Do christians worship God (not Jesus)?

[Grace Seeker]

So I guess that should be the last time you use the Bible to justify your fundamental beliefs. My beliefs will be from scriptures alone(sola scriptura).
The Bible as God's written word is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader, its own interpreter ("Scripture interprets Scripture"), and sufficient of itself to be the final authority of Christian doctrine.

This is what the BIBLE may stand for.

Basic
Instructions
Before
Leaving
Earth

I'm trying to make sense out of this post and can't.

First, I've never seen Mustafa use the Bible to justify any of his beliefs as a Muslim. His use of the Bible seems to try to understand the beliefs that Christians (and/or Jews) hold so that he can better relate to them. And then also to engage Christians in serious debate with regard to their beliefs when they assert things as true that he doesn't see as being supported from the Bible, but perhaps more human interpretation than divine inspiration. I do both of these same things with the Qu'ran and Hadith.

Second, I would hardly label Mustafa's beliefs as being "fundamentalistic". Certainly he has some beliefs that are fundamental to him, just as you and I have some beliefs that are fundamental to us as followers of Christ, but using the term as the label it seems to have become in popular culture, I would say that one who declares the Bible to be "Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth" to be more fundamentalistic than a Muslim who is willing to make friends with Christians without insisting that they either convert to Islam or be treated as an infidel being the only options. Many a Christian could learn from that type of tolerance.

Third, a statement like: "I know of no sin or error that Jesus commited; however, I am in no position to judge whether any human being (including Jesus) was, is, or will be absolutely good," seems entirely reasonable to me for someone coming from outside the Christian perspective. They are simple statements of fact. Mustafa knows of no sin or error that Jesus committed. That doesn't mean that Jesus was sinless, but that he knows of no sin. And at face value, it doesn't even mean that Mustafa believes that Jesus was sinless (though he might), only again that he doesn't know of anything that he could testify of or point to where Jesus may have committed a sin. It is saying that so far as Mustafa knows from his own personal knowledge, he cannot articulate any sin that Jesus is known to have committed.

He also adds the qualifier that he is not in a position to be making judgements regarding anyone -- Jesus, you, me, his next door neighbor or a family member -- as to whether or not that individual is good. Why not? Well, if it is true what Jesus said that no one is good except God alone, then it would seem to follow that no one can really declare another to be good except God alone. As a faithful Muslim, Mustafa would never assert that authority in his own life, but would leave all such declarations in God's charge. And though I might disagree with Mustafa over many finer points of theology, this seems to be a pretty broad concept that I believe we can be in full agreement with one another be with Christian or Muslim (or perhaps any number of other faiths as well).

 

[Grace Seeker]

Do christians worship God (not Jesus)?

The indisputable answer to this question is that Christians undeniably worship Jesus, who they believe is God incarnate. Sometimes they pray to "the Father" and end the prayer "in the name of your son, Jesus, amen". Sometimes they pray to Jesus and end the prayer "in your name, amen". There is no disagreement that the Christian focal point is on Jesus, more specifically, on the ultimate sacrifice that he made on the cross for their personal salvation.

I have no argument with the concept that Christians worship Jesus. I know that I certainly do. But I wonder what would be the response if the converse of the question were posed: Do Christians worship Jesus (not God)? I suspect that many would think that by saying that Christians worship Jesus that this in itself is sufficient proof to say that Christians do not worship God, but that I do not believe would be an indisputable position, even if it is indisputable that Christians do worship Jesus. Speaking only for myself, I know that when I worship Jesus I understand that that I am, in fact, at the same time worshipping God. Hence, I could not affirm the question when presented as "Do Christians worship God, not Jesus?", nor could I affirm it if rewritten to ask do Chrisians worship Jesus, not God?", for I believe that in worshipping Jesus Christians are worshipping God and that in worshipping God Jesus is always included in that worship. Not to insult my Muslim friends, for I know it would seem shirk to them, but my own understanding is that anyone who worships God is (whether they realize it or not) also offering worship to Jesus even if they do not use his name.

 

[Muslim_4_Life]

The answer to whether christians worship Jesus or God is easily answered from a perspective of a non-muslim, or perhaps more accurately a muslim. Creation is finite everything in creation has a beginning and an end. Creation is started by Allah, this means that the finite has at it's origin an intelligence and power that is the greatest and also infinite. This simple fact lets us to no other conclusion that pantheism is a false and illogical belief. If Allah were part of creation then:

1. It would mean that He has a beginning and also an end. And this inadvertently means that

2. He would not be the most supreme, the allmighty, the most knowledgable etc. and that leads us to conclude that

3. He is also susceptible to disease and death

Astaghfirullah! May Allah ban such evil thoughts from our minds

The christian religion is based on the bible, a collection of books written over centuries by many different people most of whom never claimed to be divinely inspired by God, one particular person claimed to have written his gospel because they he others doing it and saw fit to embark on a similar task believing he could do a better job at it.

Not surprisingly because of this the bible is a book of contradictory statements, and falsehood. The oldest scriptures of the bible the ones used to write copies from in all the different languages of the world are in themselves 5 times the copy of the pressumed original. This means that there is no original scripture to be found, there is no way of checking the validity of the scriptures moreover the knowledge of christians today is lacking so much they do not study the scriptures in hebrew or even aramaic for as much as it is possible, and look at the striking evidence it still contains in support of Islam and the Qur'an. Rather they take the english and misinterpret it to their liking. To take an example is something someone asked earlier in this thread which came down to asking whether Jesus is good or not. The answer to this question is easy to answer because islamically the attribute of good belongs only to Allah. Allah is good but we only exhibit some of it's characteristics in our behaviour and it is subject to our own standard for determining what is good and what is not. So when Jesus is supposed to have said as is stated in the bible:

Luke 18:19

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."

It is understood that Jesus is negating the attribute of good and instead of answering the jew and telling him that he should worship Jesus, Jesus does something else He questions the remark with a rhetorical question. Notice that Jesus does not wait for an answer, he instead answers the question himself by saying none is good, save one, that is, God.

For those christians who still wanna insist that Jesus is not negating divinity (when he does so grammatically) I make the following example.

If someone were to come to me and say mr. president what do you think about this or that, and I would ask him rhetorically why do you call me president when only one is the president and that is the one ruling the country anyone with common sense will understand that I'm negating the suggestion of being a president and am in fact pointing out who is the only one deserving that title.

If it had been the aim of Jesus to have the jews worship him he could very easily have remained silent on this claim and instead simply have answered keep the commandments.

Thus remains the question was Jesus sinless. Well we muslims can at least say jesus was more free of sin as we know him in Islam than as he is known in the bible.

When we look at the bible it tells us God cannot be tempted, however we see something different when we look at matthew chapter 4 verses 5 through 8.

4:5

Then the devil took him to the holy city, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple,

4:6

and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you,' and 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"

4:7

Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"

4:8

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them;

Look at how Jesus is goes with the devil to the holy city. Clearly if by God it is meant Jesus than he was certainly tempted. And a second time Jesus is taken by the devil and tempted on a very high mountain. So does God hearken to the will of the devil when he wants to take Him around the world showing tempting Him with wordly splendour?

Consider the following, christians believe that Jesus is God, the son of God and the holy spirit. These three according to the christians are one, and equal to one another. The example was made earlier of the different states of water these being liquid, solid and gas and these being one and the same. In fact even if we go with this analogy this very much dissproves the concept of trinity because it suggests that when God is God He is not the son and/or the holy spirit, and when He is the son He is not God and/or the holy spirit and when He is the holy spirit He is not God and/or the son just like when water is liquid it is not solid and/or gas, and when it is solid it is not liquid and/or gas and when it is gas it is not liquid and/or solid.

So when christians are worshipping Jesus are they worshipping God? Against all evidences from the bible and common sense they may still choose to believe so however from an islamic perspective they are merely worshipping a man, a messenger of Allah and in doing so committing shirk which is the highest sin possible. Polytheism is forbidden in Islam and it is even forbidden in christianity, the first of the commandments is:

Exodus 20

1 And God spoke all these words:

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

So all people are called to have tawheed which means believing in the oneness of Allah and not worshipping anything besides Allah, for no one can share in anything with Allah.

This is the primary call to Islam and those that do not worship Allah as the only deity worthy of worship, who is the one and the only true deity who begets not nor is begotten, who has no one equal or supercede Him in anything are polytheists.

There is a great deal of evidence that Paul (Saul of tarsus) or the one speaking in His name (the uknown writer of the pauline gospels) introduced pagan elements in to christianity to make it more palatable to the romans. They have in their history also a God who came down as the son and sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind. He too was born on december 25th and there are many such commonalities with other pagan religions of the past. Alot of it comes from hinduism as well.

So the christians today unfortunately worship many things but not their creator Allah. They have even forsaken the calling of His proper name which is Allah but rather call Him yhwh or God which is not what Jesus called His creator. These are all pagan titles, it is however interesting to note that when Jesus was supposedly on the cross giving His last in moments of desperation he called out to Allah. the aramaic is Allah Allah lama sabachtani. Oh Lord oh Lord why hast thou forsaken me.

Another piece of evidence is the authentic rendering of what Jesus said in the bible when he prophecied of the coming of Ahmed the spirit of truth, the praised one who will guide mankind unto all truth and again not only prophecies the coming of the prophet Muhammed but also speaks of His creator Allah. Watch the 2 min clip from the passion of christ here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BTSG0YzlGB8

In conclusion Allah tells us in the Qur'an to call the people of the book (jews and christians) to the worship of Allah alone and no one else besides Allah. The evidence is for those who ponder much and seek the truth of Allah in sincerity. No one can guide a person but Allah, and no one can misguide but Allah. We have no power but we do as we are told by Allah for He knows what we don't know, and He knows what is best for us.

 

[SixTen]

Yes and no - this goes for all theistic religions.

All theistic religions believe in the ultimate creator - so to say.

In this sense, it would seem like they all follow the same God.

But is this really possible, if the people say God said different things? He could have only said one surely - so in that essense Islam follows a different God to that of Christians, because Christians believe God had begot a son for sacrificing - while Islam does not - so is it the same God? Or does one believe in a manmade God?

 

[Grace Seeker]

The answer to whether christians worship Jesus or God is easily answered from a perspective of a non-muslim, or perhaps more accurately a muslim. Creation is finite everything in creation has a beginning and an end. Creation is started by Allah, this means that the finite has at it's origin an intelligence and power that is the greatest and also infinite. This simple fact lets us to no other conclusion that pantheism is a false and illogical belief. If Allah were part of creation then....



Consider the following, christians believe that Jesus is God, the son of God and the holy spirit. These three according to the christians are one, and equal to one another. The example was made earlier of the different states of water these being liquid, solid and gas and these being one and the same. In fact even if we go with this analogy this very much dissproves the concept of trinity because it suggests that when God is God He is not the son and/or the holy spirit, and when He is the son He is not God and/or the holy spirit and when He is the holy spirit He is not God and/or the son just like when water is liquid it is not solid and/or gas, and when it is solid it is not liquid and/or gas and when it is gas it is not liquid and/or solid.

So when christians are worshipping Jesus are they worshipping God? Against all evidences from the bible and common sense they may still choose to believe so however from an islamic perspective they are merely worshipping a man, a messenger of Allah and in doing so committing shirk which is the highest sin possible.

So the christians today unfortunately worship many things but not their creator Allah. They have even forsaken the calling of His proper name which is Allah but rather call Him yhwh or God which is not what Jesus called His creator. These are all pagan titles, it is however interesting to note that when Jesus was supposedly on the cross giving His last in moments of desperation he called out to Allah. the aramaic is Allah Allah lama sabachtani. Oh Lord oh Lord why hast thou forsaken me.

See what I mean about it being disputable?

In conclusion Allah tells us in the Qur'an to call the people of the book (jews and christians) to the worship of Allah alone and no one else besides Allah. The evidence is for those who ponder much and seek the truth of Allah in sincerity. No one can guide a person but Allah, and no one can misguide but Allah. We have no power but we do as we are told by Allah for He knows what we don't know, and He knows what is best for us.

Good to know that if we Christians are wrong, at least it is Allah who has led us down this wrong path.

 

[Muslim_4_Life]

See what I mean about it being disputable?





Good to know that if we Christians are wrong, at least it is Allah who has led us down this wrong path.

It seems like you're mocking, but let me clarify the issue a bit here. it is quite logical to say none guides or misguides save Allah. Because nothing in this world happens without Allah's will or approval. I have had christians tell me that God did not create satan, or that satan is the creator of evil and God cannot create it. This is all very illogical, to give satan more prestige, more power than he really has. Creation is the will of Allah, and because Allah is not part of time and space as time and space are created by Allah than it follow logically that He knows all things whether they be in the past, present and future, and it befits His might that He is most able to allow and disallow what He wills. This does not negate free will on our part, we have been given the freedom to choose, and Allah knows all of our choices and He permits thereof what He wills and He prohibits from happening what He wills. It is not for mortal beings such as us to question Allah concerning what He wills. Because this is an obvious trap into asking other nonsensical questions such as many unbelievers have posed before concerning the majesty that is Allah and the unseen. How often do we find people with little knowledge mocking and laughing and asking where is Allah if He exists, or let Allah do this or that if He truly exists. What these people don't understand is that nothing they do reduces anything from Allah's majesty nor does it add to it. They are only mocking themselves but they do not realize it. So those who choose evil and do not repent and persist in their evil than Allah will surely increase for them what they have chosen to the point of no return, so they will never be able to go back and see the truth unless Allah wills for them to see. Similarly a person will choose what is truth and does not lie so much so that Allah will increase him in this and it will become natural for him to speak the truth. It's hard for non-muslim - at least in my experience - to understand and accept that all power resides with Allah alone and that no one can do anything, think, breath, live, die, laugh, cry, speak truth or lies except Allah permits it first. But it is your own choices, and those who think they will not be punished in this world and the hereafter for the evil that their mouths and hands have wrought they are sadly mistaken. So instead we should repent and learn from what comes to us of good knowledge.

The christians should leave this paganism business and purify their religion as all the prophets of Allah conveyed which is tawheed, first commandment. Anyone that invokes anything besides Allah whether it is a person, or an secular ideology or a thing such as money or a commodity such as oil, gold, real estate etc and they die in this state being slaves to these things rather than being a slave to Allah they will surely enter the hell fire and so it has been decreed. Islam means complete and total submission to the will of the only deity who alone is worthy of worship Allah. Jesus taught this, and the christians can find prove of this tantamount in their corrupted scriptures and in the perfect Qur'an. And every other prophet and messenger of Allah has come with this same message.

 

[snakelegs]

Yes and no - this goes for all theistic religions.

All theistic religions believe in the ultimate creator - so to say.

In this sense, it would seem like they all follow the same God.

But is this really possible, if the people say God said different things? He could have only said one surely - so in that essense Islam follows a different God to that of Christians, because Christians believe God had begot a son for sacrificing - while Islam does not - so is it the same God? Or does one believe in a manmade God?

wow - that's an interesting question i never thought about before!

 

[MustafaMc]

I have no argument with the concept that Christians worship Jesus. I know that I certainly do. But I wonder what would be the response of the converse of the question were posed: Do Christians worship Jesus (not God)? I suspect that many would think that by saying that Christians worship Jesus that this in itself is sufficient proof to say that Christians do not worship God, but that I do not believe would be an indisputable position, even if it is indisputable that Christians do worship Jesus. Speaking only for myself, I know that when I worship Jesus I understand that that I am, in fact, at the same time worshipping God. Hence, I could not affirm the question when presented as "Do Christians worship God, not Jesus?", nor could I affirm it if rewritten to ask do Chrisians worship Jesus, not God?", for I believe that in worshipping Jesus Christians are worshipping God and that in worshipping God Jesus is always included in that worship.

My understanding is that this is a reiteration of what I wrote earlier. Hence, I agree with you.

Not to insult my Muslim friends, for I know it would seem shirk to them, but my own understanding is that anyone who worships God is (whether they realize it or not) also offering worship to Jesus even if they do not use his name.

From your perspective, I can understand what you are saying because you see Jesus as a human manifestation of the One God. However, of course I disagree with the statement that "anyone who worships God...is...also offering worship to Jesus..." because we Muslims definitely distinguish between the two and in no sense of the word do we worship Jesus, the human who walked on earth nearly 2000 years ago. You may see that we worship the same God, but also say that we Muslims refuse to accept the "full manifestation" of God because we reject the divinity of Jesus. However, as you have acknowledged, we Muslims see the equating of Jesus with God as being undeniably shirk, or ascribing partners to Allah. Christians see the unity of three in the Trinity, but Muslims see their distinction in what may be called a "Trichotomy" with the One God, being distinct from both the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Note that I don't mean in the sense of opposites here, but of distinctness.

From Wikipedia:
A dichotomy is any splitting of a whole into exactly two non-overlapping parts.
In other words, it is a bipartition of elements. i.e. nothing can belong simultaneously to both parts, and everything must belong to one part or the other. They are often contrasting and spoken of as "opposites."
New word:
A trichotomy is any splitting of a whole into exactly three non-overlapping parts.
In other words, it is a tripartition of elements. i.e. nothing can belong simultaneously to the other two parts, and everything must belong to one part or the other.

 

[MKE Brother]

I grew up Roman Catholic and one (of quite a few) of my problems with it was the polytheistic vew of the trinity. Far too much emphasis on the prophet Jesus. Allah has now shown me the way, I believe it is others who are misguided.

 

[mkh4JC]

Consider the following, christians believe that Jesus is God, the son of God and the holy spirit. These three according to the christians are one, and equal to one another. The example was made earlier of the different states of water these being liquid, solid and gas and these being one and the same. In fact even if we go with this analogy this very much dissproves the concept of trinity because it suggests that when God is God He is not the son and/or the holy spirit, and when He is the son He is not God and/or the holy spirit and when He is the holy spirit He is not God and/or the son just like when water is liquid it is not solid and/or gas, and when it is solid it is not liquid and/or gas and when it is gas it is not liquid and/or solid.

While you can try to explain the Trinity this way or any number of ways, this is how I do so using a verse in the Old Testament no less:

'And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth on the earth.' Genesis 1: 26.

Therefore: God=The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, human beings=the spirit, the soul, and the body.

 

[Grace Seeker]

While you can try to explain the Trinity this way or any number of ways, this is how I do so using a verse in the Old Testament no less:

'And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth on the earth.' Genesis 1: 26.

Therefore: God=The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, human beings=the spirit, the soul, and the body.

Fedos, while I agree with your final statement, in fairness to the truth I think we must admit that the passage cited, Genesis 1:26, (although it does indeed use plural in referring to God) is not the best passage to use as a prooftext for the Trinity. The reason is that the Hebrew term employed herein is being used more like the "royal WE", simlar to how a king/queen might say "WE" when speaking of him/herself, and is not meant to be understood by its original Hebrew audience as a true plural personal pronoun. Of course, that fact doesn't disprove the Trinity, but to prove it we Christians are better off referencing other passages.

I grew up Roman Catholic and one (of quite a few) of my problems with it was the polytheistic vew of the trinity. Far too much emphasis on the prophet Jesus. Allah has now shown me the way, I believe it is others who are misguided.

I'm sorry to hear that you received a polytheistic understanding of the Trinity within the Catholic Church. That certainly is NOT what the Catholic Church (or any other Christian church that ascribes to historic, orthodox Christian theology) teaches. There is a significant difference between the tri-theism which you apparently experienced and a correct view of the Trinity which understands that there is one and only one God who exists in three seperate and distinct persons (something close to, but not exactly, what Mustafa means with his definition of trichotomy), but is yet one being.

Another apparent misunderstanding of the trinity, based on some of the other above comments, is that it involves God existing as a finite being or as a created being. Such an understanding is a terrible corruption of the actual understanding of the incarnation, which involves the creator putting on corruptable flesh, yet not being corrupted by it, but rather redeeming all who are a part of that corruption. So, it is really quite the opposite of what some seem to infer from it. While it may not make sense to all, we Christians do not believe that God is so limited that he cannot do what seem impossible to the human mind.

 

[Grace Seeker]

It seems like you're mocking, but let me clarify the issue a bit here. it is quite logical to say none guides or misguides save Allah.

I don't have a problem with the overall concept that none guides or misguides save Allah. Certainly, the Christian concept of the sovereignty of God is a very close parallel. I'm just saying that if you hold strongly to Surah 14:4...

So Allah leads astray those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases and He is Exalted in power, full of wisdom

...then, we have to note that there is only one actor in the process of any human's salavation who actually gets to make a choice, and that actor is Allah.

A person can be a devout Muslim and go to hell or a incorrigible pagan and go to paradise. It is, as you say, according to Allah's will and not your will or my will. So, if it be Allah's will that I should be led astray to believe what I believe, then why the great protest? Apparently Allah has set a seal on my heart and on my hearing. And on my eyes as well. No doubt, great will be my chastisement (Surah 2:6-7), but if this is what Allah's will is for me, then what human being has the power to change it? Surely you would not say that Allah is wrong and seek to change my fate? No one has the power to change what Allah has already decided. From my conception, my fate has been in the hands of Allah. I can live with that.

The christians should leave this paganism business and purify their religion as all the prophets of Allah conveyed which is tawheed, first commandment. Anyone that invokes anything besides Allah whether it is a person, or an secular ideology or a thing such as money or a commodity such as oil, gold, real estate etc and they die in this state being slaves to these things rather than being a slave to Allah they will surely enter the hell fire and so it has been decreed. Islam means complete and total submission to the will of the only deity who alone is worthy of worship Allah. Jesus taught this, and the christians can find prove of this tantamount in their corrupted scriptures and in the perfect Qur'an. And every other prophet and messenger of Allah has come with this same message.

One of the reasons I can live with my fate being placed in the hands of Allah, is that you are right I do have a different understanding of who Allah is than you do. You may, as I have acknowledged above, call it shirk, but I believe that God is not a fatalistic creator. Rather, I believe that God, especially in his sovereignty, has given a degree of freedom to humans to make individual decisions of their own will and to do so with freedom to accept or reject him as Lord of their lives. That is, each person ultimately chooses for themselves to say (or not say) to God, "let your will, not mine, be done in my life".

Submission can only be truly submissive if it is voluntary, not something chosen for you by another. Only pagans are fatalists. Christians are not fatalists. And Christians are not pagans.

Christians believe that God allows us to make the choice to go our own way, after our own will and desires (and thus try to live as if we were "god" of our own lives) or to submit to God's will for us. When we make the later choice we place our lives into his hands, trusting in him. This act of trusting, not the act of ascribing to a certain set of beliefs, is what Christians really mean by faith. As such, we Christians believe that God has acted in Jesus Christ to accomplish something for us that we could never accomplish for ourselves. We believe that no amount of good works, right words, or proper/moral behavior would be sufficient to guarantee us a spot in heaven. But we do believe that Jesus' work on the cross is sufficient to open the door to heaven to all who would receive it. It is only necessary to trust in that offering of Jesus' life in our place to receive, even now in this life, the promise of heaven and a life eternally attached to God. No Roman or other form of paganism ever offered such a promise, and it is trusting in that promise which is at the heart of the Christian faith.

So, I trust that in Christ's work Allah is himself accomplishing for me something which I could never accomplish on my own. Whether I am right or wrong in that act of trusting, it is into Allah/God's hands that I place myself in total trust that has already acted to redeem me (in Jesus' life and death and resurrection) and that because of this act of redemption he will ultimately take me to himself in paradise.

 

[MustafaMc]

The previous 2 posts reflect a high level of understanding of the Islamic faith and it states the Christian faith in a understandable way. While reading, the following passage came to my mind.

Qur'an 5:116-119 After reminding him of these favors, Allah will say: "O Jesus son of Mary, Did you ever say to the people, "Worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?" He will answer: "Glory to You! How could I say what I had no right to say? If I had ever said so, you would have certainly known it. You know what is in my heart, but I know not what is in Yours; for You have full knowledge of all the unseen. I never said anything other than what You commanded me to say, that is to worship Allah, Who is my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them; but when You called me off, You were the Watcher over them and You are a Witness to everything. If You punish them, they surely are Your servants; and if You forgive them, You are Mighty, Wise."

The fate of each of us is in the Hands of Allah. May Allah guide those who seek guidance and forgive those who strive to submit their will to His.

 

[mkh4JC]

Fedos, while I agree with your final statement, in fairness to the truth I think we must admit that the passage cited, Genesis 1:26, (although it does indeed use plural in referring to God) is not the best passage to use as a prooftext for the Trinity. The reason is that the Hebrew term employed herein is being used more like the "royal WE", simlar to how a king/queen might say "WE" when speaking of him/herself, and is not meant to be understood by its original Hebrew audience as a true plural personal pronoun. Of course, that fact doesn't disprove the Trinity, but to prove it we Christians are better off referencing other passages.

Oh ok, I didn't know that. I knew that it was plural, but I didn't know what you just described. I'll keep that in mind for future reference.

 

[john316]

I don't know about you guys but I knw of a woman who died. The relatives were mourning for her for abt 12 hours until a chrisitian missionary who have prayed in the HOLY SPIRIT to GOD in the name of JESUS and by the power of prayer she was raised from the dead. PRAISE THE LORD!!!

Christ is the only hope for salvation. And salvation is a gift from God not earned. We believe in a personal relationship with God which can save us.

 

[Umar001]

Do Christians hold that Satan can decieve people?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Do Christians hold that Satan can decieve people?

If I'm notwrong, he deceived Eve and even tempted Jesus.

 

[MKE Brother]

If I'm not wrong, he deceived Eve and even tempted Jesus.

Yes, correct on both counts

 

[Grace Seeker]

Do Christians hold that Satan can decieve people?

Sure. And, as pointed out, he has. But we also hold that "no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, 'Jesus be cursed,' and no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3).

I'm not sure if your question is related to John316's story about the woman being resurrected or not. But in case it might be, even though I have never myself been witness to such a thing, I want to affirm that it is God, not Satan, who is in the business of doing resurrections.



I'm going to post a link here, one I understand may need to be deleted, (if so, I accept that, I just ask that you read it before making that decision), that I think posses some interesting questions regarding the connection between what God is doing in Jesus and in humanity from a cosmological perspective. I post them because the comment about the woman's resurrection made me think of the Biblical story of the resurrection of Lazarus which is referred to in this article.

 

[Eeman]

Lool, can't disagree with you there,
However i have always wondered why are people so ashamed when doing there business, that they have to lock themselves up in private areas. To show how perfect the act is?

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!
Sorry I just found that hilarious!