Discussion with HinduIconoclast

[Proud of Islam]

Assalamu Alaikom wa rahmatollahe wa barakatoh, sisters & brothers..


((HinduIconoclast)) is a new member in our forum & he posted a thread in the (introduce yourself) section. However, since I am still a limited member, I can’t reply in that section. Therefore, I’ll copy his thread here & you all are welcome to participate in the discussion. I hope he will see the thread here; could anyone send a private message for him to tell him about our discussion here? Because again I am a limited member & I can’t send private messages..
Hope that you, HinduIconoclast, will not be annoyed for copying your thread and discussing it here..

His thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/introdu...laykum-brothers-sisters-respected-elders.html

Written by: HinduIconoclast
Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh, my dear brothers, sisters, and respected elders.

I was born into a Hindu family and practiced Hinduism throughout my childhood. However, later on I began to question my faith and after some research into Christianity, I became an Evangelical Christian at age 13. After about a year-and-a-half, I began to question my beliefs even more and after some more in-depth investigation into Hinduism, I reconverted back to Hinduism. After about eight or nine months, I began to investigate Islam and after some very in-depth research, watching videos of lectures by Dr. Zakir Naik, Khalid Yasin, Bilal Philips, and Ahmed Deedat, I adapted many Islamic beliefs, but I never accepted Quranic creationism (since I went back to believing in Darwinism after I left Evangelical Christianity). After about half a year, I left this Islamic belief system and went back to Christianity, this time a less fundamentalist belief system which agreed with Darwinian evolution and aligned most-closely with the Southern Baptist Convention. A while later, after even more research into Christian doctrine and finding the Christian concept of "God is love" very troubling, I went back to Hinduism. Now I am almost 17 years old and I follow a belief system which combines Islamic theology beliefs with Hindu jursiprudence. By that I mean that I believe in One formless God who created the universe, I believe in tawheed, I refer to God as Allah, I believe that practices such as: idol-worship, anthropomorphism of Divinity, astrology, fortune telling, card-reading, palmistry, etc. should be forbidden and its practicioners punished. However, the Hindu jurisprudence comes in because I believe in cremating the dead instead of burying them, I do not abstain from eating pork, I discourage circumcision, I do not think that women should be covered up by a hijab/burqa, etc.

Thank you.

Welcome, HinduIconoclast, in our forum and I hope that you enjoy staying in this family and benefiting from their thoughts.
Let me first encourage your efforts to reach the truth in this age; it’s really great to search deeply and use your mind to think, not just emulate what the grandfathers did..

It’s great that you believe in Allah Who is the right one God Who deserves the worship alone..
Believing all the concepts of (tawheed) as you said, includes believing the complete and full attributes of Allah. Since He is THE CREATOR, THE GREAT ONE, THE ALL-KNOWING, THE JUDGE, and THE TRUTH, the religion from Him (which is Islam) is also the truth and has the complete, full and right rules. We have to believe that it’s the truth even if our minds didn’t get some facts, because this is a problem of our intelligence & understanding, not in the religion itself!

About burying dead bodies, if you think about it, it is really kind of venerating the human being. I can’t imagine the hearts that accepts to see burning the loved people! When we bury dead people, we still can see the graves, visit them, ask for mercy from Allah to them, remember that we will be like them on one day and so we have to be good Muslims in order to be happy in the afterlife.. But if there is no graves, what will be the sermon and lesson that remind us?

Actually, the biggest evidence that we have to bury dead bodies is what came in the Holy Quran about the story of Adam's two sons. We know that Adam (peace be upon him) is the father of human & he is the first human being. When his son killed, he was the first dead person, and they still don’t know what to do in this new event..
Allah said in Soorat (chapter) Al-Maeda: [5:31] GOD then sent a raven to scratch the soil, to teach him how to bury his brother's corpse. He said, "Woe to me; I failed to be as intelligent as this raven, and bury my brother's corpse." He became ridden with remorse.
Therefore, from this we can know that burying is the habit of human being since this lesson from Allah..
And if you ask yourself, HinduIconoclast, about what MOST of people do either nowadays or in the past history, and what the abnormal thing that (some) people do, you will be able to realize the fact about what of them is the habit of human being.
I would like here to emphasize that Allah is ABLE to resurrect people whatever their kind of dead bodies. If they are buried, burned, sunk .. etc all of them will be resurrected to be asked about their deeds and rewarded or punished. As the Islam teaches us, we know that after we die, and after the life here will finish, every person will be in the paradise or the hell. Allah is fair, so the death of a person doesn’t mean that he will not be punished for all his mistakes and all the bad things that he did for the others. People who were poor, or ill should have reward for their endurance, as well as people who did good things if they are believers and Muslims. The life was not created for no goal, it is not just birth and death, it doesn’t end here. Everyone will be judged according to his deeds.

Returning to the burying issue, I’ll write some scientific benefits of burying that Dr. Zakir Naik said (as I copied it from http://www.islamicvoice.com/july.2004/od.htm)

1. Components of human body present in the soil
Elements that are present in the human body are present in lesser or greater quantity in the soil. Hence it is more scientific to bury a dead body, as it easily gets decomposed and mixed in the soil.
2. No Pollution
Cremating (burning) the dead body leads to pollution of the atmosphere, which is detrimental to health and harmful for the environment. There is no such pollution caused by burying a dead body.
3. Surrounding land becomes fertile
To cremate a dead body several trees have to be chopped, which reduces the greenery and harms the environment and the ecology. When dead bodies are buried, besides the trees being saved, the surrounding land becomes fertile and it improves the environment.
4. Economical
It is expensive to cremate a dead body when tons of wood has to be burnt. Annually there is a loss of crores of rupees, only because dead bodies are cremated in India. Burying dead bodies is very cheap. It hardly costs any money.
5. Same land can be utilised for burying another body
The wood used for cremating a dead body cannot be re-utilised for cremating another dead body since it gets converted to ashes. The land used for burying a dead body can be re-utilised for burying another body after a few years since the human body gets decomposed and mixed in the soil.

However, as I think, these scientific reasons are NOT greater than the reasons that I stated above.. I still can’t imagine the emotions after burning a loved person in the fire! May Allah save us from the fire in the life and also the hell in the afterlife..
About your opinion about eating porks, circumcision & hejab, I’ll write some comments about them later insha Allah.. I need to rest a little bit ^^
Hope that the others will share their thoughts..
&
Really hope for you to see the light, understand and reach the truth in Islam :sunny:


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Longing for the Paradise (Al-Jannah) where the endless happiness…

 

[Charzhino]

I still can’t imagine the emotions after burning a loved person in the fire! May Allah save us from the fire in the life and also the hell in the afterlife..

Why should a dead body be ''comforted'' anyway, the soul has escaped the vehicle of the body. All that remains is a heap of skin and bones which will degrade away in any circumstance.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Why should a dead body be ''comforted'' anyway, the soul has escaped the vehicle of the body. All that remains is a heap of skin and bones which will degrade away in any circumstance.

Would you be fine with a guy kicking your family member's dead body? It is after all a hunk of dead flesh.

It is a gift from God, even when you aren't using it.

 

[Charzhino]

Would you be fine with a guy kicking your family member's dead body? It is after all a hunk of dead flesh.

It is a gift from God, even when you aren't using it.

Kicking someones dead body on purpose is an insult for no reason. Comparing that with incincerating a dead persons body to let the soul out is completly different.

 

[Proud of Islam]

Kicking someones dead body on purpose is an insult for no reason. Comparing that with incincerating a dead persons body to let the soul out is completly different.

To let the soul out?!!

Are you the ones who let the soul out? :astagfiru

If the soul was still in the body, why did the person die?

He died because his soul was taken out after a command from Allah..

Did I get what you mean by "to let the soul out"? Or do you mean something else?


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Longing for the Paradise (Al-Jannah) where the endless happiness…

 

[Muslim Woman]

:wa:

...

Written by: HinduIconoclast...I believe in cremating the dead .... I do not think that women should be covered up by a hijab/burqa, etc.

I remember a revert story of a Hindu. His mother was very conservative . NO , she did not wear burqa but used to cover herself from head to toe.

After her death , when he ( that ex hindu) with brothers & other male relatives burnt the dead body , her clothes burnt first and all could watched the naked body . He was shocked . He thought , mom never came in front of my male cousins & other male relatives without veil but now all can watch her like this ?

It was a turning point for him , he started thinking about the way of treating the dead in other religions & finally accepted Islam

Wearing clothes properly is not that bad ...after all it's a gift from God Almighty : O children of Adam! We have indeed sent down to you clothing to cover your shame, and (clothing) for beauty and clothing that guards (against evil), that is the best. This is of the communications of Allah that they may be mindful[7.26]

 

[Charzhino]

To let the soul out?!!

Are you the ones who let the soul out? :astagfiru

If the soul was still in the body, why did the person die?

He died because his soul was taken out after a command from Allah..

Did I get what you mean by "to let the soul out"? Or do you mean something else?

From Wikipedia:

According to Hindu traditions, the reasons for preferring to destroy the corpse by fire over burying it into ground is to induce a feeling of detachment into the freshly disembodied spirit, which will be helpful to encourage it into passing to "the other world" (the ultimate destination of the dead).

 

[Proud of Islam]

Muslim Woman:
I liked the story.. In our Islam, before burying the dead, it's covered by white grave clothes.. So if they were Muslims, no man will see the body of his mom!

I'll go to pray now, my sis ^^
& I'll check the discussion later..

-----

Charzhino:

From Wikipedia:

According to Hindu traditions, the reasons for preferring to destroy the corpse by fire over burying it into ground is to induce a feeling of detachment into the freshly disembodied spirit, which will be helpful to encourage it into passing to "the other world" (the ultimate destination of the dead).

If we think logically, The True God (Allah) doesn't need an encouragement from people to pass the soul to "the other world" as you posted!
And if they believe in some other false god; something needs encouragement cannot be a god!! The God should be the most powerful & the able, Who is Allah..only..


I don't know whether you, Charzhino, believe on what you copy from Wikipedia. But I think that you're just talking about others because as in your replay:

Why should a dead body be ''comforted'' anyway, the soul has escaped the vehicle of the body. All that remains is a heap of skin and bones which will degrade away in any circumstance.

You said that the soul has escaped the body & skin and bones remains.. This means that you know that the soul went out even before the burning..


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Longing for the Paradise (Al-Jannah) where the endless happiness…

 

[Muslim Woman]

:wa:

Assalamu Alaikom wa rahmatollahe wa barakatoh, sisters & brothers..

...I hope he will see the thread here; could anyone send a private message for him to tell him about our discussion here? …

I informed him in his thread about this one , hopefully he will come here

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Cremating is bad for the atmosphere anyway and looks mad cruel...

 

[Charzhino]

Muslim Woman:
I liked the story.. In our Islam, before burying the dead, it's covered by white grave clothes.. So if they were Muslims, no man will see the body of his mom!

I'll go to pray now, my sis ^^
& I'll check the discussion later..

-----

Charzhino:




If we think logically, The True God (Allah) doesn't need an encouragement from people to pass the soul to "the other world" as you posted!
And if they believe in some other false god; something needs encouragement cannot be a god!! The God should be the most powerful & the able, Who is Allah..only..


I don't know whether you, Charzhino, believe on what you copy from Wikipedia. But I think that you're just talking about others because as in your replay:



You said that the soul has escaped the body & skin and bones remains.. This means that you know that the soul went out even before the burning..

Actually, reading over it now I shouldn't have said it helps the soul go. I said that because I heard it from some documentary, but it may be incorrect. I think the Hindus believe in 5 elements that make up the soul, one of them being spirit, which is different from the soul, so that last quote from wikipedia is the spirit descending, but still not sure.

 

[qarasz]

aSSALMU ALLIKUM.....................

ISLAM IS ALSO KNOWN AS NATURAL RELIGION.

1]HOW HE CAN SUPPORT DARWINISM....WHICH IS ALREADY A CLOSED CHAPTER..WHICH IS ABSOLUTE SCEINCE...

DARWIN SAID..LIVING THING GENERATED FROM GRAIN WHICH IS NON-LIVING....WHICH IS WRONG&

THEORY OF EVOLUTOION IS ALSO WRONG....(refer atlas of creation -harun yahya)


2] BURIAL =man is made out of mud....he should go to mud

3] ITS CLEARLY KNOWN THAT QUARN IS REVELATION OF ALLAH.

HE DOESNT NEED DEPEND OTHER BOOKS.../RELIGION

JAZAK ALLAH GHAIR

 

[HinduIconoclast]

Hindus bury their dead for two main practical reasons.
1. because land where people are buried cannot be reused where as the cremated ashes of a body can be spread anywhere (depending on the wishes of the deceased)
2. in an area where wood was cut down to build a funeral pyre the area would become deforested for further use

A religious reason would be that of the agnihotra. The agnihotra was a Vedic fire ritual/sacrifice (yajna) that was the only ritual that was supposed to be performed by the man of the house twice a day. This great importance given to fire probably led to or lent credit to the practice of cremation in Hindu India.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace;

... This great importance given to fire probably led to or lent credit to the practice of cremation in Hindu India.

why fire is so important for Hindus ? Does their holy book commands so ? If u have time , pl. explain Vedic fire ritual/sacrifice

 

[HinduIconoclast]

Salaam/Peace;

why fire is so important for Hindus ? Does their holy book commands so ? If u have time , pl. explain Vedic fire ritual/sacrifice

Yes, the Vedas tell Hindus that fire should be worshiped, etc. In fact, of the Vedic deities, Agni (fire god) is second only to Indra (king of heaven and the rain god) in popularity, veneration, and the amount of times that he is mentioned.

And the Hindu idea of worshiping nature was embodied by such Vedic deities who were each assigned to a different department (rain, fire, storms, sun, moon, wind, water, planets, etc.).

 

[Proud of Islam]

..... This great importance given to fire probably led to or lent credit to the practice of cremation in Hindu India.

In Islam, we consider fire as creation like any other creation that Allah created..
Some of what is in the Holy Quran about it:

Allah says in (Ya seen) chapter:
[36:80] He is the One who creates for you, from the green trees, fuel which you burn for light.


Allah says in (Al-Waaqe'ah) chapter:
[56:71] Have you noted the fire you ignite?
[56:72] Did you initiate its tree, or did we?
[56:73] We rendered it a reminder, and a useful tool for the users.
[56:74] You shall glorify the name of your Lord, the Great.



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Longing for the Paradise (Al-Jannah) where the endless happiness…

 

[HinduIconoclast]

Yes ProudOfIslam, that is a very good point.

The problem with the Hindus is that anything which logical people like us might take as a gift from God (light, the sun, water, etc.) because of its great importance to life, is seen by the Hindus as God himself. And since they believe that fire is God, they use their god to set their dead to rest.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

Yes, the Vedas tell Hindus that fire should be worshiped,

I heard lecture of Dr. Zakir . He said Hindus holiest book Vedas tell that there is only one God. So , how come the same book says fire should be worshipped ??? By any chance , it's a mistranslation / misquote ???

 

[HinduIconoclast]

Salaam/Peace

I heard lecture of Dr. Zakir . He said Hindus holiest book Vedas tell that there is only one God. So , how come the same book says fire should be worshipped ??? By any chance , it's a mistranslation / misquote ???

That is true, but the Hindus believe in one God in many forms. And those forms would be in the natural elements like fire. But the Yajur Veda also speaks about how only God is to be worshiped. These inconsistencies arise because the Vedas were from different authors, not by one man like the Qur'an was.

Dr. Naik also points out that Muslims believe everything is God's and Hindus believe that everything is God - and that is the major difference in the actual doctrine.

 

[Proud of Islam]

That is true, but the Hindus believe in one God in many forms. .......
Dr. Naik also points out that Muslims believe everything is God's and Hindus believe that everything is God - and that is the major difference in the actual doctrine.

It’s really a very important point…

Allah says in the Holy Quran(to make us believe on just One God Who is Him):
[23:91] GOD has never begotten a son. Nor was there ever any other god beside Him. Otherwise, each god would have declared independence with his creations, and they would have competed with each other for dominance. GOD be glorified; far above their claims.

I can see from your replies, HinduIconoclast, that you don’t believe in what Hindus say especially because you said in your first thread that you believe in (tawheed) & also I read your reply about the logic in the true Islamic beliefs, so I am really wondering about why you still believe in cremating the dead although in (tawheed) we know that the truth is one God, Allah, and He is the able to take out the soul at a specified time for everyone, without the need to burn the body by people. & Allah taught the human being how to deal with the dead bodies as I posted in the Adam’s sons story in the Holy Quran..

If you believe in that as I expected from your replies, let us move to discuss the other issues about eating porks, circumcision & hejab ^^


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Longing for the Paradise (Al-Jannah) where the endless happiness…