Indeed I did. Sorry to take so long to get back to it.:embarrass
Me too.
I've taken a while to get back to it also, been a bit busy.
Well, as I read what you have written (and other posts from the Muslim brothers and sisters) I can see that we also have a different understanding of the nature of sin. We basically agree as to what sins are, but we view how they impact us differently. For Christians they are much more than just wrong acts. In the way that Islam talks about the whole of life being one of Islam or not, so to the Christian views one's relationship with God. But the bigger problem is not with the individual details of what one does or does not do, but in the attitude from which those actions spring. As the Crucifixion is a way of dealing with sin, we need to be sure that we mean the same thing when we use this term. For the Christian it is more than just Haraam (though that is bad enough), the real problem is a sin nature that lies deep within each person's heart. This very nature has to be changed.
Ok lets see if I get you here. When we say someone is doing haram, it means they are doing something God prohibited, therefore disobeying Him. To disobey him is a sin. I assume it would be the same in christianity.
I'm not sure what you mean exactly by saying the 'attitude from which those actions spring', if you mean intentions, know that in Islam actions are judged by there intentions.
In regards to this nature of sin that mentioned, in Islam we believe that humans have in-built tendency to sin. This is how God has created us. In fact we are told that if we were perfect with regards to sinning (i.e. we never sinned) then God would have no use for us. Sinning is something that all people will do not matter what. This isnt something that can be changed. You cant make a person perfect, they will always sin. The objective is to reduce the amount of sinning a person does, and if a person does sin then they must turn to God in sincere repentence, and if they are granted forgiveness then they become like the person who never sinned in the first place.
Yes. Interjecting an anology -- often you may see Christians use a triangle as sort of a representation of this. A triangle has three sides, but it is just one triangle. And it is only completely a triangle when talking about all of the sides together, yet if one lives in the plane of the triangle, one can only see one side of the triangle at a time. So one might speak of side A, side B, or side C. But the reality is that each side is just one view of the triangle which is always a whole.
Yes I've read many such analogies, however I do find most of them to be rather shallow. I mean, it works nice for a triangle but not really for God. One side of a triangle can live independently of the other and change its identity to become a simple straight line. Can each part of God also go its own way? :?
I am not willing to admit that humans, when they are what God created them to be, are imperfect. I will readily admit that I am imperfect. I will admit that I have known no perfect people. But I believe that when God created Adam and Eve that God paused at the end of his acts of creation, "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good" (Genesis 1:31). This even though we know that there is none God except God alone. Yet that we were very good is God's own opinion of us (and all creation). I believe that is because at the time of creation we were in fact perfect.
Perhaps you need to define perfect? It is part of Islamic belief that only God is perfect. Being 'very good' falls very short of being perfect. And the fact that Adam and Eve did sin later on indicates that they always had the capicity to sin, so why are they perfect upon being created but imperfect upon being exposed to 'real life'? Being perfect would mean that they would have had the perfect response to the devil when he tempted them to sin.
It was as a result of the fall, when sin entered through disobedience, that we became imperfect. Christians believe that Jesus was born without this sin in his life. Thus, he was a perfect of a human being as were Adam and Eve. Only, unlike them, he lived a life of perfect obedience. So, there is no corruption for Jesus to be the perfect God in an imperfect human body, because he was in a perfect human body.
Muslims believe all humans are born without sin. There is no such thing as inheriting the sins of others in Islam, that would be an injustice.
i would also like to suggest that no, Jesus was not perfect or sinless, not even by the christian vesion of event. Upin death he said something like "Oh God, why have you forsaken me?" To say such is a big sin in Islam, a very big sin, to question God's wisdom and to show a lack of patience towards his decree. Had he been 'perfect' he would have known better than to question God's will. You will find in Islamic history many such cases where people were faced with very terrible situations as bad as crucifiction, and yet they never disobeyed God as such.
For example, one of the Muslims (a companion of the prophet pbuh) was captured by the enemy as a prisoner of war. Note that he wasnt even a prophet (let alone a God in the form of a human). The enemy wished to weaken him and they told him that if he doesnt give up Islam they will kill hom, but he didnt give up his faith. And then they got another Muslim prisoner and, in front of the companion, threw him into a pot of boiling oil, which was so hot that the prisoner later said that he saw the mans bones sticking out from his flesh. :muddlehea And then the enemy told him that this is what they would do to him if he didnt give Islam. But the man still refused. So then they took him and they were about to through him into the boiling oil and when he was aboce it he started to cry. So then the enemy thought they had finally made him crack so they didnt kil him and they put him done and they said to him something to the effect that 'we finally got to you'. And then he said to them, I wasnt crying out of fear, I was crying because I regreted that I did not have more lifes with which I could be sacrifice for the sake of God!
Subhanallah!! Now thats what I call faith! He didnt cry out to God and ask why he has been forsaken, no, he accepted God's will and was happy with it! And yet your "perfect son of God" wasnt perfect enough, not even in faith, to act in such a way! how is that perfection, let alone divinity?
hahahaha I was thinking of the very "rock" question you posed, before I even got to where you brought it up. The problem with it is that you are looking at just one side of the triangle. That Jesus (pbuh) choose to limit himself and live devoid of those powers, doesn't mean that they are not a part of his nature. When I play with my grandchildren, I could win any game I were to choose to win. But I don't. Not because I cheat and throw them the game (though, I've been known to do that too), but because I handicap myself to play only on my knees or in some other way. That doesn't mean that I'm not really taller or faster or have whatever other ability, but I elect to give up that ability for a time. I am not truly disabled. But I do not exercise all of my ability. I empty myself of the ability to jump higher and run faster, but of course they are still a part of my nature. But for the period of time that I am interacting with my grandkids they are not evident.
But you are talking about a physical advantage that you may have. Knowledge and wisdom arent something that you can give up. If you played against those kids a intellegence based game and the questin was asked, you would still know the answer better then them (assuming they very young kids lol). You can control that you know that 5+6=11 while they might not even know what 'plus' even means yet (at there age). And even if you did pretend you didnt know, it makes no difference, because you still know. So in the same way, how can God give up being all-wise and saying something like "why have you forsaken me?". Has he forgetten that this is his own plan that he is undertaking?!
I said that the people who received the message of the prophets strayed and continued to stay from God. I don't think that is different from your understanding. Are there not people who received the Prophet Muhhamed's (pbuh) message that still strayed from God? Are there not people who still continue to stray from God? I see no difference.
Oh ok, i thought you meant that the prophets (peace be upon them) strayed from the message. My mistake.
So, on that we are basically agreed. Except for I don't distinguish between major and minor sins. A sin is anything that separates us from God. Imagine an electrical connection. If the connection is broken, it doesn't matter if the break in the connection is a few millimeters or if it is kilometers. The current stops following. So too, the Holy Spirit (I know you don't believe in the concept) is God's presence following through our lives. But sin breaks that fellowship we were created to have with God. It doesn't matter the size of the sin. We can return to being obedient, but unless we repair the damage of that sin there will still be a break in the connection between us and God.
I dont think I really like that analogy as it assumes we need to be perfect to be 'connected' to God. Also, it doesnt distinguish between say, murder or disbelief in God, and say, a Muslim shaking hands with a member of the oppostie gender (we do not do this incase you didnt know). One sin is much more serious than the other, although yes both are sins, though if not forigen, the punishment for one sin is greater than the punishment for the other. And yes all sins remove us from God, but a bigger sin removes us more than a minor sin.
Of course, we have many role models too. All of the prophets you mentioned. But even more Jesus (pbuh). Because while the prophets committed these "minor" sins you speak of, Jesus (pbuh) didn't even do that. And given that he was also human, then he shows a way for the rest of us humans (if we get cleansed of our sins) to live a perfectly obedient life in follow connection with God just as he did.
See the above reference to why I dont think Jesus (the god version) was sinless or perfect.
I can try. Let's see what questions you have from what I have said here and then I'll take this and the following questions on. :happy:
I don't think so, but can we keep this question in reserve till we are sure we understand each other (not that I expect that we will agree) on the above issues being disucssed.
I really would like answers to these also!:happy:
I love it. You really challenge me to think. My son's girlfriend, asked some of these same questions today at lunch. You helped me to be better prepared. Thanks!! :thankyou:
lol ok no worries. Did she ask as many quesions as me?
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