Eleven-year-old girl gives birth in Bulgaria

[جوري]

you have failed to correctly quote my previous post, corrected 6 mins before the delightful presence of yours.. precocious puberty can result in onset of menses before the age of 9.. however normal physiological puberty brings the onset of menses in the interval stated and cited in the article I quoted above!

all the best

 

[titus]

Neither of these statements, although amusing to you on some level have any relevance to the topic or the point you are trying to make, if you ever had one!

My point was that this girl is too young to be having sex and too young to be getting married. You seem to be arguing that age doesn't matter.

I think that if a 19 year old man is knowingly having sex with an 11 year old he should be punished. You think they should get married.

I think that an 11 year old girl is not mature enough to understand the complexity of marriage, much less be able to make an intelligent, informed decision on what kind of husband or what man she will be spending the rest of her life with. You argue that since the man got her pregnant that by getting married it makes everything ok.

You say that I should not impose my standards upon others, I simply want to know what standard should be imposed, or should we follow the logic that noone should impose their standards on someone else. I ask this because if noone is allowed to impose their standard on someone else then it would seem that your stand would mean that you would allow anyone to have sex with children with no punishment. Then you seemed to argue that once someone starts menstruating then it's ok to have sex with them (consensual sex with a 9 year old as long as they are menstruating?), then you say only if it is not precocious puberty. You seem to be all over the place and I simply want you to clarify your position on this subject which you seem so passionate about. Do you ever think it should be illegal for a 19 year old man to have sex with a child, and if so when would you draw the line? You obviously would make it less than 11, so please enlighten us.

I have been making my point quite clearly. Which part have you missed, and what exactly is your point?

 

[MSalman]

the people of knowledge say that a person can never win a debate against an ignorant, lacking knowledge, person. it is even worse when we got ignorant + morally bankrupt

I Fully agree with the marriage they should get married it dose not make sense to throw the father in jail because this girl will need support etc.
And control your anger brother islamic life we don't want to be giving threats to non muslims of slapping sense in to there heads

:wa:

sister, few things to keep in mind insha'Allah. Our anger love, kindness, hatred is for Allah. By slap, I did not many physically, I meant few common sense, academic slaps. Many of these morally bankrupt ignorant kuffaar, who are not fair and balanced and argue for sake of arguing, deserve more than just few slaps. Even ta'zeer punishment is not enough to give them what they deserve for their crimes against Allah and rest of humanity.

You truly believe that? You think if an 8 year old consents to sex that it should allowed?

if she meets the conditions which I gave in me previous post then why not? however, generally speaking, in our age does 8 years old meet those conditions, the answer is no. Thus, your question is completely irrelevant - you can run around with it but it serves no purpose. Secondly, by which standards she should not be allowed to get married? Let me guess, your age based standards. Did you know that in our time even many 16 and 18 years old are not ready for marriage but how come you allow them, specifically speaking your laws?

I need to be slapped a few times? Why are there so many rude people on this forum?

it is hardly my fault if you cannot understand the language in the context. It was never meant physical. Secondly, humiliating you by exposing your blunders and flawed reasoning with harsh language is not rude.

Everyone should have the right to voice their opinion. Tell me, do you think gay men should be allowed to marry each other? If not, then who gave you the right to butt into other people's private affairs and speak on behalf of people who don't agree with you?

you really do not read, do you? It saddens me that you cannot differentiate between different concepts and what people are trying to say. First, my argument was divided in two parts: 1) saying they should not get married and 2) saying they should not be allowed to get married. Your whole argument is based upon the 2) point and it is tied to morality and inciting whether a law should be implemented or not. No one is saying that you cannot voice your opinion; however, you can run around and tell others to live life according your standards or say they should be doing this - this is nothing but arrogance.

I am sorry, your argument against me does not work because we never say gays should not get married, we are simply relaying what the Creator, the Lord has told and legislated for us. Our morality is not based upon flawed human intellect, reasoning, corrupt principles and standards. It is based upon the principles and standards of the Creator. You have a problem with this, take up your beef with Him.

I don't believe anyone should slap you, though, for believing differently than I do.

already explained above

Do you think a little girl can truly comprehend the immensity of marriage and what it will mean for her? Do you think an 11 year old truly has any idea what kind of man will make the best husband for her?

straw man! I never spoke of any age so stop attacking me and putting words in my mouth. I brought up four conditions and no sane person would say that if those conditions are met then a person is incapable of handling the marriage, except those who have dead hearts and no common sense.

Secondly, who are you calling little, immature, incapable of deciding for herself? Do you think 14, 16, 18 years old can truly comprehend the immensity of marriage? That is why, in the history of mankind, the age haven never been the main deciding factor to decide when a person is ready for marriage. This never happened in the history of mankind until the last century.

Please don't tell me that most 11 year olds have this capacity. They don't.

never did, never implied, never used age argument - another straw man. Note the emphasized word, according to you, there are some exceptions; thus, we say to you so often that do not base your moral (in this issue upon age) and extreme views because there are always some exceptions to general rule.

Then you tell me what you define as "mentally able", "physically able", and "financially able". Who decides if an 11 year old is mentally able to get married? Who decides if someone is physically able? What, according to you, should be the criteria?

first, do not bring up the age again because your own countries do not agree with each other on this and you want us to follow them. According to one country, it is fine and perfect but according to another country it is crime and girl is a victim and the guy is a pedophile, thrown into jail.

1 - mentally ready - able to comprehend the responsibilities of marriage and mentally ready to carry them out. Able to consent to marriage and comprehend the purpose of marriage

2 - physically ready - able to carry out marriage obligations: looking after husband, generally no fear of harm being caused while physical intimacy with husband and giving birth.

3 - financially ready - the husband understands the financial burden and can feed and look after his family

as far who decides when someone is physically ready, then that is based upon what is commonly known: from person's physical growth and body. Even much older women like in 25+ have difficulties with child birth and physical intimacy; so the argument of age does not work here. In Islam we have the general rule, a husband cannot have intercourse with his wife if it causes her harm (physical and psychological) and vice versa - whether he/she is 11 years old or 40 years old. This is completely different than your laws based upon age.

Exactly how was I attacking you? The people in this article are not even Muslims.

I was not talking about people in the article. I was referring to the Muslims in this thread who were arguing against you.

 

[جوري]

My point was that this girl is too young to be having sex and too young to be getting married. You seem to be arguing that age doesn't matter.

That many pages down and you haven't understood a thing it is tedious and not worth it to engage you. I never argued that age doesn't matter, what I have argued is clearly elucidated for those who actually take the time to read before blurting out a barrage of ill informed comments and then into a million byway thereafter!

I think that if a 19 year old man is knowingly having sex with an 11 year old he should be punished. You think they should get married.

She withheld her age knowingly and he engaged in a relationship with her based on that.. who is to fault here??

I think that an 11 year old girl is not mature enough to understand the complexity of marriage, much less be able to make an intelligent, informed decision on what kind of husband or what man she will be spending the rest of her life with. You argue that since the man got her pregnant that by getting married it makes everything ok.

Where did I say that marriage will make it OK?
I have stated and explicitly that there is no going back, harm has been done and it is about rectifying it not making it worst.. really that too was difficult for you? You seem to have a reading and comprehension impediment that I suggest you seek medical attention for!

You say that I should not impose my standards upon others, I simply want to know what standard should be imposed, or should we follow the logic that noone should impose their standards on someone else.

What is standard in Spain is statutory rape in England.. at the end of the day, it comes down to individuals, not your insta morality squad's manifesto in their drive by shooting...

I ask this because if noone is allowed to impose their standard on someone else then it would seem that your stand would mean that you would allow anyone to have sex with children with no punishment.

except she wasn't a child (children don't have the ability to reproduce).. the standards for such are biological and physiological not state standards or titus' opinion!

Then you seemed to argue that once someone starts menstruating then it's ok to have sex with them (consensual sex with a 9 year old as long as they are menstruating?), then you say only if it is not precocious puberty.

Again, I have never argued that, It is your desire that everything be brought down to that overly simplistic style so that it is easy for you to digest and understand.. I repeatedly stated that I don't think it is ok for 11 year olds to have sex, but by same token you shouldn't be passing birth control pills to them either.. if you are allowing with one, then don't be a hypocrite about other things that are a natural progression of that action!

You seem to be all over the place and I simply want you to clarify your position on this subject which you seem so passionate about. Do you ever think it should be illegal for a 19 year old man to have sex with a child, and if so when would you draw the line? You obviously would make it less than 11, so please enlighten us.

Again, an excellent insight into your own approach and psyche.
I am not the one forcing self made conclusion and channeling them as if said by the other party, simply because you can't wrap your mind around what it is exactly that makes you a hypocrite..
I am not the one bringing 8 year olds into this, I am not the one bringing precocious puberty and early menses into this, I am not the one bringing how will you view me if I screwed around with this, I am not the one setting up some imaginary criteria in which to sweep an entire population of people under for no more than whim without backing or insight to social, economic or even scientific aspects of the situation !

I have been making my point quite clearly. Which part have you missed, and what exactly is your point?

Thanks for tickling my funny bone.. try harder with another member on another thread, perhaps this time around it will prove fruitful..

all the best

 

[GuestFellow]

Please don't tell me that most 11 year olds have this capacity. They don't.

Well it depends. In some poor countries kids have to grow up quickly in order to support their families financially. You'll be surprised how mature they are compared to kids in developed countries. For example in Pakistan I met a 12 year old kid who was working and was really mature and it surprised me. Whether or not he was capable of getting married, I'm not sure. Though I'm certain in some countries and societies, kids are more mature than other kids or maybe even teenagers.

In regards to what age limits someone can get married, I would say as long as the person has reached puberty, gave consent to the marriage and is mentally capable of taking these types of decision then I have nothing against the marriage.

 

[titus]

the people of knowledge say that a person can never win a debate against an ignorant, lacking knowledge, person. it is even worse when we got ignorant + morally bankrupt

What person starts a discussion by declaring the person who disagrees with them ignorant and morally bankrupt? Your air of self-importance is amusing.

You declare me morally bankrupt? Exactly what do you know about me that makes you eligible to make that statement? You assume way too much my friend. Don't let your obvious hatred of non-Muslims cloud your judgment.

Is it your argument that my belief that 11 year old girls should not be having sex is morally bankrupt? Please explain further.

it is hardly my fault if you cannot understand the language in the context.

Actually, yes it is your fault. I was not the only one that took it that way so obviously it would help if you made yourself a little more clearer.

I also ask that you speak "to" me and not down to me. I will treat you with respect if you treat me with respect. These derogatory and offensive comments serve us no purpose.

however, you can run around and tell others to live life according your standards or say they should be doing this - this is nothing but arrogance.

It is no more arrogant than telling people they should live life according to your standards, whether your standards come from the Quran, the Bible or Dianetics.

I am sorry, your argument against me does not work because we never say gays should not get married, we are simply relaying what the Creator

That's a cop out. You either say they should get married or they shouldn't get married. Why you believe that is up to you, and in your case you believe that because of your religion.

Secondly, who are you calling little, immature, incapable of deciding for herself?

An 11 year old girl who likens her child to a toy. An 11 year old whose grandparents are now going to raise her child because she is not capable of doing it herself.

first, do not bring up the age again because your own countries do not agree with each other on this and you want us to follow them.

My own countries? "Us" to follow them? I don't know why you keep wanting to make this a Muslim vs Non-Muslim issue. It isn't.

I only have one country, by the way.

And this does have to do with age. In fact this entire thread would not exist and this would not be news but for the age of the girl involved. Age is central to this entire topic so it would be ridiculous to ignore it.

I was not talking about people in the article. I was referring to the Muslims in this thread who were arguing against you.

I have not attacked anyone. I have disagreed with them. You and Gossamer are the ones calling me ignorant, hypocritical and morally bankrupt.

Where did I say that marriage will make it OK?

When you said "it has happened and they tried to rectify their mistake by having a family unit!.". Aren't you saying that the marriage would rectify the situation?

You also said "the logical approach is to fix the situation, not make it worst (sic)". Were you not referring to the man staying out of jail marrying the girl as fixing the situation?

She withheld her age knowingly and he engaged in a relationship with her based on that.. who is to fault here??

Her, certainly, in the beginning. Are you claiming, though, that he stopped having sex with her after he found out her age? Did you think they would stop having sex after they got married?

Again, I have never argued that, It is your desire that everything be brought down to that overly simplistic style so that it is easy for you to digest and understand.. I repeatedly stated that I don't think it is ok for 11 year olds to have sex, but by same token you shouldn't be passing birth control pills to them either.. if you are allowing with one, then don't be a hypocrite about other things that are a natural progression of that action!

Who brought up passing birth control to them? I certainly don't agree with that either.

I just want you to clarify your position because you keep tiptoing around actually making a point.

Do you think a 19 year old man who knowingly has sex with an 11 year old girl should be punished by law or not? It's a simple question. You know my thoughts.

If you answer no, then the follow up question would be what criteria would you use to determine whether it was legal or not?

 

[titus]

For example in Pakistan I met a 12 year old kid who was working and was really mature and it surprised me. Whether or not he was capable of getting married, I'm not sure. Though I'm certain in some countries and societies, kids are more mature than other kids or maybe even teenagers.

I can see that. Some kids are forced to mature faster than others, which is a shame.

 

[GuestFellow]

I can see that. Some kids are forced to mature faster than others, which is a shame.

Or maybe not. They're mature, respectful and hardworking...just what we need here in the UK.

 

[جوري]

I have not attacked anyone. I have disagreed with them. You and Gossamer are the ones calling me ignorant, hypocritical and morally bankrupt.

I rather call you an aimless pedant with nothing of substance to impart!

When you said "it has happened and they tried to rectify their mistake by having a family unit!.". Aren't you saying that the marriage would rectify the situation?

How does trying to rectify the situation with the help of their family translate to it is OK for 11 year olds to have sex, and children out of wedlock?

You also said "the logical approach is to fix the situation, not make it worst (sic)". Were you not referring to the man staying out of jail marrying the girl as fixing the situation?

Indeed it is the lesser of two evils! I have already pointed the ramifications of his jail term in one of the posts above and let me re-quote myself:

Yeah, you think she has no clue.. but the facts are already on the table.. an infant will not go back to being a zygote and imprisoning her would be husband will in fact exacerbate an already bad situation... This is no longer a matter of prevention (as stated previously and twice, I don't think people should be married or having kids at 11) yet they have and they do.. the logical approach is to fix the situation, not make it worst.. one day this infant will grow up thinking he is a b astard child, and that his father is a rapist, even though he isn't, and that his mother is a w hore..
if they are too young to think that such definitions and societal views of them exist, then by the same token they are too young to understand imprisonment and being made into pariahs for what came naturally to them!
​

Her, certainly, in the beginning. Are you claiming, though, that he stopped having sex with her after he found out her age? Did you think they would stop having sex after they got married?

This statement is complete nonsensical jumble of words.. why don't you sit down with yourself and think of what you want to write, before putting compound words together that have no relevance or sense?

Who brought up passing birth control to them? I certainly don't agree with that either.

there you go:

http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=140910

11 year olds with birth controls..
what is the expectation exactly when you pass out BCP's to middle school children? that they'll use it to sprinkle ice cream? or that they intend to prevent pregnancy in a population they already know is engaging in sex..

Do you see any double standards or just wish to derange this into another 76 page worth of your nonsense simply because you can't admit that you don't have a point that makes such 'social mores' acceptable anymore so than being wed to the man who fathered your child?

I just want you to clarify your position because you keep tiptoing around actually making a point.

I am not tip toeing at all, If my point could slap you in the face any harder you'd have sprouted a third cheek by now!

Do you think a 19 year old man who knowingly has sex with an 11 year old girl should be punished by law or not? It's a simple question. You know my thoughts.

It depends on the individual situation and I believe I have written as much previously!

If you answer no, then the follow up question would be what criteria would you use to determine whether it was legal or not?

I didn't answer no or yes.. if you are living in a country where the life expectancy is 44 or in a country where it is normal for folks to have children in that age bracket, then I think it is out of your jurisdiction to dictate prison terms or even judgment on the matter!


all the best

 

[titus]

This statement is complete nonsensical jumble of words.

Only to those who have reading comprehension issues.

11 year olds with birth controls..
what is the expectation exactly when you pass out BCP's to middle school children?

Why are you trying to change the subject? I have not discussed birth control for children nor do I endorse it.

if you are living in a country where the life expectancy is 44 or in a country where it is normal for folks to have children in that age bracket, then I think it is out of your jurisdiction to dictate prison terms or even judgment on the matter!

I don't recall attempting to dictate their prison terms, although I certainly do believe that having sex with a 9 year old should be punished. You, on the other hand, seem to imply that if a country allowed men to have sex with 8 year olds then noone from another country should voice their opinion.

Interesting.

 

[جوري]

Only to those who have reading comprehension issues.

Didn't I accuse you of that a few posts ago and deservedly so? have you run out of things to write?

Why are you trying to change the subject? I have not discussed birth control for children nor do I endorse it.

It is very much a part of the topic.. you can't have one without the other.. anymore than you can have a child without two partners!

I don't recall attempting to dictate their prison terms, although I certainly do believe that having sex with a 9 year old should be punished. You, on the other hand, seem to imply that if a country allowed men to have sex with 8 year olds then noone from another country should voice their opinion.

Interesting.

your feelings are as inconsequential as are your opinions.
In some ancient religions folks hung their dead out in the towers for vultures to feed on, you can certainly have an opinion, it means nothing in the scheme of things-- the sooner you accept that, the faster we'll all be able to move on!

all the best

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

This is ridiculous.You cant put a label/restriction on age nor the other persons level of mentality!

Like Gossamer said, try and rectify the situation, not make it WORSE. Which it seems people r awesome at doing...

 

[titus]

your feelings are as inconsequential as are your opinions.
In some ancient religions folks hung their dead out in the towers for vultures to feed on, you can certainly have an opinion, it means nothing in the scheme of things-- the sooner you accept that, the faster we'll all be able to move on!

True, but then your opinion means the same as mine in the grand scheme of things. That never seems to stop you from voicing it.

If people voicing their opinions upsets you then I highly recommend avoiding internet message boards.

try and rectify the situation, not make it WORSE.

We shall agree to disagree on whether these two people getting married rectified any situation. I think the girl is too young to be raising this child, and this man obviously has difficulty making good decisions. I don't see how them getting married is going to help anything. It might even encourage them to have another child when she is 12.

 

[جوري]

True, but then your opinion means the same as mine in the grand scheme of things. That never seems to stop you from voicing it.

If people voicing their opinions upsets you then I highly recommend avoiding internet message boards.

.

You seem to know so much about my affect and mood as you do the feelings and conditions of folks the world over.. that is impressive man!

indeed I agree with your first comment though please allow me to add, opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one, there is no reason to actually be one-- therein indeed is where your problem lies, the lowest common denominator, you can't allow folks to voice their opinion without interpreting falsely or recasting it to fit into your personal agenda, while broadcasting your clangorous need for self-righteous humbug!

all the best

 

[titus]

there is no reason to actually be one

True. The real holes are the ones that feel the need to insult anyone who disagrees with them and make personal attacks instead of actually discussing the issue at hand. Some people have a real hard time differentiating between attacking an argument and attacking the person making the argument.

 

[جوري]

True. The real holes are the ones that feel the need to insult anyone who disagrees with them and make personal attacks instead of actually discussing the issue at hand. Some people have a real hard time differentiating between attacking an argument and attacking the person making the argument.

Indeed.. the sooner you realize it, the sooner you can work on it...

best of luck!

cheers

 

[titus]

who the hell are you

just in case you wish to loan your drivel some credence

do yourself a great service and just take a hike, you are completely inept at handling the topic!

I think this is an excellent perceptiveness into your own shortcomings and psyche!

You seem to have a reading and comprehension impediment that I suggest you seek medical attention for!

I rather call you an aimless pedant with nothing of substance to impart!

your feelings are as inconsequential as are your opinions.

I am the one that needs to work on it? Funny stuff.

 

[جوري]

I think you are making things up

You are the one bringing that baggage into this discussion, not me.

You have way too much anger inside you.

You seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth here, yet call me the hypocrite.

then who gave you the right to butt into other people's private affairs and speak on behalf of people who don't agree with you?

Where exactly do you draw the line? Or do you draw the line?

You are just a study in contradictions.

accentuate your inability to make an intelligent response on the subject.

Nice attempt to turn the tables, although failed.

Your air of self-importance is amusing.

Don't let your obvious hatred of non-Muslims cloud your judgment.

Only to those who have reading comprehension issues.

True. The real holes are the ones that feel the need to insult anyone who disagrees

I am the one that needs to work on it? Funny stuff.

Ain't it though? really glad you agree yet again!

You need some me time..



all the best

 

[OurIslamic]

Hey guys, lets keep the heated arguments to a minimum...

 

[جوري]

Hey guys, lets keep the heated arguments to a minimum...

I am as cool as a cucumber in fact I am having a melange of cukes and apples as I write this...

:wa: