Do Muslims believe the original Bible is the word of God?

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But the saddest part of it all, is that your eternity hinges on this most crucial fact of history, that Jesus died for our sins. If He didn't, you have to pay for them. If He did, and you reject that, you'll have to pay for them. It is not the disciples and historians that were deceived. It is YOU if you believe He didn't die for YOUR sins. Peace
I thought God was just. If Jesus died for 'our sins' then God injustly punished him. And about Jesus' "death" from what I know (I may be wrong), Judas was made to look like Jesus and it was he who was crucified.
 
By the way, my previous post would seem to be off-topic but I felt I had to follow up the post I was responding to. Perhaps someone should start a new thread, such as, Did Jesus die on the Cross? and move the posts that relate to that over to that new thread. Just a thought.

Peace
 
I thought God was just. If Jesus died for 'our sins' then God injustly punished him.

God is just. That means He must punish the guilty. But He is also love, and He is merciful. His being just would mean we (who are all sinners) must be punished for our sins. His mercy cannot simply overlook our sins. Our sins must be punished. But God in His great love for us, "laid on Him the iniquity of us all" (Isaiah 53:6). So HE was punished for OUR sins. 2 Cor. 5:21 says, "For He [God] made Him who knew no sin [Christ] to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 1 Peter 2:24 says, "[Christ] Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness..."

Now, at first glance, that would seem unjust of God to lay on Christ all OUR sins, when Christ was Himself sinless. But it was Christ Who voluntarily took on the role of our sin-bearer, knowing it was the only way any of us would ever be able to escape the punishment due us for our sins.

He said, "...I lay down My life for the sheep. Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.'' (John 10:15, 17-18). He also said, "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.'' (Mark 10:45)

We sinners don't want the justice of God---that would put US in hell forever. We want His love, mercy, and forgiveness. But that mercy and forgiveness is all based on payment for our sins having been made by Christ. Without His payment, we have no way around God's justice which spells our eternal doom because it requires punishment for our sins.

And about Jesus' "death" from what I know (I may be wrong), Judas was made to look like Jesus and it was he who was crucified.

No, Judas wasn't crucified; he hanged himself after realizing he had betrayed innocent blood:

Matthew 27:
1. When morning came, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put Him to death.
2. And when they had bound Him, they led Him away and delivered Him to Pontius Pilate the governor.
3. Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4. saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.'' And they said, "What is that to us? You see to it!''
5. Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Peace
 
No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.
Is it a command or optional?


And only the bible tells of Judas' suicide after Jesus' death. Do you have any other evidence for his sucicidal death?
 
bismillah

Firstly, the Bible was not revealed as it is. The Bible (biblia) is just a simple word for "books". That serves to present the collection of books from Genesis-Revelation as "the Bible."

Firstly, we must remember that the original language of the Bible, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek (Koine).

Secondly, let us call it what it is: the injil (gospel) was revealed to Jesus (as) "orally". His followers were not his scribes as the followers of Muhammad (saw).

Thirdly, the early Christian community relied heavily on books, however, amny were illiterate and from the poor. Many copiers were not adept in writing either. A book could be considered to be read by someone, if it was read to them by someone else.

Fourthly, most of the message that Jesus (as) brought was lost and indiscernable from the rest of the words that were intermingled within it.

I will end it here.
 
Isa Abdullah said:
Secondly, let us call it what it is: the gospel was revealed to Jesus "orally".

"The" gospel is the wrong word to begin with. There are 4 gospels, they were written by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John.

God did not reveal anything to Jesus.


Isa Abdullah said:
...the message that Jesus (as) brought was lost....


He didn't bring any message from God. Jesus "message" is to be nice to people.


















His followers were not his scribes as the followers of Muhammad (saw).

Thirdly, the early Christian community relied heavily on books, however, amny were illiterate and from the poor. Many copiers were not adept in writing either. A book could be considered to be read by someone, if it was read to them by someone else.

Fourthly, most of the message that Jesus (as) brought was lost and indiscernable from the rest of the words that were intermingled within it.

I will end it here.[/QUOTE]
 
I thought God was just. If Jesus died for 'our sins' then God injustly punished him. And about Jesus' "death" from what I know (I may be wrong), Judas was made to look like Jesus and it was he who was crucified.


bismillah

Assalamu alaikum'

The theory of Judas being crucified is speculation. It is in the gospel of barnabas, however, the evidence for the Muslims is plain and simple: "they did not kill, nor crucify him, but it was made apparent to them."

Allaah (swt) tells us just what we need to know. We do not need to know who it was. Allah (swt) says, the time will come where He will inform of of that wherein we differed.
 
By the way, my previous post would seem to be off-topic but I felt I had to follow up the post I was responding to. Perhaps someone should start a new thread, such as, Did Jesus die on the Cross? and move the posts that relate to that over to that new thread. Just a thought.

Peace

bismillah

Greetings,

I am sure that topic has been discussed before. However, of of what evidence would you speculate? The Qur'an says, "no he was not killed nor crucified." Your NT is interpreted to say that he was. Why debate from your own book? That is futile and a waste...
 
"The" gospel is the wrong word to begin with. There are 4 gospels, they were written by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John.

God did not reveal anything to Jesus.





He didn't bring any message from God. Jesus "message" is to be nice to people.

His followers were not his scribes as the followers of Muhammad (saw).

Thirdly, the early Christian community relied heavily on books, however, amny were illiterate and from the poor. Many copiers were not adept in writing either. A book could be considered to be read by someone, if it was read to them by someone else.

Fourthly, most of the message that Jesus (as) brought was lost and indiscernable from the rest of the words that were intermingled within it.

I will end it here.
[/QUOTE]

bismillah

Greetings,

Where do you derive this information? There are uncertainties to whether those disciples actually composed the four books. All for differ in certain contents, however, they all were supposed to be 'witnesses' to the events.


Did Jesus (as) not seeking his will, but the ONE who sent him? Did Jesus (as) speak of the afterlife and the kingdom of God? Did Jesus (as) know this by himself, no! It was bestowed on him by God. And this is from the Bible. In the Qur'an it says more.

If gospel is the wrong word, what is the right one?
 
God is just. That means He must punish the guilty. But He is also love, and He is merciful. His being just would mean we (who are all sinners) must be punished for our sins. His mercy cannot simply overlook our sins. Our sins must be punished. But God in His great love for us, "laid on Him the iniquity of us all" (Isaiah 53:6). So HE was punished for OUR sins. 2 Cor. 5:21 says, "For He [God] made Him who knew no sin [Christ] to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 1 Peter 2:24 says, "[Christ] Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness..."

Now, at first glance, that would seem unjust of God to lay on Christ all OUR sins, when Christ was Himself sinless. But it was Christ Who voluntarily took on the role of our sin-bearer, knowing it was the only way any of us would ever be able to escape the punishment due us for our sins.

He said, "...I lay down My life for the sheep. Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.'' (John 10:15, 17-18). He also said, "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.'' (Mark 10:45)

We sinners don't want the justice of God---that would put US in hell forever. We want His love, mercy, and forgiveness. But that mercy and forgiveness is all based on payment for our sins having been made by Christ. Without His payment, we have no way around God's justice which spells our eternal doom because it requires punishment for our sins.



No, Judas wasn't crucified; he hanged himself after realizing he had betrayed innocent blood:

Matthew 27:
1. When morning came, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put Him to death.
2. And when they had bound Him, they led Him away and delivered Him to Pontius Pilate the governor.
3. Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4. saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.'' And they said, "What is that to us? You see to it!''
5. Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Peace


Greetings,

bismillah

Ezek. 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

Ezek.33:20, "Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways."

Job 1:8 "...my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?" (Job 2:3)

There is no need to believe in such an atonement, solely because it is not only unjust and illogical, but is not consistent with the Torah.

Judaism teaches the biblical way to repentance and reconciliation with God. Sincere repentance in which the sinner pledges to rectify his sinful ways and lead a righteous life is one means that is open at all times to all of humanity (Jonah 3:5-10, Daniel 4:27). God counsels Cain, "Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen? If you do good [that is, change your ways], will it not be lifted up [that is, you will be forgiven]. But if you do not do good, sin rests at the door; and it desires you, but you may rule over it" (Genesis 4:6-7). God informs Cain that repentance and forgiveness are always open to him. The remedy for sin is clear. Biblically, God's loving-kindness depends on right conduct
According to the Christian doctrine of original sin, until Jesus, atonement for sins could only be received through a blood atonement offering at the altar of the Jerusalem Temple. Those (Jews and all Gentiles) who could not avail themselves of the atonement granted at the Jerusalem Temple's altar died by this sin, consigned to eternal punishment with no means of achieving atonement and heavenly blessings. Following Jesus' death, it is claimed, neither Jew nor Gentile could receive forgiveness of their sins without belief in him as savior from sin. Indeed, if what Christianity says is true billions of people since then have also suffered the same fate, unaware of Jesus as their "savior" or that there was even a need to be "saved." According to this rationalization, God created humankind with free will and the ability to sin then demanded superlative perfection from this imperfect being that He created. Then God took on the guise of humanity in the form of Jesus in order to rescue His imperfect creation. But, in the process consigned billions of lost souls before and after the advent of Jesus to eternal punishment for not knowing of Jesus and accepting the "grace" he allegedly provided. Billions of people, Christian doctrine teaches, have gone to eternal damnation for not accepting what they did not know about!
.
 
bismillah

By hanging (Matthew 27:3-8) - "Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." But they said, "What is that to us? See to that yourself!" 5And he threw the pieces of silver into the sanctuary and departed; and he went away and hanged himself. 6And the chief priests took the pieces of silver and said, "It is not lawful to put them into the temple treasury, since it is the price of blood." 7And they counseled together and with the money bought the Potter’s Field as a burial place for strangers. 8For this reason that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day."


By falling (Acts 1:16-19) - "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17"For he was counted among us, and received his portion in this ministry." 18(Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)"

There is indeed a contradiction. It cannot be explained away that he was hung and he fell headlong and his bowels spilled out. It does refer to the hanging. There is something missing and it appears as if speculation played a part in determining that he was hung and fell down upon the ground.
 
Isa Abdullah said:
There is indeed a contradiction.

No, instead there is a decision by Muslims to pretend not to understand.

The story is Judas commited suicide after he betrayed Jesus.

How did he commit suicide? Nobody cares except Muslims trying to discredit the story.
 
Joe89 said:
No, instead there is a decision by Muslims to pretend not to understand.

The story is Judas commited suicide after he betrayed Jesus.

How did he commit suicide? Nobody cares except Muslims trying to discredit the story.

Nice try, but no atheist is capable of speaking for Muslims. You statements are baseless and unfortunately, disciminatory.

Pretend? LMAO! I fail to see how you can possible support your arguments.

Its a fact that Bible was initially the word of God, to be lated distorted by corrupted individuals. Go read books of scholars like Bart D. Ehrman and James D. Tabor. Apparently you need the education.
 
I am sure that topic [Did Jesus die on the Cross?] has been discussed before. However, of of what evidence would you speculate? The Qur'an says, "no he was not killed nor crucified." Your NT is interpreted to say that he was. Why debate from your own book? That is futile and a waste...

Why debate from the Qur'an? It is only the Qur'an that denies that historical fact. No other source would agree with your book.

The New Testament teaching that Jesus died on the cross is not a matter of interpretation. It is a matter of fact, historical fact. It is so stated, clearly and unambiguously, in countless verses over and over again, as well as in various non-biblical books and sources.

I'm not limited in the debate to ONE book. You are.

Peace
 
bismillah

Assalamu alaikum'

The theory of Judas being crucified is speculation. It is in the gospel of barnabas, however, the evidence for the Muslims is plain and simple: "they did not kill, nor crucify him, but it was made apparent to them."

I wonder why the theory presented in the gospel of barnabas not accepted. Is it because it does not support the orignal sin?
 
l
God is just. That means He must punish the guilty. But He is also love, and He is merciful. His being just would mean we (who are all sinners) must be punished for our sins. His mercy cannot simply overlook our sins. Our sins must be punished. But God in His great love for us, "laid on Him the iniquity of us all" (Isaiah 53:6). So HE was punished for OUR sins. 2 Cor. 5:21 says, "For He [God] made Him who knew no sin [Christ] to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 1 Peter 2:24 says, "[Christ] Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness..."

Now, at first glance, that would seem unjust of God to lay on Christ all OUR sins, when Christ was Himself sinless. But it was Christ Who voluntarily took on the role of our sin-bearer, knowing it was the only way any of us would ever be able to escape the punishment due us for our sins.

He said, "...I lay down My life for the sheep. Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.'' (John 10:15, 17-18). He also said, "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.'' (Mark 10:45)


Ezek. 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

Ezek.33:20, "Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways."

Job 1:8 "...my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?" (Job 2:3)

There is no need to believe in such an atonement, solely because it is not only unjust and illogical, but is not consistent with the Torah.

Judaism teaches the biblical way to repentance and reconciliation with God. Sincere repentance in which the sinner pledges to rectify his sinful ways and lead a righteous life is one means that is open at all times to all of humanity (Jonah 3:5-10, Daniel 4:27). God counsels Cain, "Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen? If you do good [that is, change your ways], will it not be lifted up [that is, you will be forgiven]. But if you do not do good, sin rests at the door; and it desires you, but you may rule over it" (Genesis 4:6-7). God informs Cain that repentance and forgiveness are always open to him. The remedy for sin is clear. Biblically, God's loving-kindness depends on right conduct.
According to the Christian doctrine of original sin, until Jesus, atonement for sins could only be received through a blood atonement offering at the altar of the Jerusalem Temple. Those (Jews and all Gentiles) who could not avail themselves of the atonement granted at the Jerusalem Temple's altar died by this sin, consigned to eternal punishment with no means of achieving atonement and heavenly blessings. Following Jesus' death, it is claimed, neither Jew nor Gentile could receive forgiveness of their sins without belief in him as savior from sin. Indeed, if what Christianity says is true billions of people since then have also suffered the same fate, unaware of Jesus as their "savior" or that there was even a need to be "saved." According to this rationalization, God created humankind with free will and the ability to sin then demanded superlative perfection from this imperfect being that He created. Then God took on the guise of humanity in the form of Jesus in order to rescue His imperfect creation. But, in the process consigned billions of lost souls before and after the advent of Jesus to eternal punishment for not knowing of Jesus and accepting the "grace" he allegedly provided. Billions of people, Christian doctrine teaches, have gone to eternal damnation for not accepting what they did not know about!

Judaism teaches the Old Covenant and Christianity teaches the New Covenant. Under the Old Covenant forgiveness was based on blood sacrifices.

Leviticus 17:11. `For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.'

The writer of Hebrews, in discussing and contrasting the Old and New covenants, says in 9:22:

22. And according to the law almost all things are purged with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission[forgiveness].

The Old Covenant (or Old Testament or O.T.) with all its animal sacrifices prefigured the ultimate sacrifice that Jesus, "the Lamb of God," made at Calvary, never to be repeated. Destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 A.D. did not destroy the law that required such sacrifices for forgiveness.

You mentioned Job. Notice Job 1:4-5:

4. Now his sons would go and feast in their houses, each on his appointed day, and would send and invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them.
5. So it was, when the days of feasting had run their course, that Job would send and sanctify them, and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all. For Job said, "It may be that my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.'' Thus Job did regularly.

Under Judaism, sin always required some payment, either in the form of a sacrificed animal, where the sin is symbolically transferred to the animal who dies, or punishment of the sinner himself. Today, not having a temple in which to sacrifice animals does not nullify or cancel the Law's demands, which includes all God said through Moses to the people concerning all the many sacrifices they were told to offer through the priests for an atonement for their souls.

Under the New Covenant, Christ's shedding of His Blood provides a full and complete atonement for our souls today.

1 Peter 1:
18. knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,
19. but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

1 John 1:
7. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5
...Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood

You say, "The remedy for sin is clear. Biblically, God's loving-kindness depends on right conduct." Wrong. Right conduct might show repentance, but it never cancels out wrong conduct. And we are all sinnners, constantly doing wrong conduct. God is loving, for sure. That is why we read in John 3:16---

16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Think about this: Man sins, rebelling against God. Man in his fallen, rebellious state cannot offer anything of value to God to himself atone for his sins, so God sends His Son ("He gave His only begotten Son" at Calvary) as the remedy for man's sins. But what do most men, including you, do? You reject the very remedy that God Himself has provided for your sins. If you die doing that then you will pay for your own sins for all eternity.

John 3:36 --- "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''

If billions have gone to eternal damnation it is because they are all sinners and deserving that fate. It is only by the grace of God that we all don't go there. I will leave to a Just, Holy, Righteous, and Loving God the fate of those who have not heard the Gospel. They, like all people, are sinners. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?'' (Gen. 18:25).

But YOU, who HAVE heard the Gospel, have a far worse fate if you continue to reject the payment Christ has made for your sins. You have no excuse.

Peace
 
"The" gospel is the wrong word to begin with. There are 4 gospels, they were written by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John.

We can rightly refer to "The Gospel" as defined by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:

1. Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2. by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you unless you believed in vain.
3. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4. and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

"Gospel" simply means "good news" and when we say, "The Gospel of John" or "the Gospel According to Matthew" we are simply referring to the good news about Jesus Christ---of His coming into the world, living a perfect, sinless life, going to the Cross and dying for our sins, and rising from the dead.

God did not reveal anything to Jesus. He didn't bring any message from God. Jesus "message" is to be nice to people.

No, everything He said was a message from God.

John 3:34. "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure."

When He prayed in Gethsemane, He said in
John 17:
7. "Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.
8. "For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

His message was much more than simply being nice to people, although that is certainly there, as in the "Golden Rule" (Matt. 7:12). For example, he talked more about hell than anyone else in the entire Bible. He exposed the sin of the self-righteous religious leaders. He said He came to serve and give His life a ransom for many. He claimed equality with God, when He said things like, "Before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) using the O.T. name for God from Ex. 3:14--

Exodus 3:
13. Then Moses said to God, "Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, `What is His name?' what shall I say to them?''
14. And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM.'' And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, `I AM has sent me to you.' ''

He also said if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins (John 8:24). By the way, that's the worst thing that can happen to anyone.

Now, when He said all that, the Jews understood He was claiming equality with God, because they took up stones to stone Him for blasphemy (John 8:59). But most people today do not understand the significance of it.

Peace
 
Phil12123 said:
No, everything He said was a message from God.

You have fallen into their trap.

The Muslim belief is that God gave a verbal mesage to the prophet(pbuh).

And the Muslim belief is that by the same method that he gave a message to Jesus - verbally. And that message has been corrupted.

You are re-inforcing their belief instead of your own belief.

They ask every Christian here the same question with the same trap in mind.
 
You have fallen into their trap.

The Muslim belief is that God gave a verbal mesage to the prophet(pbuh).

And the Muslim belief is that by the same method that he gave a message to Jesus - verbally. And that message has been corrupted.

You are re-inforcing their belief instead of your own belief.

They ask every Christian here the same question with the same trap in mind.

:sl:

Whats with your lies what trap it's our belief so please don't accuse of us setting up traps.
 
No, instead there is a decision by Muslims to pretend not to understand.

The story is Judas commited suicide after he betrayed Jesus.

How did he commit suicide? Nobody cares except Muslims trying to discredit the story.

bismillah

Greetings Joe98,

So the story says that Judas Thomas Iscariot commited suicide. (That is the Biblical position.) The point of knowing how is irrelevant. The point is which one is it? How did he die? If the Bible can't get the small matter correct, what about the bigger matters?

 
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