Early Christianity + Paganism = Modern Christianity

[QuranStudy]

The amazing thing, however, is despite all this the message of Jesus Christ lives on. Despite pagan influences, the rise of secularism and the emergence of other religions, the Gospel prevails and continues to touch people's hearts some 2000 years after Jesus lived his earthly life.

That must explain why atheism is rising fast in Christian countries.

 

[glo]

That must explain why atheism is rising fast in Christian countries.

LOL
I'm sure you've been sent to test my patience, QuranStudy! :giggling:

I'll leave the above quote as it stands ... not much point commenting on it.

Peace, brother.

 

[sameer]

Thanks for the links, QuranStudy. Very interesting.

I wrote a lengthy post this morning, which took me ages - just to be zapped by the computer at the last minute! Aarrggghh .... ^o)

Some of the issues in the article you provided I cannot comment on, but these are a few comments I would like to make :

Jesus as the sacrificial lamb is a direct reference to the old Jewish custom of sacrificing animals as atonement of sin. That's exactly what Jesus did: paid for our sins, once and for all!

As for baptism and the sharing of bread and wine, these are things done in direct reference to and following the example of Jesus.
Jesus saying and doing certain things gives Christians the assurance that they have his divine authority - hence any similarities to other practices seem quite irrelevant. :rollseyes

I do however agree that there are pagan influences in Christianity.
As far as I understand a mixing in of pagan elements was largely allowed or even introduced by church leaders in the past to entice, coax or force non-believers into the Christian faith.
If you ask me, that's a sad demonstration of how not to spread the Gospel! :?
The message of Jesus cannot be spread by force, persuasion or trickery - but only by encouraging people to open their hearts to it, and by letting the Holy Spirit do the rest!

The amazing thing, however, is despite all this the message of Jesus Christ lives on.
Despite pagan influences, the rise of secularism and the emergence of other religions, the Gospel prevails and continues to touch people's hearts some 2000 years after Jesus lived his earthly life.

Peace.

How do the average christian diffrentiate what was the Gospel of Jesus and the pagan practices? Jesus would have spoken out against paganism, so everyday chiristians celebrating christmas, halloween and other pagan festivals would not be adhering to the gospel. So how can u say the Gospel prevails despite pagan influences and secularism (eg homosexuality, eating pork etc)?

 

[glo]

How do the average christian diffrentiate what was the Gospel of Jesus and the pagan practices? Jesus would have spoken out against paganism, so everyday chiristians celebrating christmas, halloween and other pagan festivals would not be adhering to the gospel. So how can u say the Gospel prevails despite pagan influences and secularism (eg homosexuality, eating pork etc)?

Huh?
That's easy!
Pagan practices have been added after the writing of the Gospel, therefore they have no Biblical reference.
Christmas trees and Easter eggs were not mentioned by in the Bible, therefore they are not Biblical ... :rollseyes

I don't know what you think the homosexuality issue has to do with pagan influences - in my mind that's an entirely different topic, which would probably require a different thread.

There is a thread on eating pork somewhere, but I don't seem to be able to find it.
Again, this has nothing to do with pagan influences, but is directly related to Jesus' own words:

What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'(Matthew 15:10)

I hope you find this informative.

Peace.

 

[QuranStudy]

How come there are gay priests in Churches?? I thought homosexuality is an abomination.

 

[glo]

How come there are gay priests in Churches?? I thought homosexuality is am abomination.

I don't know what you think the homosexuality issue has to do with pagan influences - in my mind that's an entirely different topic, which would probably require a different thread.

Can I suggest you start a new thread on that topic? I think this is going off topic.

Thanks.

 

[sameer]

Huh?
That's easy!
Pagan practices have been added after the writing of the Gospel, therefore they have no Biblical reference.
Christmas trees and Easter eggs were not mentioned by in the Bible, therefore they are not Biblical ... :rollseyes

I don't know what you think the homosexuality issue has to do with pagan influences - in my mind that's an entirely different topic, which would probably require a different thread.

There is a thread on eating pork somewhere, but I don't seem to be able to find it.
Again, this has nothing to do with pagan influences, but is directly related to Jesus' own words:


I hope you find this informative.

Peace.

I was drawing from ure statement saying that the gospel had prevailed regardless of secularism and paganism. Regarding the example of homosexuality i meant it as a secular thing.

U say pagan things have been added after the Gospel. But how come the majority of chrisitans celebrate christmas as the birht of christ? Do They think that is the right thing that they are doing. So then how can u say the gospel has prevailed when paganism has mixed with their practice of the gospel.
Does the gospel tell u to go to church on Sunday? or was this added into ure religion as a result of SUnday being a day declared as a day of rest by the emperor of Rome who was a sun worshipping Pagan at that time? Wasnt the sabbath saturday b4 that?

 

[QuranStudy]

Does the gospel tell u to go to church on Sunday? or was this added into ure religion as a result of SUnday being a day declared as a day of rest by the emperor of Rome who was a sun worshipping Pagan at that time?

Good point.

 

[therebbe]

Wait, someone mentioned "Christian countries"... I wasn't aware there were such countries. Do you mean a country with a majority of Christians? A lot people get very angry when someone refers to Arab countries as "Muslim" because they do not follow Shariah laws... so which countries are Christian, and where are the statistics of Atheism gaining more followers?

 

[QuranStudy]

Wait, someone mentioned "Christian countries"... I wasn't aware there were such countries. Do you mean a country with a majority of Christians? A lot people get very angry when someone refers to Arab countries as "Muslim" because they do not follow Shariah laws... so which countries are Christian, and where are the statistics of Atheism gaining more followers?

By "Christian countries," I meant countries with a majority Christian population. By this reasoning, Israel is Jewish country.

 

[Jayda]

Does the gospel tell u to go to church on Sunday? or was this added into ure religion as a result of SUnday being a day declared as a day of rest by the emperor of Rome who was a sun worshipping Pagan at that time? Wasnt the sabbath saturday b4 that?

The Sabbath was not changed... it is still Saturday, Sunday is the Lord's Day (which is found in the bible in acts 20 among other places). That is why traditionally we take both Saturday AND Sunday off...

 

[sameer]

I found this on the net while searching for the history on Sunday:

Among the various edicts Constantine issued was that concerning Sunday, in A.D. 321, as follows:

"Let all the judges and town people, and the occupation of all trades, rest on the venerable day of the sun; but let those who are situated in the country, freely and at full liberty, attend to the business of agriculture because it often happens that no other day is so fit for sowing corn and planting vines lest the critical moment being let slip, men should lose the commodities granted them by heaven" (Corpus Juries Civilis Cod. Liv. 3, Tit. 12:30).

In the article "Sunday," The Encyclopaedia Britannica, seventh edition, 1842, says: "It was Constantine who first made a law of the proper observance of Sunday; and who, according to Eusebius, appointed that it should be regularly celebrated throughout the Roman Empire."

This imperial law designated the day as a heathen festival, which it really was, but within four years after its enactment, Constantine (at the Council of Nicaea) had become not merely a professed Christian, but in many respects the practical head of the church, as the course of the proceedings at the council showed.

This pagan Sunday law was henceforth enforced in behalf of the day as a Christian festival. This law gave to the Sunday celebration a Sabbatic character for the first time. Eusebius, biographer and admirer of Constantine, in his Commentary on The Psalms, as quoted in Cox's Sabbath Literature, Volume 1, p. 361, indicates that from the time of Constantine's Sunday edict, the sanctity of the Sabbath was transferred to the first day of the week: "And all things whatsoever that it was duty to do on the Sabbath, these we have transferred to the Lord's Day, as more appropriately belong to it, because it has a precedence and is first in rank, and more honorable than the Jewish Sabbath."

Since, admittedly, all the Church of God kept the seventh-day Sabbath in apostolic days and until about A.D. 140, when we perceive for the first time that some began to observe the first day of the week, the question naturally arises: Why was this changeover accomplished? We have previously noted that some of the reasons given were because pagan converts, which included some of the early Church Fathers, brought some of their pagan beliefs and practice along, among which was Sunday observance. Other reasons given were that the Messiah was supposed to have been raised from the dead on the first day of the week, and the so-called "eighth day" played a role with some; another that we may note here is that of which Doctor Neander treats, as previously noted: "Opposition to Judaism introduced the particular festival of Sunday, very early indeed, into the place of the Sabbath."

http://graceandtruthministries.org/history_of_the_sabbath_and_sunday_2_p.html

 

[sameer]

heres some excerps from an article on the history of Christmas:

December 25th occurs about the time of the Winter Solistice, the shortest day of the year. The shortening days were taken as a sign that the Sun was getting weaker. After the Solistice, the days begin to get longer ...... and pagan peoples thought that was an indication that the Sun was getting stronger.

Thus, the Winter Solistice became the "birthday" of several gods: Attis, Frey, Thor, Dionysus, Osiris, Adonis, Mithra, Tammuz, Cernunnos and so forth. It is a "solar holiday," marking the time that the sun becomes apparently stronger day by day.

Mithra, was born on December 25, of a virgin. His birth was witnessed by shepherds and magicians [magi]. Mithra raised the dead and healed the sick and cast out demons. He returned to heaven at the spring equinox and before doing so had a last supper with his 12 disciples (representing the 12 signs of the zodiac), eating mizd, a piece of bread marked with a cross (an almost universal symbol of the sun). Any of that sound familiar?

---------------------------------------------------------------
Christmas even started out controversially in North America. Reverend Rel Davis writes:

The festival of Christmas has always been a controversial one in Christianity. The Puritans banned Christmas altogether and during the Cromwellian period in England, anyone celebrating Christmas was jailed for heresy. Probably the most hated of all Puritan laws was the one abolishing Christmas and probably led to popular acceptance of royalty (nb: the Restoration) -- at least the King allowed the masses to celebrate Yule!

In America, Christmas was generally outlawed until the end of the last century. In Boston, up to 1870, anyone missing work on Christmas Day would be fired. Factory owners customarily required employees to come to work at 5 a.m. on Christmas -- to insure they wouldn't have time to go to church that day. And any student who failed to go to school on December 25 would be expelled. Only the arrival of large numbers of Irish and northern European immigrants brought acceptance of Christmas in this country.

http://www.locksley.com/6696/xmas.htm

 

[duskiness]

But how come the majority of chrisitans celebrate christmas as the birht of christ? Do They think that is the right thing that they are doing. So then how can u say the gospel has prevailed when paganism has mixed with their practice of the gospel.

But even when we celebrate birth of Christ on the exact day Pogans did celebrate their holiday are we worshiping their Gods or our? It true Christiasn often use pogan symbols (24 XII - almost the shortes day in a year, christmes tree that is always green when other trees are bare, egg on Easter meaning new life when we remember Jesus) but we add to th our meaning.
n.

 

[sameer]

But even when we celebrate birth of Christ on the exact day Pogans did celebrate their holiday are we worshiping their Gods or our? It true Christiasn often use pogan symbols (24 XII - almost the shortes day in a year, christmes tree that is always green when other trees are bare, egg on Easter meaning new life when we remember Jesus) but we add to th our meaning.
n.

SOme quick points/questions.

1. Does the majority of christian worshipers know this not to be of their faith, or do they think they are doing what the gospel teaches?
2. Do the leaders/priests/teachers teach the ppl the correct thing? or are they themselves decieved/confused? or they deliberatly decieved the ppl?
3. If u know this not to be of ure religion, then y do u join/imitate ppl who are practicing worship other than ure God? Didnt jesus come to discourage this act?
4. If u are following pagan rituals then arent u not denying ure God? or shows weakness in ure belief because u are trying to capture the best of both situations?
5. Isnt religious life a test about choosing/ doing what is right and forbidding what is wrong? not about making compromises that goes against ure scriptures/teachings?


pa·gan (pgn)
n.
1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
2. One who has no religion.
3. A non-Christian.
4. A hedonist.
5. A Neo-Pagan.

adj.

1. Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
2. Professing no religion; heathen.
3. Neo-Pagan.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=paganism&x=0&y=0

 

[Jayda]

The Lord's Day is Sunday... the bible says so in Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2 and Colossians 2:16-17. The Sabbath is on Saturday, but all of our rituals were moved to Sunday very early on... the declaration of the apostles says:

"But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (ch 14 [A.D. 70]).

Maybe Constantine just reiterated that... he certainly didnt create it...

 

[sameer]

The Lord's Day is Sunday... the bible says so in Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2 and Colossians 2:16-17. The Sabbath is on Saturday, but all of our rituals were moved to Sunday very early on... the declaration of the apostles says:

"But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (ch 14 [A.D. 70]).

Maybe Constantine just reiterated that... he certainly didnt create it...

what about Christmas? and symbols like the cross? also what about having saints etc? Did jesus do these things? or revaled it in his message?

 

[Jayda]

what about Christmas? and symbols like the cross? also what about having saints etc? Did jesus do these things? or revaled it in his message?

i do not know about christmas... many people tell me it was a pagan holiday they turned into a christian one... but it is the day we celebrate the birth of christ so i dont think there is anything wrong with that, the crucifix is a symbol of our faith... not because jesus said it was supposed to be but because it kind of is the pinnacle of what we believe... the sacrifice, we look up at it and are reminded what God did for us... saints are people who are examples to the faithful... i dont know if jesus said anything about them...

 

[Keltoi]

The spread of Christianity happened fairly quickly, historically speaking, and it is reasonable to assume that many people would be against breaking away from the pagan gods. If people have celebrated a certain cultural holiday for hundreds of generations, it will be hard to stamp out the observance of this day completely. The Christian church and new Christian heads of state, whether through wisdom or folly, depending on your POV, simply changed the meaning of the observance. That doesn't mean Christianity has pagan roots, it means Christianity changed the nature of past pagan days of observance.

 

[sameer]

The spread of Christianity happened fairly quickly, historically speaking, and it is reasonable to assume that many people would be against breaking away from the pagan gods. If people have celebrated a certain cultural holiday for hundreds of generations, it will be hard to stamp out the observance of this day completely. The Christian church and new Christian heads of state, whether through wisdom or folly, depending on your POV, simply changed the meaning of the observance. That doesn't mean Christianity has pagan roots, it means Christianity changed the nature of past pagan days of observance.

To me there is a difference between culture and following the laws of God. Islam allows for cultural practices as long as it dosent contradict the shari'ah

If a person worshipped the sun for hundreds of generations and then saw the light of christianity and converted, then why would he want to keep his practices/rituals when it was clear that is wasnt part of the christian faith? Did he really convert whole heartedly?
When Jesus brought the message and converted ppl, did he adopt their rituals/days for worshiping god to coax ppl into converting? IF this wasnt his way/example, then y change the rules?

How can u be sure that things wasnt the other way around and it was in fact paganism that adopted certian things of the christian faith to create a compromise and get ppl to follow both idealogies i.e make ppl think they are following jesus when they are actually doing paganistic things such as saying God has a son (similar to the greeks saying that Zeus had sons etc)?
No matter which ever way u look at it paganism would win if ppl followed both of them, since this would have been against the teaching of Jesus.