OurIslamic
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Well, he's receiving 6 years in prison
Eleven-year-old girl gives birth in Bulgaria
- Thread starter Ummu Sufyaan
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Then I ask that you be more careful of the language you use. When you use phrases such as "morally bankrupt" and "ignorant kuffaar" and say things such as "Even ta'zeer punishment is not enough to give them what they deserve for their crimes against Allah and rest of humanity." regarding those you disagree with it is most definitely degrading and implies that you believe yourself superior.
No, I am saying that I disagree with you on this subject, and that we may have differing morals about this. That is a far cry from me saying that you are an immoral person.
Are you saying that if I am not a Muslim that you will not even discuss respecting each other?
Also, I never said anything like "how dare you not to respect me and give me my rights?". You are creating a straw man argument.
You should follow the laws of whichever country you live in. In Bulgaria the age of consent is 14 and that is why this man is going to jail.
If you read my quote again you will see that I did not attack you with age. I asked you who would decide if an 11 year old was able to get married. Notice that I did not ask you which age they should be allowed to get married, but what the criteria should be and who would you have make that decision.
My quote, in fact, never asks you to come up with an age that you think would be appropriate, but specifically asks for the other factors. The only straw man, here, is the one you created.
At this point I ask that you look up the definition of "Straw man argument". I simply asked a question. I did not put any words in your mouth, yet you keep saying "straw man!".
I understand your belief that it should not be based on age. You have explained it decently. You keep leaving out details though. I asked you who would decide if a girl (or boy) was ready for marriage and you sidestepped it. You answered that it would be based on "what is commonly known". I want to know, specifically, who would make this decision?
Would it be the parents? The government? Who?
Fair enough. Will you stop responding to your Muslim sister Cat Eyes also, since she also had trouble understanding your original post the same way that I did?
well guestfellow it takes a certain kind of guy to make a bride jump for joy. Its usually when she has a brain to think for herself, we dont live in caveman times now to choose our own fate without people lingering over us. Women are more powerful then men, and alot of men are ruled by lust.
But there not real men cos you can find alot of purvs around, a proper man that treats a woman with respect and marries her when shes old enough to think for herself is hard to find. An theres no love when you just marry a woman cos its the way of doing things, an certainly no love when shes just a kid, cos she will never no what loving somone with her own will is. A true happy bride is not a kid or a teenager or some woman that is weak and just wants to get married for marrying sake and pop out babies. whoo hoo big deal!
The only problem in this case is Zina, the couple should have got married first. If anyone is to blame it's the young woman for not staying chaste before marriage. It takes two to tango but only one gets the bun in the oven, so a female must protect her chastity. At the end of the day it's a domestic issue and no bodys' business. All this talk about "paedophilia" is nothing but kafir nonsense. It's a new secular western morality that I will never understand.
Aisha's age was neither 9 nor 11. Aisha (ra) was between 18-20 years old when she married the Prophet (pbuh).
According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate....
According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them....
According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage....
http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-004.htm
http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-005.htm
http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-006.htm
According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate....
According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them....
According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage....
http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-004.htm
http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-005.htm
http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-006.htm
^ The above excerpts were written by
Moiz Amjad
January 8, 2002
Al Mawrid Institute
http://www.al-mawrid.org/pages/research_detail.php?research_id=1
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.aspx?type=discussion&did=307
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.aspx?type=question&qid=375
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.aspx?type=discussion&did=293
Moiz Amjad
January 8, 2002
Al Mawrid Institute
http://www.al-mawrid.org/pages/research_detail.php?research_id=1
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.aspx?type=discussion&did=307
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.aspx?type=question&qid=375
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.aspx?type=discussion&did=293
I've actually read this before it seems strange that if this was the case that the majority of scholars are not of this opinion.
salam
Umm, how's all this pertinent to the actual thread? This is about a young Bulgarian woman, not Aisha (ra). Furthermore, now that you've tried to resurface this reformist nonsense, I simply don't buy into this modern claim that Aisha was 18 or 20 at the time of her marriage. It's quite obviously clear that it's only just another futile attempt by some reformist Muslims to try and appease the Western commie kafirs. Otherwise, why would you reformists go out of your way to try and make these claims in the first place? What does it matter ANYWAY how old Aisha was when she married? Does it really matter either way if she was 6, 18 or 80? Who CARES? I certainly don't! As far as I'm concerned the earlier the marriage the BETTER. Early marriage better ensures the avoidance of zina, that's why my own daughter married before she was 9.
Salams Lisa,
If you read deeper into Islam, esp the links I posted you may understand why.
Here's another clue:
http://www.salaam.co.uk/knowledge/ruqaiyyah4.php
"Assumptions that women’s evidence would be unreliable because of the inferiority of women in intellectual capacity, memory, or character stem from a patriarchal perspective in a male-dominated community."
The prophet came to teach Islam to chavanist men who did not treat women with respect in those days, let's not forget the fact, how these men prevented women form going into the mosque even during the presence of the prophet and him telling them to allow women to enter....they still do it now, their mentality hasn't changed much during the centuries. There is a gain to have younger women marry and keep them ignorant of Islam (that is why there's few female scholars these days), it's all to do with men's power and subjugation over women, which the Prophet came to rid, through preaching Islam.
"The very first rule of judging whether or not a hadith is reliable is to test it against the teaching and spirit of the Qur’an. Any hadith that disagrees with the Qur’an cannot possibly be genuine. " Tim Winter aka Abdul Hakim Murad.
Ws
If you read deeper into Islam, esp the links I posted you may understand why.
Here's another clue:
http://www.salaam.co.uk/knowledge/ruqaiyyah4.php
"Assumptions that women’s evidence would be unreliable because of the inferiority of women in intellectual capacity, memory, or character stem from a patriarchal perspective in a male-dominated community."
The prophet came to teach Islam to chavanist men who did not treat women with respect in those days, let's not forget the fact, how these men prevented women form going into the mosque even during the presence of the prophet and him telling them to allow women to enter....they still do it now, their mentality hasn't changed much during the centuries. There is a gain to have younger women marry and keep them ignorant of Islam (that is why there's few female scholars these days), it's all to do with men's power and subjugation over women, which the Prophet came to rid, through preaching Islam.
"The very first rule of judging whether or not a hadith is reliable is to test it against the teaching and spirit of the Qur’an. Any hadith that disagrees with the Qur’an cannot possibly be genuine. " Tim Winter aka Abdul Hakim Murad.
Ws
Karl,
Salams,
RE:
I don't understand why it is so important for you that I must only think your way and not be free to post something I think is relevant to this thread. Most of the time when I see topics like these it's often to do with Aisha's age. I didn't have the time to read every single post. I now ask you, do you really think I have committed a crime or a sin, to post Islamic knowledge on the matter? Are you the moderator here to rebuke me on what I post? After all, what is there to lose by reading and learning?
Can you please explain what do you mean by your insutlts and personal attacks on me? I do not even know who you are or what you mean. I do not know what "resurface" the "reformist nonsense" that I have "resurfaced". I am a new member here and joined only yesterday.
Salams,
RE:
I don't understand why it is so important for you that I must only think your way and not be free to post something I think is relevant to this thread. Most of the time when I see topics like these it's often to do with Aisha's age. I didn't have the time to read every single post. I now ask you, do you really think I have committed a crime or a sin, to post Islamic knowledge on the matter? Are you the moderator here to rebuke me on what I post? After all, what is there to lose by reading and learning?
Can you please explain what do you mean by your insutlts and personal attacks on me? I do not even know who you are or what you mean. I do not know what "resurface" the "reformist nonsense" that I have "resurfaced". I am a new member here and joined only yesterday.
Ummu Sufyaan
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and the man should just go and have a part-ay as if it isnt any of his business. what? it takes tu-tu tango? it sure does!
The age of consent in Bulgaria is 14. The man had sex, knowingly, with an 11 year old (maybe not the first time, but the ones after). This was no longer a domestic issue once he broke the law.
Yes, you may believe Islam may allow such marriages, but that does not mean it requires them. In such cases Muslims, and everyone else, should still obey the laws of the land they live in. This man did not.
What this man should have done, morally and legally, is to provide for this girl and their child. The relationship should remain platonic. Once she reached the age of legal consent then they would have the option of marriage, and what goes along with it, if they so chose.
Well I thank Allah that there was an entry in the English language for "imposter", lol.
You employ very subjective western rhetoric...more like something from psychology 101 than pages from the holy quran.I know scores of Muslims and they simply don't speak with your unmistakably pc parlance. Sorry but you have shown yourself up. Your statements are replete with politically correct mannered presumptions and ageist subjectivity. Real Muslims get their guidance from the quran but you sound as though you are being fed your guidance through somewhere ELSE, sprinkled over with a few Arabic words. Your very use of the loaded pc catch cries such as "male chauvinist", "sexual abuse", and the Victorian invented concept of "childhood innocence" etc has "KAFIR" written all over it. Do you realise this?
The antonym of innocence is guilt. Your use of the word "innocence" is an incorrect application. A person's "innocence" can NOT be "taken away" by someone else! This is because an ACTION of a person themself is the only thing that can turn their own innocence of a crime into guilty of a crime. One has to be GUILTY of a CRIME or be hurtful or evil before they lose their "innocence"! It's erroneous to think someone ELSE'S actions can turn another's innocence into guilt. Do you see what I'm trying to get at here? The misnomer "innocence" has wrongly supplanted "ignorance" since Victorian times when the kafir invented the artificial concept of "childhood innocence", one of the biggest frauds ever to be conceived. The two words ignorance and innocence are NOT synonymous with each other, they are quite different!
That's what me and my friends would laughingly name a "pixie" or "elf". If you were only a mere half the size of a man at age 11 then the sight of that would freak me out more than a circus act. You certainly are a different species of hominid than I! I had one book some time back saying that the average THREE year old is meant to be at 50% of their full adult height, and a 10 year old should be from nose to eye height of their adult size. The kind of 11 year old you describe sounds more like the size of one of my FOUR year olds. An 11 year old of my species is on the cusp of adulthood and we are fully fledged size by 12. I don't consider it a surprise at all that an old German maxim states that "adulthood begins at 12".
LOL. Marriage does NOT automatically mean that it will be CONSUMMATED immediately! My daughter married way before puberty but we were all of the common sense understanding that her husband would not consummate the marriage with her until she attained menses! Only erotic love play between married couple would be a thing to be indulged in, but my son in law knew quite well that it is only wise to actually consummate the marriage at the attainment of my daughter's menses. Plain and SIMPLE.
Oh dear me. Do you just listen to EVERYTHING kafir propagates? There's a thing called "propaganda", so it's also great that's ANOTHER entry in the English language I'm thankful is there! I take all such "statistics" and "surveys" with a grain of salt because I know that they are often conducted under the auspices of Western government departments or agencies with political or social agendas.
Nothing wrong with it at all, but something's wrong when someone obsessively refers to Aisha's marriage, especially those who attempt to bump her age up into the rafters. Every time someone tries this I smell BS, I smell infiltration, I smell surreptitious AGENDAS.
That's another one of your audacious suppositions! I can categorically reply you a capital NO to that. As I said before that age for my race is on the cusp of adulthood. I was like that, and so are my sons and daughters. If my 9 year old daughter was only half the size of a man I'd think she'd been either sprayed with devastating insecticide or swapped at the hospital at birth, one of the two. :giggling:
lol
You employ very subjective western rhetoric...more like something from psychology 101 than pages from the holy quran.I know scores of Muslims and they simply don't speak with your unmistakably pc parlance. Sorry but you have shown yourself up. Your statements are replete with politically correct mannered presumptions and ageist subjectivity. Real Muslims get their guidance from the quran but you sound as though you are being fed your guidance through somewhere ELSE, sprinkled over with a few Arabic words. Your very use of the loaded pc catch cries such as "male chauvinist", "sexual abuse", and the Victorian invented concept of "childhood innocence" etc has "KAFIR" written all over it. Do you realise this?
The antonym of innocence is guilt. Your use of the word "innocence" is an incorrect application. A person's "innocence" can NOT be "taken away" by someone else! This is because an ACTION of a person themself is the only thing that can turn their own innocence of a crime into guilty of a crime. One has to be GUILTY of a CRIME or be hurtful or evil before they lose their "innocence"! It's erroneous to think someone ELSE'S actions can turn another's innocence into guilt. Do you see what I'm trying to get at here? The misnomer "innocence" has wrongly supplanted "ignorance" since Victorian times when the kafir invented the artificial concept of "childhood innocence", one of the biggest frauds ever to be conceived. The two words ignorance and innocence are NOT synonymous with each other, they are quite different!
That's what me and my friends would laughingly name a "pixie" or "elf". If you were only a mere half the size of a man at age 11 then the sight of that would freak me out more than a circus act. You certainly are a different species of hominid than I! I had one book some time back saying that the average THREE year old is meant to be at 50% of their full adult height, and a 10 year old should be from nose to eye height of their adult size. The kind of 11 year old you describe sounds more like the size of one of my FOUR year olds. An 11 year old of my species is on the cusp of adulthood and we are fully fledged size by 12. I don't consider it a surprise at all that an old German maxim states that "adulthood begins at 12".
LOL. Marriage does NOT automatically mean that it will be CONSUMMATED immediately! My daughter married way before puberty but we were all of the common sense understanding that her husband would not consummate the marriage with her until she attained menses! Only erotic love play between married couple would be a thing to be indulged in, but my son in law knew quite well that it is only wise to actually consummate the marriage at the attainment of my daughter's menses. Plain and SIMPLE.
Oh dear me. Do you just listen to EVERYTHING kafir propagates? There's a thing called "propaganda", so it's also great that's ANOTHER entry in the English language I'm thankful is there! I take all such "statistics" and "surveys" with a grain of salt because I know that they are often conducted under the auspices of Western government departments or agencies with political or social agendas.
Nothing wrong with it at all, but something's wrong when someone obsessively refers to Aisha's marriage, especially those who attempt to bump her age up into the rafters. Every time someone tries this I smell BS, I smell infiltration, I smell surreptitious AGENDAS.
That's another one of your audacious suppositions! I can categorically reply you a capital NO to that. As I said before that age for my race is on the cusp of adulthood. I was like that, and so are my sons and daughters. If my 9 year old daughter was only half the size of a man I'd think she'd been either sprayed with devastating insecticide or swapped at the hospital at birth, one of the two. :giggling:
lol
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