Darth Ultor
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I hope the King of Saudi Arabia will swing from a rope
Domino effect
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Woodrow
May Allah have mercy on him رحمة الله عليه
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Perhaps in 5 or 6 hundred years future historians will be able to give an accurate assessment of today's world and point out all of the errors that have been made. But that is of no benefit to the people of now.
For today we can only go by the lessons of history. In simplicity when the people of a nation feel overly dominated and unfairly treated by their leaders, revolutions take place. Revolutions do not always result in the change of leadership or the formation of better government. No human can accurately predict the outcome of any revolution. But there can be a reasonable expectation that one result is going to be massive destruction and a need for rebuilding. There can be an expectation that during the time of revolution a country is ill-prepared to protect itself from outside forces. There can be an expectation that standing in the sidelines are those who seek to take advantage of any weakness that presents itself.
We can be reasonably assured that if a revolution fails, the situation will be worse than prior conditions. At the same time unless a revolution has been carefully planned and good leaders have been selected prior to the revolution, there will be no winning of a revolution, just new faces they will produce no change and just leave the impoverished even more impoverished than prior.
Sadly I see no organization behind any of today's revolutions. It seems to be more an out cry of anger and no goals for construction. The future for those who will have to live in the aftermath does not seem to be very bright, in my opinion. The end result may very well be a need for more outside interference, not the reduction the revolutionaries seem to be wanting.
For today we can only go by the lessons of history. In simplicity when the people of a nation feel overly dominated and unfairly treated by their leaders, revolutions take place. Revolutions do not always result in the change of leadership or the formation of better government. No human can accurately predict the outcome of any revolution. But there can be a reasonable expectation that one result is going to be massive destruction and a need for rebuilding. There can be an expectation that during the time of revolution a country is ill-prepared to protect itself from outside forces. There can be an expectation that standing in the sidelines are those who seek to take advantage of any weakness that presents itself.
We can be reasonably assured that if a revolution fails, the situation will be worse than prior conditions. At the same time unless a revolution has been carefully planned and good leaders have been selected prior to the revolution, there will be no winning of a revolution, just new faces they will produce no change and just leave the impoverished even more impoverished than prior.
Sadly I see no organization behind any of today's revolutions. It seems to be more an out cry of anger and no goals for construction. The future for those who will have to live in the aftermath does not seem to be very bright, in my opinion. The end result may very well be a need for more outside interference, not the reduction the revolutionaries seem to be wanting.
If the US maintains the status quo during these protests and does not stop aid to Mubarak's government then they will be seen as supporting Mubarak. It will mean they are hypocrites when it comes to supporting democracy, and instead are simply helping to maintain a brutal dictatorship.
The call for a voice in government is pretty clear. The leaders don't have to be selected now. All that needs to be done is have a system in place in order for the people to be allowed to choose their government.
If some group is able to take control of the government without any type of election then yes, Egypt could be in for a bleak future. Even with elections it won't be easy, but at least the people will know they are being heard and that they have the power to remove from office those that they feel cannot do the job right.
GuestFellow
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Didn't the US say that they support the protesters? It means the US supports democracy. It not actually getting involved, the US government gave its opinion.
Can you give me an historical example where people disliked America because it did not get involved? I mean actually getting involved and not simply issuing a statement.
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SafaAuditore
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Nooo too many people are dying!! The dastarb mubarek is still standing while cold bodies are filling up the freezers!! What the hell?!?!?! Someone needs to assassinate him!!
The US also threatened to remove aid, so yes it is supporting the protestors by threat of action. By supporting one side over another it is getting involved. Mubarak knows that he cannot use the US and their money as a safety net, and that will have a huge impact on what course of action he decides to take.
The US has been roundly criticized for its inaction with Rwanda. Bill Clinton even apologized later for it.
There has also been extensive criticism of the way that the US and other powerful countries handled the situation in Darfur, which was basically to do nothing.
More than one Muslim on this forum in the past has brought up the inaction of the the US in Sudan to "prove" that the US hates Muslims.
Salaam
Another good video discussing how the US domination of the Middle East has been shaken by the peoples uprising
Also of interest is the Israeli reaction -
Israel urges world to curb criticism of Egypt's Mubarak
Jerusalem seeks to convince its allies that it is in the West's interest to maintain the stability of the Egyptian regime.
Israel called on the United States and a number of European countries over the weekend to curb their criticism of President Hosni Mubarak to preserve stability in the region.
Jerusalem seeks to convince its allies that it is in the West's interest to maintain the stability of the Egyptian regime. The diplomatic measures came after statements in Western capitals implying that the United States and European Union supported Mubarak's ouster.
Israeli officials are keeping a low profile on the events in Egypt, with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu even ordering cabinet members to avoid commenting publicly on the issue.
Senior Israeli officials, however, said that on Saturday night the Foreign Ministry issued a directive to around a dozen key embassies in the United States, Canada, China, Russia and several European countries. The ambassadors were told to stress to their host countries the importance of Egypt's stability. In a special cable, they were told to get this word out as soon as possible.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...to-curb-criticism-of-egypt-s-mubarak-1.340238
Another good video discussing how the US domination of the Middle East has been shaken by the peoples uprising
Also of interest is the Israeli reaction -
Israel urges world to curb criticism of Egypt's Mubarak
Jerusalem seeks to convince its allies that it is in the West's interest to maintain the stability of the Egyptian regime.
Israel called on the United States and a number of European countries over the weekend to curb their criticism of President Hosni Mubarak to preserve stability in the region.
Jerusalem seeks to convince its allies that it is in the West's interest to maintain the stability of the Egyptian regime. The diplomatic measures came after statements in Western capitals implying that the United States and European Union supported Mubarak's ouster.
Israeli officials are keeping a low profile on the events in Egypt, with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu even ordering cabinet members to avoid commenting publicly on the issue.
Senior Israeli officials, however, said that on Saturday night the Foreign Ministry issued a directive to around a dozen key embassies in the United States, Canada, China, Russia and several European countries. The ambassadors were told to stress to their host countries the importance of Egypt's stability. In a special cable, they were told to get this word out as soon as possible.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...to-curb-criticism-of-egypt-s-mubarak-1.340238
Darth Ultor
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"People should not fear their governments, governments should fear their people." -V-
SafaAuditore
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I can already see the spikey wire stabbing the skin on the neck of mubarek and all his evil followers. I can picture people taking turns and shooting him after he's dead, same way they did to stalin.
Why the hell is no other world leaders doing ANYTHING about this crap?! These videos are hidden and the internet in the country was cut off, and everyday i see a new one of the bi*** president's cop cars running over protesters completely heartless!!! Wataf?!?!?!
GuestFellow
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It sounds like a job for Ezio Auditore XD.
Salaam
Yes, its interesting how ‘restrained’ euroamerican elites have been. Privately they are lamenting the inevitable fall of their ‘favourite’.
However some are so upset that they dont even pretend to hide it. There terrified a government will come into being that they can manipulate and control. Take this demented piece from 'peace maker' Blair.
Tony Blair: Mubarak is 'immensely courageous and a force for good'
Former PM praises Egyptian president over role in peace negotiations and warns against a rush to elections that could bring Muslim Brotherhood to power
Tony Blair has described Hosni Mubarak, the beleaguered Egyptian leader, as “immensely courageous and a force for good” and warned against a rush to elections that could bring the Muslim Brotherhood to power.
The former prime minister, now an envoy to the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, praised Mubarak over his role in the negotiations and said the west was right to back him despite his authoritarian regime because he had maintained peace with Israel.
But that view is likely to anger many Egyptians who believe they have had to endure decades of dictatorship because the US put Israel’s interests ahead of their freedom. Speaking to Piers Morgan on CNN, Blair defended his backing for Mubarak.
“Where you stand on him depends on whether you’ve worked with him from the outside or on the inside. I’ve worked with him on the Middle East peace process between the Israelis and the Palestinians so this is somebody I’m constantly in contact with and working with and on that issue, I have to say, he’s been immensely courageous and a force for good,” he said.
“Inside Egypt, and I have many Egyptian friends, it’s clear that there’s been a huge desire for change.”
Asked if the west had not been an obstacle to change, Blair defended the policies of his and other governments.
“I don’t think the west should be the slightest bit embarrassed about the fact that it’s been working with Mubarak over the peace process but at the same time it’s been urging change in Egypt,” he said.
Blair argued that the region has unique problems that make political change different from the democratic revolutions in eastern Europe. He said the principal issue was the presence of Islamist parties that he fears will use democracy to gain power and then undermine the freedoms people seek.
“It’s perfectly natural for those from the outside to want to support this movement for change at the same time as saying let’s be careful about this and make sure that what happens in this process of change is something that ends in free and fair elections and a democratic system of government and it doesn’t get taken over or channelled in to a different direction that is at odds with what the people of Egypt want,” he said.
Blair said that meant there should not be a rush to elections in Egypt.
“I don’t think there’s a majority for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. On the other hand, what you’ve got to watch is that they are extremely well-organised and well-funded whereas those people who are out on the street at the moment, many of them will be extremely well-intentioned people but they’re not organised in political parties yet. So one of the issues in the transition is to give time for those political parties to get themselves properly organised,” he said.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/if-i-had-a-rocket-launcher-2/
Yes, its interesting how ‘restrained’ euroamerican elites have been. Privately they are lamenting the inevitable fall of their ‘favourite’.
However some are so upset that they dont even pretend to hide it. There terrified a government will come into being that they can manipulate and control. Take this demented piece from 'peace maker' Blair.
Tony Blair: Mubarak is 'immensely courageous and a force for good'
Former PM praises Egyptian president over role in peace negotiations and warns against a rush to elections that could bring Muslim Brotherhood to power
Tony Blair has described Hosni Mubarak, the beleaguered Egyptian leader, as “immensely courageous and a force for good” and warned against a rush to elections that could bring the Muslim Brotherhood to power.
The former prime minister, now an envoy to the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, praised Mubarak over his role in the negotiations and said the west was right to back him despite his authoritarian regime because he had maintained peace with Israel.
But that view is likely to anger many Egyptians who believe they have had to endure decades of dictatorship because the US put Israel’s interests ahead of their freedom. Speaking to Piers Morgan on CNN, Blair defended his backing for Mubarak.
“Where you stand on him depends on whether you’ve worked with him from the outside or on the inside. I’ve worked with him on the Middle East peace process between the Israelis and the Palestinians so this is somebody I’m constantly in contact with and working with and on that issue, I have to say, he’s been immensely courageous and a force for good,” he said.
“Inside Egypt, and I have many Egyptian friends, it’s clear that there’s been a huge desire for change.”
Asked if the west had not been an obstacle to change, Blair defended the policies of his and other governments.
“I don’t think the west should be the slightest bit embarrassed about the fact that it’s been working with Mubarak over the peace process but at the same time it’s been urging change in Egypt,” he said.
Blair argued that the region has unique problems that make political change different from the democratic revolutions in eastern Europe. He said the principal issue was the presence of Islamist parties that he fears will use democracy to gain power and then undermine the freedoms people seek.
“It’s perfectly natural for those from the outside to want to support this movement for change at the same time as saying let’s be careful about this and make sure that what happens in this process of change is something that ends in free and fair elections and a democratic system of government and it doesn’t get taken over or channelled in to a different direction that is at odds with what the people of Egypt want,” he said.
Blair said that meant there should not be a rush to elections in Egypt.
“I don’t think there’s a majority for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. On the other hand, what you’ve got to watch is that they are extremely well-organised and well-funded whereas those people who are out on the street at the moment, many of them will be extremely well-intentioned people but they’re not organised in political parties yet. So one of the issues in the transition is to give time for those political parties to get themselves properly organised,” he said.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/if-i-had-a-rocket-launcher-2/
Perseveranze
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Darth Ultor
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How is it un-Islamic to protest oppression? And does it specifically say in the Quran or Hadith that multi-party democratic governments are haraam?
aadil77
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Typical response from saudi puppet scholars, they don't want their puppet king abdullah being toppled.
About the government, not sure, I know councils have been a part of islamic govts
Darth Ultor
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That doesn't really answer my question.
ardianto
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Aadil had answer your question, but I understand if you don't understand.
I explain. Remember Gulf War that started when Iraq invade Kuwait ?. This invasion made Saudi king so scared, and he asked help to American to fight Iraqis. His decision to ask help from America caused pro and contra. There where Ulama (Muslim scholars) who did not agree because American are non Muslim. But there where Ulama who agreed and supported Saudi king decision.
Ulama who disagree criticise Saudi king. Of course, Ulama who support Saudi king were not silent. They made a counter attack with innovate some rule that prohibit Muslims disobey the ruler even if the ruler oppressed the people. And some of them accused Ikhwanul Muslimin behind those critics. This was the beginning of conflict between Ikhwanul Muslimin supporters and Saudi king supporters.
Of course, it's not true if make protest to oppressor is un-Islamic. Also not true if the only right government system in Islam is monarchy, like claim from some Saudi king supporters.
Darth Ultor
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A council of Muslim clerics can be just as bad as a King or dictator. Those with power use that power. I think the best system is democracy, because while it is corrupt, there are ways that you can get rid of the President or Prime Minister. Either by a vote or by impeachment.
جوري
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what is your definition of a democracy? Today I was watching the turd Alan Dershwoitz spew his usual crap about democracy and how Egyptians will enable the 'Muslim Brotherhood' to enforce burka and other nonpolitical volatile B.S when an Egyptian activist told him what do you think is happening in Egypt o what democracy is? The people are electing their representative.. of course he doesn't think that should happen unless it is the same regime that caters to amero/Israeli interests.. because 'democracy' can only be democratic if it is autocratic catering to the comforts of Israel over an entire Muslim/Arab population .. a council of Muslim clerics so long as chosen by the people makes it democratic.. How they handle such an honor is no different than any other leaders in history.. and history has had its fill of benevolent or corrupt leaders.. you think netanyahu is righteous? or the fat turd that preceded him? Israel is as much a 'democracy' as south Africa is a democracy or Egypt for that matter..
all the best