Evolution Test!

[جوري]

Blimey!

We can only hope!

Thats a cut and cookie response. Its what I would have actually typed for you! Which i will thus post below!

You are capable of independent thought? I must applaud you!

1) No I wont prove my ad Hom. But Barney really and truely does think that the moon bleeds custard, isnt he the silly one? Take no notice This is the chap who thinks that air is water, lol, cos it has Oxygen in it! Heh. (Add some basic facts to make it plausible like hydrogen contained in both mediums)

I think this change in mental status needs to be displayed directly to your health-care provider. We are unable to treat gibberish over the web!

2) My delusions are plausible and indeed true! The flying Horses. i speak of the Burak! The horse with a womans head and its strides were mighty!
3)....and finish with a spew of baseless ad hom that will grace both our deleted item boxes!

Again, ease up on the ethanol, have someone drive you to the nearest ER and ask for a 'banana bag' specifically, they'll know what it is for.. and then come write when you are lucid!

Y'know Ambrosia, we really ought to just /ignore each other. I can argue for ever, and beat you every time, but ...my humanity really grates against such a drubbing.
Cya tommorow!

your humanity or your mamillary body is responsible for this level of confabulation? I am assuring you, if you get treated now, you might be able to salvage something of your mentation!

my thoughts are with you..

all the best

 

[Uthman]

I should probably be moderating this but you two are just hilarious.

*sits comfortably and munches on popcorn*

 

[CosmicPathos]

Panspermia! As recently as 30-40 years ago, your beloved "credible" astronomers were proposing that viruses had fell from space, traversing unimaginable distances during their intergalactic travels to finally permeate Earth exactly at the time when Earth was putting forth prokaryotes from its wombs .....

Barney O Barney, all the theories explaining "origins of life" border delusions ....

 

[barney]

I should probably be moderating this but you two are just hilarious.

*sits comfortably and munches on popcorn*

Cheers. Me and Skye have always loved to whack each other with the big inflatable hammers of Virtual Insults in in PIA's (Pointless Internet Arguement)

 

[Uthman]

Cheers. Me and Skye have always loved to whack each other with the big inflatable hammers of Virtual Insults in in PIA's (Pointless Internet Arguement)

Indeed. I remember it well!

 

[barney]

Hey Skye! I got a little paranoid that ,deep in alcohol induced spamming, I might have argued years ago, that the Moon span around and made day and night or something ridiculous. So i searched for "ahel al-kahf's" Lunar Calander in these esteemed boards and the only post found that I am talking about this matter is this one im writing right now!
Looks like the impossible has happened and you were wrong!

 

[جوري]

Hey Skye! I got a little paranoid that ,deep in alcohol induced spamming, I might have argued years ago, that the Moon span around and made day and night or something ridiculous. So i searched for "ahel al-kahf's" Lunar Calander in these esteemed boards and the only post found that I am talking about this matter is this one im writing right now!
Looks like the impossible has happened and you were wrong!

you should always account for other variables and I know how difficult that is when your thought process is linear. Many board crashes has unfortunately rendered the search feature useless unless by way of google and many threads in a mystery vault in cyber space..

However, I have a photographic memory.. unlike you, I didn't get this far by having my senses dulled in a stupor!

as a general theme, you should always account for variables, confounders, biases .. estimating a parameter by a single value makes everything you come up with unreliable and at times down right laughable.. How about enrolling in a real college course now to foster self-esteem and the art of logic?

all the best

 

[barney]

you should always account for other variables and I know how difficult that is when your thought process is linear. Many board crashes has unfortunately rendered the search feature useless unless by way of google and many threads in a mystery vault in cyber space..

However, I have a photographic memory.. unlike you, I didn't get this far by having my senses dulled in a stupor!

as a general theme, you should always account for variables, confounders, biases .. estimating a parameter by a single value makes everything you come up with unreliable and at times down right laughable.. How about enrolling in a real college course now to foster self-esteem and the art of logic?

all the best

Thats a very wordy way of failing.

 

[جوري]

Thats a very wordy way of failing.

It will get better.. there there!

 

[maroon1]

Allah's involvement is the only explanation. Even if I, for the sake of argument, accept evolution as the mechanism of origin of man, it does not explain how elements came to being. How universe came into being? Why universe came into being? Its a loop of infinite explanations and if you are so adamant to stick to non-God invoking explanations then I am afraid that you are running in infinite circles of explanations. Evolutionist's explanation is half baked, they only explain how man evolved from lower organisms, they dont explain how the things necessary for life evolved such as elements. that duty is thrown on the geologists? Then whatever geologists cannot explain, that duty is given to astronomers. So on and so forth.

Btw my life involves more than sitting on IB and hence I am off.

Good luck reading Dawkins.

1- Evolution is not supposed to explain the origin of Universe or origin of elements. Just like theory of gravity is not supposed to explain the origin of life or the diversity of life

2- You are asking Questions to yourself, and concluding that because we don't have answers to those questions to this date, then that means Allah is the only explanation. Don't you see the fallacy in your argument ?
It possible that universe originated from undiscovered physical process.

 

[maroon1]

A suggestion to evolutionists,atheists,and to even muslims who dont believe in creation
theres gona be an interview with harun yahya @ islamicboard radio,you can post your questions there,he can answer them better than any of us on the forums.and i can assure you it will be worth it.this is his speciality...you can post your questions here
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamicboard-radio-24-7/134284794-harun-yahya-interview-25-07-09-a.html
you can visit his website and read free online material here
www.harunyahya.com

I can't believe that people take Harun Yahya seriously.

Have you ever read his book Atlas of Creation ? The book is full of error. He exaggerate the age of fossils. For example, he claims that Tiger skull and Bear skull is 80 million years old, when the oldest remains known to scientists are far more recent

He also doesn't know how evolution works, he frequently claims that evolution happens by pure chance (when natural selection is by definition opposite to chance). He also thinks that transitional forms are incomplete animals;D

Furthermore, the Harun Yahya quote scientists out of context to support his views

 

[جوري]

1- Evolution is not supposed to explain the origin of Universe or origin of elements. Just like theory of gravity is not supposed to explain the origin of life or the diversity of life

2- You are asking Questions to yourself, and concluding that because we don't have answers to those questions to this date, then that means Allah is the only explanation. Don't you see the fallacy in your argument ?
It possible that universe originated from undiscovered physical process.

Gravity and evolution are two separate theories in separate fields, the cognitive model and the biological model theories are also two separate theories although in the same field.. Try to focus your efforts so you don't lose your audience with your first statement!
some theories are more believable than others for they can be subjected to experimentation, when a theory can't be subjected to experimentation, then it borders upon philosophy..
Now, you are certainly free to subscribe to the module that you desire so long as you put in in proper context.. however, what I find unacceptable is pointing out 'fallacies' in other arguments and failing to see them in yours, and considering you can't put theories in proper context, one wonders how you can manage thereafter!


Let me pose this: Humans in their modern form didn't always exist, they came from somewhere, now you propose humans and apes had a common ancestor from which they evolved.. well by the same token if we are to accept that, and trust me anyone can be game with that as per Quran:


مَا أَشْهَدتُّهُمْ خَلْقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَلَا خَلْقَ أَنفُسِهِمْ وَمَا كُنتُ مُتَّخِذَ الْمُضِلِّينَ عَضُدًا {51}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 18:51] I made them not to witness the creation of the heavens and the earth, nor their own creation;

then you might want to propose from what that common ancestor evolved-- and before that and so on.. I mean the theory deals with evolving from something, logic would dictate that you go back to a common starting point?

We don't in fact know how God created us, but you claim 'science' does, then how about you go about proving it in an equally scientific fashion that doesn't loan itself to more fairy tales .. like 'undiscovered physical process'

How funny are you?

If you don't have an answer, a mode, or a process, a mechanism of action-- I kindly suggest you take the 'undiscovered physical process' and shelf it with other relics or your own personal beliefs and leave others to believe what they desire!

all the best
[/SIZE]

 

[maroon1]

Let me pose this: Humans in their modern form didn't always exist, they came from somewhere, now you propose humans and apes had a common ancestor from which they evolved.. well by the same token if we are to accept that, and trust me anyone can be game with that as per Quran

Whether I accepted or reject the fact that humans and apes had a common ancestor, I didn't talk about this subject in my post that you quoted. So, you are responding to something that I didn't say. Thats one thing.

There are strong evidence that human and apes had a common ancestor

The evidence is the fusion of chromosome number two of humans (chromosome 2 have an additional inactive centromere and we see additional telomere sequences in the middle which is an evidence that fusion has occurred)

Also, the ERV is another piece of evidence
http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=9&t=79&m=1

I'm myself not an expert in evolution. There many articles and youtube videos that talk about this subject, so why not do some research by yourself

We don't in fact know how God created us, but you claim 'science' does, then how about you go about proving it in an equally scientific fashion that doesn't loan itself to more fairy tales .. like 'undiscovered physical process'
[/SIZE]

Please read my post and the post of the person I quoted carefully

The 'undiscovered physical process' was referring to the question about how the "The universe came into being?", not about how god created us (humans)

If you read "Malaak" post he claims that Allah's involvement is the only explanation because we don't know how the universe came into being. I was pointing out that their might be other possibilities.

I never claimed that science knows how the 'Universe came into being"

If you don't have an answer, a mode, or a process, a mechanism of action-- I kindly suggest you take the 'undiscovered physical process' and shelf it with other relics!

all the best

Is there a mode or process or mechanism of how Allah made the Universe ?

I never claimed that I have an ultimate answer on how the universe came into being, but "Malaak" claims that he has an ultimate answers and it is Allah. Do you see the difference ? I didn't say that it is a fact that universe came into being by 'undiscovered physical process' but what I said is that might be one of the possible explanation.

 

[maroon1]

Can some tell me how could I edit a post ? I don't see any edit option !

 

[جوري]

Whether I accepted or reject the fact that humans and apes had a common ancestor, I didn't talk about this subject in my post that you quoted. So, you are responding to something that I didn't say. Thats one thing.

You said:

1- Evolution is not supposed to explain the origin of Universe or origin of elements. Just like theory of gravity is not supposed to explain the origin of life or the diversity of life

and that is exactly what I commented on, for evolution to sustain itself, there has to be a starting point, so the origins of life will have to come into play in this particular theory, if you merely go back to its rudimentary component!

The evidence is the fusion of chromosome number two of humans (chromosome 2 have an additional inactive centromere and we see additional telomere sequences in the middle which is an evidence that fusion has occurred)

In theory anything is possible.. in practice, fusion has given us such things as:
Chronic myelogenous leukemia CML cells of the BCR-ABL fusion t(9;22)(q34;q11) reciprocal translocation
and

Intracystic papillary breast tumors, showed that fusion of chromosomes 16 and 1
and
Telomeric fusion and chromosome instability in multiple tissues of a patient with mosaic Ullrich-Turner syndrome

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/47652/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0


so the reality speaks differently, and I have only selected a handful because I don't have all day to labor over everything that goes wrong from a fusion/translocation/deletion/DNA breaks.

Also, the ERV is another piece of evidence
http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=9&t=79&m=1

That is just the thing you propose this as ''evidence'', but evidence denotes that it is demonstrable and what have retroviruses give us thus far?
The genus is divided into three sub families:
Oncovirinae - oncogenic - cause sarcomas and leukaemias in animals;
eg Rous Sarcoma Virus Lentivirinae - slow progressive degenerative disorders
eg visnavirus of sheep, human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) Spumavirinae - no pathology known http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/mmi/jmoodie/hiv2.html

I'm myself not an expert in evolution. There many articles and youtube videos that talk about this subject, so why not do some research by yourself

I can tell you are no expert, and indeed I have done my research!

Please read my post and the post of the person I quoted carefully

The 'undiscovered physical process' was referring to the question about how the "The universe came into being?", not about how god created us (humans)

I have quoted you directly and replied directly, you are yet to take us back to what got the ball rolling with evolution!

If you read "Malaak" post he claims that Allah's involvement is the only explanation because we don't know how the universe came into being. I was pointing out that their might be other possibilities.

I commented on only one post, as I have no desire to whittle myself on every reply you have given someone, although I can honestly point out several mistakes in your latter post especially as deals with 'Natural selection' but haven't the time nor the desire to turn this into another 30 page debate when both sides have presented their reservations explicitly!

I never claimed that science knows how the 'Universe came into being"

You claimed that:

because we don't have answers to those questions to this date, then that means Allah is the only explanation.

and

It possible that universe originated from undiscovered physical process.

and I am telling you, that if you don't like "god did it'' then provide us with something better in keeping with science or keep your personal fairy tales to yourself?

Is there a mode or process or mechanism of how Allah made the Universe ?

I have quoted directly from the Quran above, scroll back!

I never claimed that I have an ultimate answer on how the universe came into being, but "Malaak" claims that he has an ultimate answers and it is Allah. Do you see the difference ? I didn't say that it is a fact that universe came into being by 'undiscovered physical process' but what I said is that might be one of the possible explanation.

The difference is, that you don't like the response given, but you have nothing better to offer, and that is the bottom line of it..


all the best

 

[maroon1]

In theory anything is possible.. in practice, fusion has given us such things as:
Chronic myelogenous leukemia CML cells of the BCR-ABL fusion t(9;22)(q34;q11) reciprocal translocation
and

Intracystic papillary breast tumors, showed that fusion of chromosomes 16 and 1
and
Telomeric fusion and chromosome instability in multiple tissues of a patient with mosaic Ullrich-Turner syndrome

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0


so the reality speaks differently, and I have only selected a handful because I don't have all day to labor over everything that goes wrong from a fusion/translocation/deletion/DNA breaks.

Please can you be more clearer ? What are you trying to prove here ? How is that against what I said (assuming that you know what I was talking about)

That is just the thing you propose this as ''evidence'', but evidence denotes that it is demonstrable and what have retroviruses give us thus far?
The genus is divided into three sub families:
Oncovirinae - oncogenic - cause sarcomas and leukaemias in animals;
eg Rous Sarcoma Virus Lentivirinae - slow progressive degenerative disorders
eg visnavirus of sheep, human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) Spumavirinae - no pathology known http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/mmi/jmoodie/hiv2.html

what you are talking about ? Did you read the link that I posted

I'm not talking about types of retroviruses or what are their effects

The link that I posted shows that there are many instances of ERV insertions between apes and humans (and even other animals) in same exact location of the chromosomes. This is very strong and irrefutable evidence that human and apes have common ancestors, because the only way that humans and apes have thousands of ERVs in the exact same locations on the exact same chromosomes if they have inherited them form a common ancestor.

I can tell you are no expert, and indeed I have done my research!

Really ?

I have quoted you directly and replied directly, you are yet to take us back to what got the ball rolling with evolution!

I was talking about a subject, while you are talking about another

I commented on only one post, as I have no desire to whittle myself on every reply you have given someone, although I can honestly point out several mistakes in your latter post especially as deals with 'Natural selection' but haven't the time nor the desire to turn this into another 30 page debate when both sides have presented their reservations explicitly!

LOL. You mean that I made an error when I said that Natural selection is opposite of chance ?

and I am telling you, that if you don't like "god did it'' then provide us with something better in keeping with science or keep your personal fairy tales to yourself?

The "god did it" is not really better than what I said. Both lack evidence

You are also messing the real point that I was making when I was replying to "Malaak". The point that I was making that are many possible explanation for the origin of Universe. "Malaak" claimed and made a final conclusion that "God did it" because he didn't find answer to his questions. Lack of answer to his questions is not an evidence for "God did it". There are many other possible explanation for the origin of the universe and no one here is claiming that those other possible explanations are fact.

If you ask me why and how the "universe came into being" my answer is I don't know, and this is a honest answer because at the moment there is no scientific explanation for it

I have quoted directly from the Quran above, scroll back!

The verse you quoted doesn't explain process or mechanism of how Allah made the Universe

The difference is, that you don't like the response given, but you have nothing better to offer, and that is the bottom line of it..


all the best

Why would I like the response given ?How the "God did it" is a good explanation for anything ? To me this raises much more questions that answers (assuming that it even answer anything).

 

[جوري]

Please can you be more clearer ? What are you trying to prove here ? How is that against what I said (assuming that you know what I was talking about)

which part was difficult for you to understand?

what you are talking about ? Did you read the link that I posted

Indeed, if you have arrived to a different conclusion perhaps you can weave it to us in a concise fashion instead of referencing us to websites.. or do you personally not understand what you have posted?

I'm not talking about types of retroviruses or what are their effects

OK

The link that I posted shows that there are many instances of ERV insertions between apes and humans (and even other animals) in same exact location of the chromosomes. This is very strong and irrefutable evidence that human and apes have common ancestors, because the only way that humans and apes have thousands of ERVs in the exact same locations on the exact same chromosomes if they have inherited them form a common ancestor.

What does an insertion at of a virus at a certain locale denote in your book, we are plagued by many of the same viruses, ticks, bacteria that plague animals, sometimes they affect us in a worst capacity sometimes not so much and vice versa.. so what is your point?

Really ?

Yeah, really-- how about you?

I was talking about a subject, while you are talking about another

Perhaps you are just a concrete thinker?

LOL. You mean that I made an error when I said that Natural selection is opposite of chance ?

No, it means that 'natural selection' doesn't always work as is described, and that is evidenced through trinucleotide repeat expansion, where the exact opposite of where the least adapted to the environment survive..

The "god did it" is not really better than what I said. Both lack evidence

Then why the bravado?

You are also messing the real point that I was making when I was replying to "Malaak". The point that I was making that are many possible explanation for the origin of Universe. "Malaak" claimed and made a final conclusion that "God did it" because he didn't find answer to his questions. Lack of answer to his questions is not an evidence for "God did it". There are many other possible explanation for the origin of the universe and no one here is claiming that those other possible explanations are fact.

And I have already stated that I specifically addressed the reply mad scientist, either way you can't disprove that God did it, and you can't offer what is better!

If you ask me why and how the "universe came into being" my answer is I don't know, and this is a honest answer because at the moment there is no scientific explanation for it

I am not asking you about the 'universe came into being' I am asking you for the starting point of evolution and a plausible mechanism of action that we can experiment with rather than philosophize about!

The verse you quoted doesn't explain process or mechanism of how Allah made the Universe

Indeed.. I have stated that we don't know how we or the universe were created. To say that evolution is responsible for our current state but not offer a plausible scientific evidence is to yield to a lesser belief.. so what makes me awe struck really, is your lack of reverence to the opinion of others to the point of frank mockery, when you yourself can't do any better!

Why would I like the response given ?How the "God did it" is a good explanation for anything ? To me this raises much more questions that answers (assuming that it even answer anything).

Why should we like ''undiscovered physical process'' as a good explanation-- to me that raises more questions than answers, assuming it answers anything!

all the best

 

[CosmicPathos]

1- Evolution is not supposed to explain the origin of Universe or origin of elements. Just like theory of gravity is not supposed to explain the origin of life or the diversity of life

2- You are asking Questions to yourself, and concluding that because we don't have answers to those questions to this date, then that means Allah is the only explanation. Don't you see the fallacy in your argument ?
It possible that universe originated from undiscovered physical process.

Hey,
you are explaining what I said in your own words and taking the credit for it? "Evolution is not supposed to explain the origin of Universe or origin of elements." That is exactly what I said. Its an infinite chain of "theories."

"You are asking Questions to yourself, and concluding that because we don't have answers to those questions to this date, then that means Allah is the only explanation. Don't you see the fallacy in your argument ?
It possible that universe originated from undiscovered physical process."

Even if we had answers, I'd say God did it. It seems unlikely that you will have answers to these. In 5 billion years, the Sun is going to engulf the Earth. Way before 5 billion years come to passing, the Sun's luminosity will increase, oceans will boil away and you or your descendants will be melting away into the deepest cores of Earth. Alas, you will never find answers that you so desperately beseech. So far, interstellar or intergalactic travel seems nigh impossible so that dont assume that you or your descendants will inhabit other planets.

 

[Italianguy]

Hey,
you are explaining what I said in your own words and taking the credit for it? "Evolution is not supposed to explain the origin of Universe or origin of elements." That is exactly what I said. Its an infinite chain of "theories."

"You are asking Questions to yourself, and concluding that because we don't have answers to those questions to this date, then that means Allah is the only explanation. Don't you see the fallacy in your argument ?
It possible that universe originated from undiscovered physical process."

Even if we had answers, I'd say God did it. It seems unlikely that you will have answers to these. In 5 billion years, the Sun is going to engulf the Earth. Way before 5 billion years come to passing, the Sun's luminosity will increase, oceans will boil away and you or your descendants will be melting away into the deepest cores of Earth. Alas, you will never find answers that you so desperately beseech. So far, interstellar or intergalactic travel seems nigh impossible so that dont assume that you or your descendants will inhabit other planets.

He has probably seen "2012" wayyyy to many times. ;D You can tell them a thousand times that God did it, but thats to easy an explanation, humans want things to be hard on them for some reason? I like that God did it, created everything, ...pretty much sums it up simply. Don't waist your breath arguing with them bro, You could be using those breaths to pray to our creator.....and he shouldn't waist his breath either....next thing you know they will say there are to many people breathing and sucking up all the oxygen and suffacating the world;D and the world will choke on itself in 2013....oh wait the world is supossed tobe gone in 2012....oops

 

[CosmicPathos]

Please can you be more clearer ? What are you trying to prove here ? How is that against what I said (assuming that you know what I was talking about)




what you are talking about ? Did you read the link that I posted

I'm not talking about types of retroviruses or what are their effects

The link that I posted shows that there are many instances of ERV insertions between apes and humans (and even other animals) in same exact location of the chromosomes. This is very strong and irrefutable evidence that human and apes have common ancestors, because the only way that humans and apes have thousands of ERVs in the exact same locations on the exact same chromosomes if they have inherited them form a common ancestor.




Really ?



I was talking about a subject, while you are talking about another



LOL. You mean that I made an error when I said that Natural selection is opposite of chance ?





The "god did it" is not really better than what I said. Both lack evidence

You are also messing the real point that I was making when I was replying to "Malaak". The point that I was making that are many possible explanation for the origin of Universe. "Malaak" claimed and made a final conclusion that "God did it" because he didn't find answer to his questions. Lack of answer to his questions is not an evidence for "God did it". There are many other possible explanation for the origin of the universe and no one here is claiming that those other possible explanations are fact.

If you ask me why and how the "universe came into being" my answer is I don't know, and this is a honest answer because at the moment there is no scientific explanation for it




The verse you quoted doesn't explain process or mechanism of how Allah made the Universe






Why would I like the response given ?How the "God did it" is a good explanation for anything ? To me this raises much more questions that answers (assuming that it even answer anything).

Even if I have a concrete scientific explanation of why universe emerged, it IS entirely rational for me to say that God did it the way it is. I have already grown up with that and been accustomed to that. As a child, I was told God created me. As I learnt more and more, I found that sperm and egg fused to create me. The egg emerged from the follicle, ejected from the fallopian tube, made its way to the uterus through ciliary lining, the sperm swam into the uterus only to penetrate the egg. But still nothing stops me from saying that God created me. What makes you think that a scientific explanation for the emergence of the universe will prohibit me from associating it to the creative power of God? Thats just the way the mind of a believer works, as Ali Sina The Accursed so aptly, surprisingly, put it.

Not only that, we might never know what occurred before Big Bang. IF you have a slightest bit of intellect, which you dont, you should know that within the first 3 minutes, if I recall my numbers correctly, photons were captured and not free. We cannot measure, observe or detect beyond this point. We can only estimate, direct proofs of what happened in the time ensuing Big Bang and the free nature of photons will never come. Its reality shrouded in mystery for eternity.