Does Islam allow Muttaween style policing?

[Malaikah]

I thought non-Muslims were not even allowed to live in the general Arabian peninsula in the first place?

 

[Umar001]

It saddens me to know that we have no respect for anything other than Islam even when our scripture specifically demands that we maintain mutual reverence with the other faiths. By treating each other with dignity, respect and tolerance.

What part of the quoted statement do you disagree with?

I respect people, for goodness sake my Mum and rest of the family are Christians, I do respect them. But there are different degrees of respect, love, hate, dislike and so forth.

I agree with what you say about treating each other in a good way, I believe in that, but do you believe in the rest of your scripture? Do you!? Do you believe what the Prophet said about Jews and Christians who hear about him but do not end up believing, what happens to them? Have you not read what Your God saysabout the Skies and their nearly shattering because of what people utter against God, that he has a son. These are the Skies and Mountains that nearly tearn and fall, yet you happily accept such sayings, without a shiver in your heart?

And they say: "The Most Beneficent (Allah) has begotten a son (or offspring or children) (as the Jews say: Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say that He has begotten a son (Iesa (Christ) ), and the pagan Arabs say that He has begotten daughters (angels, etc.))."

Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing.

Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins,

That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Beneficent (Allah).

But it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Beneficent (Allah) that He should beget a son (or offspring or children).​

Are we supposed to then be loving (in the special way) to people who Allah hates and have earned His anger?

So brother, I have answered you, now you answer me that please.
and Allah knows best.

 

[Nerd]

“Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in God the Almighty, and believes in the Day of Judgment, and leads a righteous life, will receive their due recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve" Chapter 2 The Heifer, Verse 62

 

[Malaikah]

From tasfir ibn kathir.

`Ali bin Abi Talhah narrated from Ibn `Abbas, about,


﴿إِنَّ الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَالَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَالنَّصَـرَى وَالصَّـبِئِينَ مَنْ ءَامَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ﴾


(Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day) that Allah revealed the following Ayah afterwards,


﴿وَمَن يَبْتَغِ غَيْرَ الإِسْلَـمِ دِينًا فَلَن يُقْبَلَ مِنْهُ وَهُوَ فِى الاٌّخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَـسِرِينَ ﴾


(And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers) (3:85).


This statement by Ibn `Abbas indicates that Allah does not accept any deed or work from anyone, unless it conforms to the Law of Muhammad that is, after Allah sent Muhammad . Before that, every person who followed the guidance of his own Prophet was on the correct path, following the correct guidance and was saved.

 

[Umar001]

“Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in God the Almighty, and believes in the Day of Judgment, and leads a righteous life, will receive their due recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve" Chapter 2 The Heifer, Verse 62

Of course, I agree with that, but you dont seem to understand my question, do you agree with this:

And the Jews say: Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allahs Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!
09:30​

And to warn those (Jews, Christians, and pagans) who say, "Allah has begotten a son (or offspring or children)."
No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. Mighty is the word that comes out of their mouths (i.e. He begot (took) sons and daughters). They utter nothing but a lie.
18:04-05​

Do then those who disbelieve think that they can take My slaves (i.e., the angels, Allahs Messengers, Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), etc.) as Auliya (lords, gods, protectors, etc.) besides Me? Verily, We have prepared Hell as an entertainment for the disbelievers (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism).
18:102​

Why do you turn away, simply answer please.

 

[Nerd]

Of course, I agree with that, but you dont seem to understand my question, do you agree with this:

And the Jews say: Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allahs Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!
09:30​

And to warn those (Jews, Christians, and pagans) who say, "Allah has begotten a son (or offspring or children)."
No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. Mighty is the word that comes out of their mouths (i.e. He begot (took) sons and daughters). They utter nothing but a lie.
18:04-05​

Do then those who disbelieve think that they can take My slaves (i.e., the angels, Allahs Messengers, Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), etc.) as Auliya (lords, gods, protectors, etc.) besides Me? Verily, We have prepared Hell as an entertainment for the disbelievers (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism).
18:102​

Why do you turn away, simply answer please.

Your question was, are we supposed to love them in a special way??

Let quote what I have said here "It saddens me to know that we have no respect for anything other than Islam even when our scripture specifically demands that we maintain mutual reverence with the other faiths. By treating each other with dignity, respect and tolerance can only we co-exist."

And yes, Jew's and Christian's believe something very different from what we Muslim's believe in; Different God etc etc. However that does not mean, we should treat them like animals or slaves and suppress their rights to worship who they believe is God.

And Not me, or you have the final say on the ultimate fate of anybody. RE-read the Quran; what God had to say about this:

“Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in God the Almighty, and believes in the Day of Judgment, and leads a righteous life, will receive their due recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve”

 

[Nerd]

What we do as part of our religion shouldn't be based on how we feel, everyone knows the famous quote of Ali about if religion was based on logic....

And Muslims may feel angry, but they would understand why the Christians are doing that.

It is part of religion to suffer and fear the Police? A police that denies basic rights for a Muslim such as his/her right to pray in congregation?

Didn't our Prophet, migrated to another country when he and his followers were denied their right to conduct their religious rituals within Mecca? Why did not Our prophet peace be upon him, stayed in Mecca instead and endured the suffering if it was indeed what our religion prescribes?

Am I wrong when I say, that Islam is a religion of TOLERANCE? which made it possible for Jews, Christians and Muslims to live in peace and harmony respecting each other?

 

[Umar001]

And Not me, or you have the final on their ultimate fate of anybody. RE-read the Quran; what God had to say about this:

“Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in God the Almighty, and believes in the Day of Judgment, and leads a righteous life, will receive their due recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve”

You know what brother there is no point in discussing anything with you, you either dont want to or just simple dont understand.

Your question was, are we supposed to love them in a special way??

This is the question:

And they say: "The Most Beneficent (Allah) has begotten a son (or offspring or children) (as the Jews say: Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say that He has begotten a son (Iesa (Christ) ), and the pagan Arabs say that He has begotten daughters (angels, etc.))."

Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing.

Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins,

That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Beneficent (Allah).

But it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Beneficent (Allah) that He should beget a son (or offspring or children).​

Are we supposed to then be loving (in the special way) to people who Allah hates and have earned His anger?

So brother, I have answered you, now you answer me that please.
and Allah knows best.

Yes or no, you haven't answered, respecting someone isn't the same as loving them!

And yes, Jew's and Christian's believe something very different from what we Muslim's believe in; Different God etc etc. However that does not mean, we should treat them like animals or slaves and suppress their rights to worship who they believe is God.

Noone said treat them like animals. Also, what right? You speak as if someone has given mankind a right to worship others besides God or worship God how they want. Rather, the rights are given by God alone. Now tell me, is God happy that they worship a man or others besides God? Did God tell them, You have the right to worship who you want!

I agree, God let them have freedom to a certain extent, just like we have freedom to a certain extent, the extent of our rights is established by God, that's what I claim to follow.

And Not me, or you have the final on their ultimate fate of anybody. RE-read the Quran; what God had to say about this:

“Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in God the Almighty, and believes in the Day of Judgment, and leads a righteous life, will receive their due recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve”

And now you read the Qur'an, but don't read it and just interpret it on your own! Read this thread

Read what people of knowledge say.

http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=2912&ln=eng

Read what your sister quoted you;

From tasfir ibn kathir.

`Ali bin Abi Talhah narrated from Ibn `Abbas, about,


﴿إِنَّ الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَالَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَالنَّصَـرَى وَالصَّـبِئِينَ مَنْ ءَامَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ﴾


(Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day) that Allah revealed the following Ayah afterwards,


﴿وَمَن يَبْتَغِ غَيْرَ الإِسْلَـمِ دِينًا فَلَن يُقْبَلَ مِنْهُ وَهُوَ فِى الاٌّخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَـسِرِينَ ﴾


(And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers) (3:85).


This statement by Ibn `Abbas indicates that Allah does not accept any deed or work from anyone, unless it conforms to the Law of Muhammad that is, after Allah sent Muhammad . Before that, every person who followed the guidance of his own Prophet was on the correct path, following the correct guidance and was saved.

Who out of her own mercy even highlighted the part in bold for you!

Don't come here and read one verse and leave everything else out, not respond to it, and just talk about that one verse, which you interpret in a way which is not the correct way anyway!

Now, it is clear me and you are not going to agree, it is also clear that this thread has come a long way. So we have both made our points, let us leave it at that and the individual can make their own mind up about what the verse says/means.

And Allah knows best.

Your brother,
Eesa

 

[Nerd]

In summary, its is alright and it is in fact Islamic to storm into a congregational prayer ceremony of any other Faith other than Islam, and bring it to a halt and persecute the mass.

It is alright and it is In fact Islamic to ban cats as pets.

And it is not undermining the faith; when a police is present to ensure that Muslims does their daily prayers and stay away from Haram things and deeds. It is in fact a method to boost faith of (hypocritical) Muslims, who need a materialistic threat to be present in order for them to obey the Islamic Sharia

Christians and Jews should never be loved by a Muslim

Allah Knows the best... May Allah Forgive us for all

 

[Umar001]

In summary, its is alright and it is in fact Islamic to storm into a congregational prayer ceremony of any other Faith other than Islam, and bring it to a halt and persecute the mass.

Depends.

It is alright and it is In fact Islamic to ban cats as pets.

Depends.

And it is not undermining the faith; when a police is present to ensure that Muslims does their daily prayers and stay away from Haram things and deeds. It is in fact a method to boost faith of (hypocritical) Muslims, who need a materialistic threat to be present in order for them to obey the Islamic Sharia

Everyone is rewarded according to intentions.

Christians and Jews should never be loved by a Muslim

Most stupid comment I have ever heard.

 

[Nerd]

Most stupid comment I have ever heard.

:-[ I was simply agreeing with you (atleast thats what I thought I was doing), since you asked me "Are we supposed to then be loving (in the special way) to people who Allah hates and have earned His anger? "

But I suppose you meant something else, would you care to enlighten me on this matter brother?

 

[Nerd]

As for the Comment, you have made about banning Cat's as pets:

“O ye who believe! Forbid not the good thing which Allah hath made ‘lawful’ for you, and transgress not. Lo Allah loveth not transgressors. Eat of that which Allah hath bestowed on you as food ‘lawful’ and good, and keep your duty to Allah in Whom ye are believers.” (Surah: Al-Ma'idha: Verse: 87-88)

Which verse in the Quran, or a Hadith specifies that Cat's are Haram as Household pets?

 

[Malaikah]

Nerd, my problem here is that you have no real understanding of WHY they forbade them as pets. You approach is shockingly simplistic. By the same logic you should be arguing against laws that forbid speeding on roads because there is nothing in the Quran that says we can't drive a car as fast as we want.

First go read the fatwa itself [no, a bias news article does not count] then come back and tell us why they are wrong to forbid the pets.

Anyway, it seems clear that they did not forbid is on the basis that there is something wrong with cats themselves, but the ban was based on something indirect - but we con't know that unless we read the fatwa itself.

 

[//-Asif-\\]

Assalaam Alaikum All.

Interesting topic of discussion, good points raised by both sides has me a bit mixed on the whole thing. I mean, doesn't the Qur'an say:

There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.(2:256)

So there we have it, right there in our Holy Book disallowing forcing anyone to do anything in religious matters. If they are grabbing people by the collar and pushing them down to pray,threatening them with prison time,beatdowns or something of the sort it defeats the whole purpose of a Muslims duty as "just a plain warner". I don't really know if they are doing that or not, but any type of coercion with threats and gun and nightstick wielding should be unacceptable.

I think it is sort of good to have a police for things like shutting down places where alcohol is being sold or if someones out on the street selling porn or some un-Islamic act like that, but it shouldn't be abused to the point where Police walk into someones house to check if they are praying on time. That should just be encouraged, not forced.

If someone is committing sins of that kind (choosing not to fast etc.), it would be best to encourage them and talk to them. If they continue let them be punished by God personally on the Day of Judgment for his/her neglect.That's the way I see it.

 

[Malaikah]

There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.(2:256)

As far as I know, this refers to people entering a religion, not to fulfilling the commands of the religion.

So there we have it, right there in our Holy Book disallowing forcing anyone to do anything in religious matters.

But did not the Messenger of Allah say something along the lines of commanding children to pray when they reach the age of 7 and by the age of ten, if they don't pray then hit them [lightly]?

If someone is committing sins of that kind (choosing not to fast etc.), it would be best to encourage them and talk to them. If they continue let them be punished by God personally on the Day of Judgment for his/her neglect.That's the way I see it.

In the privacy of their own homes, perhaps. But what right do they have to eat in public during Ramadhan when they should be fasting?

 

[barney]

Wouldnt "No Compulsion in Religion" cover it?

It seems hard to reconcile the Verse that says this with the behaviour of the MFPOV&POV in Iran and under the Taliban, where showing an ankle brings on beatings and torture.

 

[Malaikah]

As I already mentioned no compulsion in religion refers to entering Islam, not practising Islam.

And claims of torture for showing ankles is pure exaggeration.

 

[barney]

And claims of torture for showing ankles is pure exaggeration.

AFP, March 2, 1999


KABUL, March 2 (AFP) - Taliban soldiers here Tuesday forced some two dozen youths to get a haircut, while the religious police beat women for showing their ankles, witnesses said.

The soldiers herded 25 young men into a center near the Ministry of Justice where barbers went to work on their heads, they said.

"They took me inside and gave me a haircut without any explanation," Ahmad Jawid told AFP.

Rubbing his freshly mowed head, Jawid said each was made to pay 3,000 Afghanis (around eight cents) to barbers employed by the center.

Cobblers at a nearby pavement said the haircut operation had been going on for several days now and people avoided passing through the area.

A stick-wielding policeman was seen jumping off a van and lashing two passing women on their backs with a one-meter (yard) tree branch, while pointing toward their ankles.

The officer then entered garment shops and beat two other women in the same fashion before chasing them out of the market.

The women did not say a word as other shoppers and shopkeepers looked on.

The Islamic militia has banned western fashion and barred women from jobs and education, besides making it compulsory for them to cover themselves from head to toe outside the home.

The religious police of the Ministry for Promoting Virtue and Preventing Vice keeps a constant vigil to ensure compliance with the regulations by the citizens in Kabul, which was once a liberal city.

 

[crayon]

I'm not going to get into this discussion, because if I do I'll never come out.

I just wanted to say that it is not haram to keep cats as pets, but it is haram to sell or buy them. I actually only just found this out a while ago.

"It is permissible to keep cats but it is not permissible to buy or sell them; they may be given as gifts or given away. That is because of the hadeeth of Abu’l-Zubayr who said: “I asked Jaabir about the price of dogs and cats. He said, ‘The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade that.’” (Narrated by Muslim, 1569). "

islamq&a

 

[wth1257]

:salamext:

I dont even know why people are complaining to be honest. I think its kool

There is nothing cool about innocent girls being killed in a fire because they wern't wearing the Hajib when they tried to get out and the poloice forceing them to go back.

I'm not a Muslim, but I do have great respect for Islam and it's beauty, such a beautifull religion should not be represented by the Saudi family and their police, not to cast judgement on the entire family, but many of them do horrid things.