Does Islam allow Muttaween style policing?

[Malaikah]

Isn't that why we have a Religious Police?? Is it not the logic behind creation of such a Police?

How can you talk like that about your fellow Muslims? You are basically accusing them of trying to promote hypocrisy in their society. How offensive!

Did you ever think that maybe they want to protect the public??? Maybe they don't want sin to become wide spread publicly, maybe they don't want people to see others sinning left right and centre and then thinking its alright.

[Er, I'm assuming you are a Muslim? If not, then just ignore...]

 

[Umar001]

For me, its undermining the faith of its followers, I have a hard time justifying logically the need of a religious police such as the one the exist in Saudi Arabia

And you feel the need to justify it because....

Since it is done in Saudi Arabia, we are led to believe it without contemplating its validity or logic or anything for that matter. Blind faith prevails everywhere.

Now that's just stupid, are you telling me that you need to know the reason as to why a medicine works, what process it goes through, which chemicals balance what, and everything before you trust a respected Doctor, and take your medicine.

A patient in an emergency room is brought in, Doctor wants to give him certain medicine but the patient protests insisting that he needs to know why and how they work, the patient dies before the Doctor can explain. Blind faith would have provailed there.

What the people have told you here is that, since we trust the Doctors in Saudi, we trust that they would speak against something totally un Islamic, we then hold the position that if this was an un Islamic thing they would have spoken out against it. Is that an illogical position?

 

[Nerd]

How can you talk like that about your fellow Muslims? You are basically accusing them of trying to promote hypocrisy in their society. How offensive!

Did you ever think that maybe they want to protect the public??? Maybe they don't want sin to become wide spread publicly, maybe they don't want people to see others sinning left right and centre and then thinking its alright.

I have mentioned before "We do need a religious Police force, to spy on us, beat us up to make sure we carry-on our religious rituals" countering the hypocritical elements within a society...

But when the same police, Suppresses the religious rituals of people following another religion thats totally another story... please refer to the link I provided regarding the matter

 

[Nerd]

And you feel the need to justify it because....

Because Muslim's are NOT supposed to blindly follow everything, one reason why Muslims are the weakest among all other's is the fact we have given up on our faculty of thinking.

We do require proof and justification when, a group of our brothers/sisters ban cat's as pets refer to this link http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14738358/

 

[Umar001]

Because Muslim's are NOT supposed to blindly follow everything, one reason why Muslims are the weakest among all other's is the fact we have given up on our faculty of thinking.

We do require proof and justification when, a group of our brothers/sisters ban cat's as pets refer to this link http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14738358/

Who is following everything blindly? That is the problem.

Can the lay man can follow scholars blindly to some extent? Or should the scholar provide every bit of evidence in all matters, such that if there is a ruling the scholar will need to teach the lay man the rules of usool and the evidences of the hadith being saheh such that he will have hours of lectures.

You disagree with that article?

 

[Nerd]

What the people have told you here is that, since we trust the Doctors in Saudi, we trust that they would speak against something totally un Islamic, we then hold the position that if this was an un Islamic thing they would have spoken out against it. Is that an illogical position?

How would you feel, if you live in a Jewish state and there was a Jewish religious police that prevents you from daily congregational prayers??

I simply have a hard time believing that Islam would allow such acts against fellow brothers from other religions. refer to this link http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=5869

However I respect you position

 

[Umar001]

How would you feel, if you live in a Jewish state and there was a Jewish religious police that prevents you from daily congregational prayers??

I wouldn't want to live there. But to be honest why would I expect them to cater for a person that they believe is doing wrong!?

I simply have a hard time believing that Islam would allow such acts against fellow brothers from other religions. refer to this link http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=5869

However I respect you position

You mean the ones that Islam also says lie against God? I mean balance things out, sure they are our brothers but if someone lies against God are we going to be happy and let them do that? Of course not, I'd prefer they didn't do that, not because I hate them but because I care for them, I want the best for them, saying God is three or God has a son is not, in my view, whats best for them.

 

[Nerd]

I wouldn't want to live there. But to be honest why would I expect them to cater for a person that they believe is doing wrong!?

why wouldn't you? is it not your right to pray to the lord that you believe?

You mean the ones that Islam also says lie against God? I mean balance things out, sure they are our brothers but if someone lies against God are we going to be happy and let them do that? Of course not, I'd prefer they didn't do that, not because I hate them but because I care for them, I want the best for them, saying God is three or God has a son is not, in my view, whats best for them.

That's you opinion, but Islam is a religion of tolerance thats why Jew's and Christian's lived in harmony in the Islamic state Prophet peace be upon him built!!

 

[Umar001]

why wouldn't you? is it not your right to pray to the lord that you believe?

But what I believe is my right is not what others might believe is my right. Just because I believe I am right and I have rights does not mean other people have the same belief.

That's you opinion, but Islam is a religion of tolerance thats why Jew's and Christian's lived in harmony in the Islamic state Prophet peace be upon him built!!

What is my opinion? That Jews and Christians lie against God?

And to warn those (Jews, Christians, and pagans) who say, "Allāh has begotten a son (or offspring or children)." (Al-Kahf 18:4)

No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. Mighty is the word that comes out of their mouths [i.e. He begot (took) sons and daughters]. They utter nothing but a lie. (Al-Kahf 18:5)​

Or do you mean that I lie when I say that we shouldn't be happy with someone who lies against God. I don't know, being unhappy with someone does not mean we cannot tolerate them.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Selam aleykum
Al habeshi, I have to agree with Nerd here.
Doesn't no compulsion in religion hold that you shouldn't ban other religions, or arrest people for owning a bible and so on? Is that the sunnah of the prophet (peace be upon him); is that how he treated Jews and Christians in medina?
I also do disagree with the article about cats and dogs. I've had pet cats before and I don't see any problem with it as long as you take good care of 'm and allow them to run free. Especially when they go as far and say that the only reason for having pets is blind emulation of the west, thats' just ridiculous, there are many reasons to have a pet. It has many psychological advantages like keeping a light friendly mood in the house; many pets have a habit of greeting you or welcoming when you come home which makes you feel really good after a hard day; it also helps isolated lonely people; helps learning kids responsibility, and eventually learns them to cope with death (pets don't live forever) and so on...

 

[Umar001]

Selam aleykum
Al habeshi, I have to agree with Nerd here.
Doesn't no compulsion in religion hold that you shouldn't ban other religions, or arrest people for owning a bible and so on? Is that the sunnah of the prophet (peace be upon him); is that how he treated Jews and Christians in medina?

Wa Alaykum Salam brother,

We have to understand 'no compulsion in religion' how it was enacted by the Prophet and understood by the companions, so that leads to the next part you mention. 'Is that the sunnah of the prophet (peace be upon him)' I say, that I don't know how the prophet dealt with the Jews and Christians in depth. But we have to ask, is it possible that the Prophet allowed some stuf due to the circumstances? Maybe not driving out Jews and Christians because of the Circumstances of the time, for example, the Prophet didn't place the Qur'an into one book, due to the circumstances, he did not continue taraweeh due to the circumstances. If I am not mistaken he did not place the Ka'ba back to where the foundations lay due to circumstances.

But later on scholars done those things the Prophet did not due, although he may have had desire but didn't do due to circumstances, is it possible that removing other religions from those areas is one of those things? I don't know, but I guess scholars would. :thumbs_up

I also do disagree with the article about cats and dogs. I've had pet cats before and I don't see any problem with it as long as you take good care of 'm and allow them to run free. Especially when they go as far and say that the only reason for having pets is blind emulation of the west, thats' just ridiculous, there are many reasons to have a pet. It has many psychological advantages like keeping a light friendly mood in the house; many pets have a habit of greeting you or welcoming when you come home which makes you feel really good after a hard day; it also helps isolated lonely people; helps learning kids responsibility, and eventually learns them to cope with death (pets don't live forever) and so on...

I agree there maybe benefits, but also, do you conceed that it could be people there following the west? I think it could be, why do I say that, because when I go places like africa and so forth I see the ways animals are treated, very different from the west. Now, for people to start acting like the west, holding chihuhuas (sp) like accessories and so forth is acting like the west.

Now, I cannot tell you the situation in Saudi, I have not been there, but if there is a possibility, which I think there is, that the people there are doing it to act like the west, then shouldn't we assume the best of our Scholars and think that they know the situation on their doorstep well enough and know the principles well enough to asess the situation?

 

[S_87]

I have mentioned before "We do need a religious Police force, to spy on us, beat us up to make sure we carry-on our religious rituals" countering the hypocritical elements within a society...

But when the same police, Suppresses the religious rituals of people following another religion thats totally another story... please refer to the link I provided regarding the matter

yes they make mistakes without a doubr but lets stop them. who cares if drugs prostitution pornography alchohol etc is not stopped

 

[S_87]

Thx for your detailed post. while I agree with the general message of the sermon, and while I acknowledge that it's more general and you didn't present it as a defense in favor of this police, I 'd like to still take the time point out that while at first glance this lecture might be antagonistic to my views, it could just as well be interpreted the other way.

i wasnt speaking about the current ones in general so..

It's a fine line between helping someone and forcing someone.

im not concerned with statements like this

should policemen in saudia also be taken off the street?

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

i think we can leave the christians and jews and stuff alone as long as they pay jizya.

but muslims must behave like muslims right? i mean when you enter islaam its like you enter into a promise? you basiccally signed the contract to act a certain way, so why shouldnt the people be allowed to enforce that?


thats how i see it...

 

[Malaikah]

then shouldn't we assume the best of our Scholars and think that they know the situation on their doorstep well enough and know the principles well enough to asess the situation?

Exactly! Not to mention not criticising them based on an article of unknown authenticity!

 

[Umar001]

And you feel the need to justify it because....




Now that's just stupid, are you telling me that you need to know the reason as to why a medicine works, what process it goes through, which chemicals balance what, and everything before you trust a respected Doctor, and take your medicine.

A patient in an emergency room is brought in, Doctor wants to give him certain medicine but the patient protests insisting that he needs to know why and how they work, the patient dies before the Doctor can explain. Blind faith would have provailed there.

What the people have told you here is that, since we trust the Doctors in Saudi, we trust that they would speak against something totally un Islamic, we then hold the position that if this was an un Islamic thing they would have spoken out against it. Is that an illogical position?

I made a mistake/left something out. To continue from the bold underlined bit.

And even if there was something unislamic going on, and we don't see the Scholars speaking out against it then one could also assume that they have done this out of wisdom. I.e. when undertaking an action one has to forsee the result of this action. Example:

Imagine you have very bad Muslims, they drank alchol and killed other Muslims. Now, these bad Muslims started just drinking alchol, but we do not hear scholars speaking against this, we ask why? And the scholars say, it is the lesser evil to let these guys drink, because as long as they are drunk they wont kill Muslims, which is a greater evil.​

You see what I mean? It maybe that the scholar forsee something, in their wisdom, which we do not forsee, and if we ask them they may tell us, but due to their forseeing this they wait until a better situation arises for action to be taken, they proceed to take the lesser of the two evils.

And Allah knows best.

 

[Nerd]

Yep, wouldn't Muslim's feel infuriated if in America, there was a Christian Police that prevents Muslims from fasting and praying in congregation? Furthermore, ain't it a joke to see Police with their Guns and baton's herding people to churches?

People, if they truly believe in the teachings of a religion they would abide by them willingly, because they love the God, and they fear the wrath of a God.

Now what happens, here when we introduce a police to make sure you pray or fast, YOU BE RATHER PRAYING AND FASTING CAUSE OF YOUR FEAR OF THE PUNISHMENT BY THE POLICE BUT NOT OF GOD. DEFEATING THE PURPOSE OF THE PRAYER.

 

[S_87]

^^ so you think saudi should be an open society where people can do what they want or do you think there is a limit to what they mutawween should do?

 

[Umar001]

Yep, wouldn't Muslim's feel infuriated if in America, there was a Christian Police that prevents Muslims from fasting and praying in congregation? Furthermore, ain't it a joke to see Police with their Guns and baton's herding people to churches?

What we do as part of our religion shouldn't be based on how we feel, everyone knows the famous quote of Ali about if religion was based on logic....

And Muslims may feel angry, but they would understand why the Christians are doing that.

People, if they truly believe in the teachings of a religion they would abide by them willingly, because they love the God, and they fear the wrath of a God.

Not really, in theory yes, but in practice people become lazy, shaytan wispers. Ask individuals, do they sin more when they are with people or when they are alone? Alot of us weak people, sin more alone, because sometimes we are down, emotionally/psychologically, and many other reasons.

Now what happens, here when we introduce a police to make sure you pray or fast, YOU BE RATHER PRAYING AND FASTING CAUSE OF YOUR FEAR OF THE PUNISHMENT BY THE POLICE BUT NOT OF GOD. DEFEATING THE PURPOSE OF THE PRAYER.

No, I mean that may happen in some cases bro, and I understand that, but we cant control people's intentions, just like the Hippocrates at the time of the Prophet done things for the wrong reasons! But there will be some Muslims who are lazy or easly mislead who when pushed or even when around practicing people do pray more often and do not commit sins, not because they worship these people but because these people remind them to fear God and Obey God. Do you not agree taht this can happen?

 

[Nerd]

Wa Alaykum Salam brother,

'Is that the sunnah of the prophet (peace be upon him)' I say, that I don't know how the prophet dealt with the Jews and Christians in depth. But we have to ask, is it possible that the Prophet allowed some stuf due to the circumstances? Maybe not driving out Jews and Christians because of the Circumstances of the time, for example, the Prophet didn't place the Qur'an into one book, due to the circumstances,

It saddens me to know that we have no respect for anything other than Islam even when our scripture specifically demands that we maintain mutual reverence with the other faiths. By treating each other with dignity, respect and tolerance.