mormonism. Does it make them historical facts that will make you believe in Catholicism and Mormonism ?
So we have no proofs that the companions had all memorized the Qur'an by heart, that the requirement of two witnesses for each verse was set, that every verse was recorded under the supervision of the Prophet himself. That looks more like holy legends made up to compensate the lack of documents.

What I have heard about Uthman's recension is that there are several different stories about it.
I still haven't seen a document from Muhammad's time. If only copies were burned, like the ones seen on the pictures I guess, what about all the pieces and scraps ?
Another question: why had copies to be burned ? Answer: because there were differently written Qurans in circulation, which gives a serious blow to the preservation theory.

Have you ever heard of the Christian dogma of Incarnation. Christians state that Jesus was 100% human and 100% God, all in one. It was the human part of Jesus that came into physical existence when Mary became pregnant and it merged so to speak with the godly Son from the Trinity.
Of course Jesus as God preexisted from eternity, that is the core of the Trinity.
When I said Jesus was not an ethereal being I was refering to the human part of Jesus.

The first time I came across the verse of the Quran that God was not tired from creating I immediately knew to what it was refering. I made me smile and I would have forgotten the seemingly naivety of it. But as there are other instances in the Quran with naive sayings, it gave credence to my first impression.
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MODERATOR: WHY ARE YOU AFRAID TO DISCUSS ISSUES ONE-BY-ONE? WHY PASTE A LIST OF ALLEGATIONS? ANOTHER COP-OUT OF A DEBATE?

If much in the Bible has been corrupted why do Muslims abundantly quote from it ?
I won't ask for proofs of corruption as Muslims have never showed any.
Let's not play on words with "corruption". It means that Jews and Christians had sacred scriptures, and in the course of history, someone (or a number of people) managed to change those scriptures. That is what is meant by corruption.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: The Qur'an and the Bible

All we know about the writing and preservation of the Quran does not come from reports that were written down at the time of the Prophet, but from oral traditions that were collected and written down decades and sometimes centuries after Muhammad's death.
You have similar oral traditions put to writing in Catholicism and Mormonism. Does it make them historical facts that will make you believe in Catholicism and Mormonism ?

Until you educated yourself there is no point in debating you. You are completely ignorant about not only the Qur'anic compilation and preservation but hadith methodology as well. You couldn't differentiate between an authentic hadith and a fabricated one if your life depended on it. Now I gave you the links and the resources from which to educate youself, so I have given you the opportunity to cure your ignorance. Whether you choose to do so, however, is entirely your decision.

So we have no proofs that the companions had all memorized the Qur'an by heart

Do you know anything about taraweeh? Every year in Ramadan, the imaam at ever masjid recites the ENTIRE QUR'AN VERBATIM before all the worshippers. Do you know anything about ijazaazah that people acquire in Qur'an? There are millions and millions of scholars who are part of an unbroken chain that leads directly to the Prophet, with specific NAMES. The companions taught the next generation who taught the next generation and so on, until today. Memorization of the Qur'an has always been the tradition of the Muslim community and it is one of the features of the Qur'an that distinguishes it from every other scripture in the world. I challenge you to tell me even one other scripture which has such a massive number of people who memorize it. There are members of this forum who have memorized the entire Qur'an, word-for-word, letter-for-letter. This tradition did not spontaneously arise in the Muslim community, it has been here since the beginning.

that the requirement of two witnesses for each verse was set, that every verse was recorded under the supervision of the Prophet himself.

This is something established in AUTHENTIC NARRATIONS. Since you have no education in hadith mehtodology, and have no qualifications as a Muhaddith, please excuse me if I discard your opinion on these narrations amongst the other conjecture you have advanced on this forum as though it were fact.

What I have heard about Uthman's recension is that there are several different stories about it.

I don't care what hearsay and rumous you have heard. They have no place in a SCIENTIFIC DISCUSSION BASED ON EVIDENCE.

I still haven't seen a document from Muhammad's time.

Now you have.

Another question: why had copies to be burned ?

Any copies that were not authorised were burned to ensure that copies were only made of the manuscript which was collected and confirmed by all the companions. I already answered this, but of course you weren't interested in the answer.

Have you ever heard of the Christian dogma of Incarnation. Christians state that Jesus was 100% human and 100% God, all in one. It was the human part of Jesus that came into physical existence when Mary became pregnant and it merged so to speak with the godly Son from the Trinity.
Of course Jesus as God preexisted from eternity, that is the core of the Trinity.
When I said Jesus was not an ethereal being I was refering to the human part of Jesus.

I know you need to make excuses up now to save face, but none of these points excuse you for the blunder you made, namely that you said:

Christians believe that Jesus is spiritually AND literally the Son of God

Christians do NOT believe that Jesus is the literal biological son of God.

The first time I came across the verse of the Quran that God was not tired from creating I immediately knew to what it was refering.

You mean you immediately ASSUMED as to what it was referring to. Well guess what, you may have ASSUMED wrong!

The statement that God was not tired is true and it refutes anyone who believes in that statement. It doesn't matter whether they are Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Satanists, etc. The Qur'an is only interestred in refuting this misconception.

Once again you are pasting all your alleged errors. Are you too afraid to discuss them with me one by one in the miraclesofthequran.com thread?

If much in the Bible has been corrupted why do Muslims abundantly quote from it ?

I already answered this.

I won't ask for proofs of corruption as Muslims have never showed any.

Another one of your lies. Read here:
Several articles available here

 

[mansio]

Re: The Qur'an and the Bible

To the moderator

I discussed issues one by one except that I did it in the REVERSE order.

Message #57:

Bible and Quran
Creation and rest
Jesus and Trinity
Quran manuscripts

My answer #58:

Quran manuscripts
Jesus and Trinity
Creation and rest
Bible and Quran

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: The Qur'an and the Bible

Pasting a list of alleged errors in the Qur'an does not constitute discussing them one-by-one but instead is a cop-out of a focused debate.

 

[mansio]

Re: The Qur'an and the Bible

Ansar

I'm not discussing about the preservation of the Quran after Uthman until today, but from the time of revelation to Uthman.

You know the argument that if a book says everything in it is true, it is not a proof that it is true.
So if you have hadith that say they are true, it is not a proof that they are true.
Hadith have been written at least 150 years after Muhammad and the isnad starters.

"Christians do NOT believe that Jesus is the literal biological son of God."
Why do you keep saying that ? Jesus (according to Christians) is the biological son of God. It is called the virgin birth !
The "fathering" agent is the Holy Spirit, that is God, and the mother is Mary.

If you want me to continue the miraclesofthequran thread I'll do it.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: The Qur'an and the Bible

I'm not discussing about the preservation of the Quran after Uthman until today, but from the time of revelation to Uthman.

I'm aware of that, and so far you haven't given any evidence to support your position,

You know the argument that if a book says everything in it is true, it is not a proof that it is true.

Proof? Considering the amount you've provided I'm surprised you even know the word.

So if you have hadith that say they are true, it is not a proof that they are true.

Hadith authenticity is not based on whether a hadith 'says' it is true or not. Please educate yourself.

Hadith have been written at least 150 years after Muhammad and the isnad starters.

Blatant lie.
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutat...ome-claims-regarding-ahadith-collections.html

"Christians do NOT believe that Jesus is the literal biological son of God."
Why do you keep saying that ? Jesus (according to Christians) is the biological son of God. It is called the virgin birth !

It is the Christians themselves who emphasize this point. If you want to debate go debate with them. They have written books and books saying that "The term “Son of God” is used in different senses in the Bible. But, never does it mean that God has a wife and produces offspring." and that "The term 'son of God' is symbolic, it does not mean that Christ is the biological off-spring of God as God does not have a spouse."

It is the MORMONS who believe that Christ is the literal biological son of God!

If you want me to continue the miraclesofthequran thread I'll do it.

Ther'es no point in continuing a discussion just for the sake of argument. In every single post you've given on the forum all you have done is make unsubstantiated claims and lies. No proof whatsoever. You just parrot claims like "Qur'an copied Bible" "Qur'an is book of fables" "Qur'an copied pagan myths" but you never give evidence to support anything. You're not interested in learning and finding out the truth about the Qur'an and the hadith. You even have the audacity to pass judgments on the hadith when you have absolutely no education on hadith methodology whatsoever. You arrogance is shocking!

A forum is a place for discussion. It doesn't work if one person simply is interested in voicing their personal opinions without listening to others. Too many times on this forum you have ignored our requests for evidence to support your unsubstantiated claims. If you continue to do so, you will be banned.

Regards

 

[Abu Zakariya]

Re: The Qur'an and the Bible

I saw all the bad faith you can have in the discussion about "tara'ib", a case where most Muslim translators were on my side.

Whoa. Talk about twisting the truth.