I agree with you, GraceSeeker. We each believe that we have the Truth and the other is in error. One thing for us Muslims to remember is that Christian who come to this forum are under constant attack that their beliefs are wrong, as I myself have done my fair share to point out what I see are errors in Christian doctrine. Yet some Christians have persisted in staying here, apparently because they believe that they are doing some good to build a common understanding with Muslims. Although I don't agree with some of their beliefs, discussion on this forum has helped me to see where they are coming from in their understanding. I admire several Christians for their patience and courtesy in sharing their beliefs.
Do christians worship God (not Jesus)?
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glo
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Those are kind words, Mustafa.
Thank you.
I have the benefit of being part of a Christian forum too, and I spend a fair bit of time in the Comparative Religions forum there.
There, non-Christians complain about being bombarded by Christian evangelising, rather than it being respected that they have different beliefs!
There, too, Christians complain about non-Christians being allowed to promote their own faith, when it is, after all, a Christian forum!
The experience has greatly helped me to see things from both perspectives.
I guess people could visit forums of a different religion to their own for several reasons:
- They want to explore another faith, perhaps even with the possibility of converting.
- They want to evangelise their own faith.
- They want to build bridges and improve understanding between the faiths.
I have learned that heavy-handed dawah/evangelising is really entirely ineffective!
People from group 1 are more likely to look in those sections which explain the religion they are interested in (in this case 'Learning about Islam')
People from group 2 are likely to dive head-first into the debate, allowing it to escalate into a heated argument pretty quickly ... which often leaves both sides hardened, and even less likely to attempt to see each other's point of view.
People from group 3 are likely to simply ignore it and walk away from something that it pointless. We can only try to talk about our faiths, when the other party is genuinely interested in listening, and open to hear views which they may strongly disagree with.
The funny thing is that somebody who is as eager and zealous to make Christians see the 'error of their ways' as Suffiyan, may have exactly the opposite effect on his listeners. So instead of getting people interested in Islam, he is more likely to put them off ...
I have learned more about Islam in harmonious exchanges with people like yourself, which allow both parties to equally express their beliefs, than I will ever learn from confused bombardments of ill-constructed posts, which sometimes don't seem to make any sense at all ...
I find that those meaningful exchanges are often better made easier via PM, rather than in the public forums, where they can be escalated so easily ...
Salaam
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suffiyan007
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i am not picking on someone or find fault with someone.i just give my opinion and explaination between Islam and Christian.... for the sake of Allah. I do respect on people religions and I just explained what was in Islam and Christian.I dont care who side who...! is my job to complete my mission as muslim or caliph of Allah..to give a short Dakwah...to people.I am doing my path to the way of Allah. I didnt Force people to believe me. I am just corrected my iman/faith to God. i dont wanna know who religion is right or wrong..? i just wanna ask why in christian trinity concept.
<<< God is Father,God is son, God is Spirit>>>. to make it clear....Why should a God transform be Father and Son to human,and transform back to Spirit as origin..be God back..! are these God transform to be Batman,superman,spider...after that transform to the origin..Quite funny...For a God to enter the Earth need time and space for him to enter..if God success to enter the Earth there will be earthquake,and hurricane...does it make sense?
<<< God is Father,God is son, God is Spirit>>>. to make it clear....Why should a God transform be Father and Son to human,and transform back to Spirit as origin..be God back..! are these God transform to be Batman,superman,spider...after that transform to the origin..Quite funny...For a God to enter the Earth need time and space for him to enter..if God success to enter the Earth there will be earthquake,and hurricane...does it make sense?
Suffiyan007;968514i dont wanna know who religion is right or wrong..? [B said:
God is triune in nature and yet still one, just as we human beings are triune in nature and are still one. Let's look at a verse in the Old Testament:
'And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the firsh of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.' Genesis 1: 26.
So we as human beings are made in the image and likeness of God; and because we are triune and nature and yet are still one, so too is God. So our very makeup testifies to the Trinity.
You can also look at verses like this in the Old Testament:
'The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.' Psalms 110: 1. Which Jesus referenced to the Pharisees here: 'Saying, What think ye of Christ? Whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, til I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.' Matthew: 22: 42-46.
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Suffiyan, your question assumes many things that are not actually a part of our understanding of the Trinity. Among the things that you assume that are NOT true are the followinng:
1) That God is being transformed from one thing to another.
2) That God becomes a part of time and space simply because he enters it.
3) That the incarnation of God in Jesus makes him a limited finite being.
4) That the incarnation of God would be a destructive event bringing calamities to the earth.
None of these ideas that you think are a part of or would be consequences of the Trinity are actually held to be true by Christians. Hence your questions and objections to it don't make sense to us. That's not a personal attack on you, I find it often true that those who object most vocifierously against the Trinity often do so on points that aren't actually a part of proper understanding of what is meant by speaking of God in trinitarian terms. How can I help you to understand our meaning better? Do you actually want to understand? If so, I am willing to do my best to explain what we mean by it and how it helps us to better understand who God is and how he acts in this world.
suffiyan007
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Serene, i agreed. i am getting tired of explains to people...Serene..! thanks for your help..haha. trinity<<<GOD IS FATHER,GOD IS SON,GOD IS HOLY SPIRIT>>>>
Brother I know what the Trinity is, I studied it at A Level in college. Your concept is incorrect.
The trinity is:
The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God
Not the way you said it.
The way the Christian priests try to explain the trinity is not very clear, and there are gaping holes in it. They say that it is like a Water molecule [Solid, Liquid Gas] it has 3 different forms. However this can be refuted by saying that although [by their saying] God takes 3 different forms, the concept is still not correct.
This is because when water takes form of a solid/liquid/gas, the properties of the water remain the same. However if God changes His form to a human, he would have to eat, drink, take medicine and human stuff to stay alive. He is a Unnecessary being. This is in contradiction with the properties of God because He is an Necessary being, He does not need anyone or does not depend on anyone.
Hence, the contradiction.
Btw, the above explanation is from a Dr. Zakir Naik lecture.
The trinity is:
The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God
Not the way you said it.
The way the Christian priests try to explain the trinity is not very clear, and there are gaping holes in it. They say that it is like a Water molecule [Solid, Liquid Gas] it has 3 different forms. However this can be refuted by saying that although [by their saying] God takes 3 different forms, the concept is still not correct.
This is because when water takes form of a solid/liquid/gas, the properties of the water remain the same. However if God changes His form to a human, he would have to eat, drink, take medicine and human stuff to stay alive. He is a Unnecessary being. This is in contradiction with the properties of God because He is an Necessary being, He does not need anyone or does not depend on anyone.
Hence, the contradiction.
Btw, the above explanation is from a Dr. Zakir Naik lecture.
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ICE is a form of water just as Jesus is a form of GOD. Jesus has the same nature as the Father and the Holy Ghost. Ice is not a fluid. unlike water and water vapor. It is a solid. Ice has the same formula as that of water and water vapor.
Ice is H20
Water is H20
Water Vapor is H20
but it's all in all one formula. H20
Grace Seeker
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Does something have to be mentioned by name in the Bible to be realistic? Think of all the very real things that are not mentioned in any religion's set of scriptures. What scriptures mention atoms, photons, quasars? What scriptures mentions environmental warming? What scriptures mentions the countries of Saudia Arabia, Maylaysia, Great Britian, or the United States? What scriptures mention cars, television, airplanes, or the internet? Yet all of these things are real. We have observed all of these things and by observation we know them to be real. And having observed them we then have created names to identify what it is that we have observed.
The same thing is true with regard to the Trinity. It is just a name. Christains observed that God was known to them as Father. This is clear because Jesus himself taught his disciples to address God as "our Father". Of course, Jesus as not the first to call God "Father", it was a common way of speaking of God during the rabbinic period of Judaism in which Jesus lived.
Then they observed that God was known to them as a Spirit who was present in their lives. This is the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised to send his followers. And this concept of God as Spirit was not foreign to monotheistic Jews either, for there are references to the Spirit of God all the way back to the writings of Moses and especially in the Psalms of David and even more in the later prophets.
And then this Spirit of God revealed to them that Jesus also was God, only incarnate among them. That did require a shift in one's understanding of God, but it was not so strong a shift as to imagine that there was more than one God. There was still just one God, but God was known to them in three distinct persons. They had no name for it, yet is was something that they really observed. And today we can still observe this very truth to be present and revealed to us in the pages of the Bible.
No, the word Trinity is not to be found in the Bible. But what is found in the Bible is that God has made himself known to us in these three persons. Having both observed and experienced it in their own lives the disciples never did give a name to it, but they testified repeatedly to the truth of it. It would be a later generation that would suggest a name to describe the totality of this experience in a single word "trinitas" which we translate into the word "Trinity".
So, we don't need to find the word in the Bible for it to be true. It is merely a name identified something that we already know to be true, no matter what name one uses to describe it.
BTW, those that seek to explain the concepts identified in the term Trinity with analogies, be those with references to water, an egg, or something else are not trying to say that there are 100% parallels. They are analogies and nothing more. They teach about one (or perhaps a few) aspects of the Trinity, but they in no wise reveal all of its truth. They will break down for the very simple (and hopefully obvious) reason that they are finite illustrations of an infinite being. There is no way that they can speak all of the truth regarding God. Nor are they intended to. If one tries to make the illustration explain some aspect of God different than what it is intended to explain, the fact that the illustration fails to do so, does not reflect on the truth of God's character at all, on that any one illustration can only go so far in attempting to explain the nature of God who by his very nature of being God is beyond the comprehension of humankind.
Keltoi
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The best way to understand the Trinity concept is to look at it in terms of personality. Three ways in which God's Will is manifest on Earth. It is described in terms of The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit because that is what we as Christians believe to be true. There is only One God, who became manifest in the flesh in the form of Jesus Christ, and whose will can reside within us in the form of the Holy Spirit. All three aspects are of One God, One God who interacts with His people in different ways.
Greetings john316,
How can Jesus (AS) have the same formula as The Father? I'm sorry but you didn't read my post correctly. They cannot have the same formula as they have different properties!
- One is a Necessary being and the other is not.
- One needs to eat and drink, the other does not.
- One needs to satisfy desires (no offence), the other does not.
- One gets sick, the other does not.
- One grows and ages, the other does not.
- One is in the time realm, the other is not.
See the contradictions?
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Grace Seeker
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I see that you have defined necessary and unecessary beings. I suggest that Allah is a necessary being as we all need Allah. So, I think your definitions are off. I'll await your thinking on that suggestion before addressing some other ideas you expressed that I also think are misconceptions of the nature of God.
Greetings Keltoi,
Why would a God, All Knowing, All Seeing, etc. NEED to manifest in the form of Jesus and Holy Spirit? He is the one who created us, so He knows what is best for us without taking forms of humans and animals.
E.g. (Another Dr. Zakir Naik example); If a person makes a video player, he will know what is right and wrong for the video player and for the person who does not know about it, he would write an instruction manual for them. The creator of the video player would not need to become the video player to see what is good/bad for it.
The same way God has given us the Qur'aan, which is our instruction manual.
Greetings Grace Seeker,
I'm sorry I got confused, it has been a couple of years since I studied this! Yes, Allaah is a Necessary Being, whilst we are Unnecessary. We depend on Him, He is dependant on no one.
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God doesn't need those things, we as human beings need God. That is why Christ was sent to us, because we needed Him, not the opposite. Same goes for the Holy Spirit. It doesn't need us, we need it.
As for Dr. Zakir's analogy, it doesn't make sense in the Christian context. Jesus Christ did not need to know what was sinful, He paid the price for our sin.
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Yes, but why would God bring himself so low (excuse my choice of words), that he needed to appear in human form? I am sure God has plenty of other ways to help us?
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Because we as human beings are incapable of earning our salvation alone. There had to be an atonement. That atonement came in the body of Jesus Christ.
I'm sorry that does not make any sense either. The atonement bit. Why would Jesus die on the cross to atone for our sins? Would it not make much more sense that we be held accountable for all our actions; be rewarded for good ones and get punished for bad ones? Isn't that the whole purpose of life that makes sense? That life is a test and you will get rewarded and punished according to the deeds that you do?
P.S. Please excuse me if you do not get prompt replies to your post, I might have to go away from the computer inabit.
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Keltoi
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From a Christian standpoint, nothing we do can earn our place in Heaven. It is only God's mercy that allows us to achieve salvation. God's mercy came in the body of Jesus Christ, who paid the ransom for sin. That doesn't give Christians free reign to sin at will, it only gives us the opportunity to achieve salvation through faith in Christ and a life dedicated to God.