Evolution.

[Independent]

well, i agree that there is no proof yet !
But don't give me some observations on comparative anatomy and expect me to consider it an evidence for your descent from a microbe-like ancestor, even if wikipedia said that !

Proof, no.

Evidence, yes.

As i say, some version of the theory of evolution was inevitable given the evidence that was emerging.

 

[MustafaMc]

Well, there's the fact that all species are made of the same basic building blocks of life - DNA and amino acids.

Commonality of building blocks does not imply descent from a common ancestor, nor does commonality in apperance of embryonic stages of life.

 

[Hulk]

I saw someone posting something like this "Airplanes are amazing things, we look at it and for sure it must have a designer. Actually no, it doesn't have a designer. It is a product of years of extensive research and development." etc.. I'm like lolwut. Need to tighten up some loose screws in the brain. Sad thing is someone I know well "liked" it. Haha. Oh boy..

 

[Futuwwa]

Commonality of building blocks does not imply descent from a common ancestor, nor does commonality in apperance of embryonic stages of life.

No, but it is consistent with the hypothesis of descent from common ancestor. That's all there is in science. There is no such thing as direct positive evidence in favour of a theory. There is just evidence that is, or is not, consistent with a theory.

Assalam alaikum
we already know this, so what

Well, if a complex system is present in the same way in a number of different entities, that's a pretty strong indication that the entities are related. If they'd be unrelated, what would the probability be of both having exactly the same system?

 

[Ahmad H]

I don't know why but I've always thought that the creation of father Adam was instantaneous, may be becase Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala tells us that He says "Be" and it is. So on the evolution basis why haven't we evolved into something else if humans have been evolving from the beginning. We'd probably have six arms and two heads (I could do with an extra brain).

Abu Hurairah narrated that:
the Prophet said: "The best daythat the sun has risen upon is Friday. On it Adam was created, on it he enteredParadise, and on it, he was expelled from it. And the Hour will not beestablished except on Friday."

[TABLE="class: MsoNormalTable"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Reference[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]: Jami` at-Tirmidhi 488[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]In-book reference[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]: Book 4, Hadith 1 [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

how can you say that you know that Allah created us instantaneously? Allah created everything with wisdom, so it is up to us to learn what that wisdom means. Besides, if you think that the meaning of Allah creating us on Friday is literal as in our Fridays on earth, then you should consider that the Holy Qur'an says a day could be anywhere from 24 hours to 50,000 years. A day could potentially be as long as Allah wills it to be considering it has no fixed limit, so how can you say Allah created us instantaneously? Also, the command "Be" and it is is not something that happens the next moment from the command. The command issues forth and the causes and effects which are the consequence of that command are carried out by Allah. He simply commands that something be done, and it happens. There is hikmat in everything that Allah does.

I remember hearing somewhere that Ar-Razi explained that the command "Be" and it is does not mean something that happens the next moment, but something which happens over a period of time - however long that is. So the creation of Adam (as) is not necessarily something which happens in a few seconds. I think that is both naive and simplistic. Also, I think it severely limits one's view of Allah's wisdom, since in this age we should know better that such explanations are outdated and obviously not correct. We have to consider that the Holy Qur'an may have been describing clay as a substance which man was made out of, and that man went through stages just as it is mentioned in the Holy Qur'an that he went through stages. Just saying, there isn't just one kind of clay mentioned in the Holy Qur'an. This may have been for a very good reason. nothing is said in it without reason.

 

[MustafaMc]

No, but it is consistent with the hypothesis of descent from common ancestor. That's all there is in science. There is no such thing as direct positive evidence in favour of a theory. There is just evidence that is, or is not, consistent with a theory.

If several paintings are analyzed and the chemical fingerprint of the paint is identical, it does not mean they evolved from a common ancestor. It merely means the painter used the same paint to paint multiple pictures.

 

[Abu Loren]

how can you say that you know that Allah created us instantaneously? Allah created everything with wisdom, so it is up to us to learn what that wisdom means. Besides, if you think that the meaning of Allah creating us on Friday is literal as in our Fridays on earth, then you should consider that the Holy Qur'an says a day could be anywhere from 24 hours to 50,000 years. A day could potentially be as long as Allah wills it to be considering it has no fixed limit, so how can you say Allah created us instantaneously? Also, the command "Be" and it is is not something that happens the next moment from the command. The command issues forth and the causes and effects which are the consequence of that command are carried out by Allah. He simply commands that something be done, and it happens. There is hikmat in everything that Allah does.

I remember hearing somewhere that Ar-Razi explained that the command "Be" and it is does not mean something that happens the next moment, but something which happens over a period of time - however long that is. So the creation of Adam (as) is not necessarily something which happens in a few seconds. I think that is both naive and simplistic. Also, I think it severely limits one's view of Allah's wisdom, since in this age we should know better that such explanations are outdated and obviously not correct. We have to consider that the Holy Qur'an may have been describing clay as a substance which man was made out of, and that man went through stages just as it is mentioned in the Holy Qur'an that he went through stages. Just saying, there isn't just one kind of clay mentioned in the Holy Qur'an. This may have been for a very good reason. nothing is said in it without reason.

Yeah Masha'Allah all good points indeed. Allahu Alum!

 

[Independent]

If several paintings are analyzed and the chemical fingerprint of the paint is identical, it does not mean they evolved from a common ancestor. It merely means the painter used the same paint to paint multiple pictures.

True - although this also shows how an evolutionist faces many more obstacles in proving his side of the argument than vice versa (because divine fiat can explain anything.)

If the reverse were true, and it was the case that humans were built from entirely different building blocks from apes, then it would have been very strong evidence we didn't have a common ancestor. (It's easier to prove the negative than the positive.)

As far as I can think, the evidence we have so far remains consistent with the evolutionary account. The problem is not that anything flatly contradicts evolution, but that the theory remains incomplete in some vital aspects, especially relating to the mechanism (I am indebted to you for demonstrating that to me). So it cannot be said to be 'proven' unless and until that method is demonstrated.

For me, there is convincing evidence in some of the bits that don't work that well. You could call it circumstantial evidence. Not enough to convict, but enough to build a strong case.

For instance, the development of the human embryo and birth is an amazing thing that many people find 'miraculous'. It's also, frankly, rather badly designed with far too many unnecessary possibilities for error.

The unique style of human birth (headfirst with a twist in the birth canal) is good evidence of evolution. It's just the kind of modification and adaption from a pre-existing method (a method that became inadequate for the larger size of human brains) that would you expect to see with evolution. It certainly doesn't look like the kind of method you would come up with if you were starting from a clean sheet.

Of course, it can always be said (about this as much as any other piece of evidence) that God can do as He wishes. He can construct a kind of Heath Robinson birth process if that's what He wants to do.

 

[MustafaMc]

For instance, the development of the human embryo and birth is an amazing thing that many people find 'miraculous'.

I agree in that the turning on and off of genes due to temporal and spatial orientation during the development of a zygote to an embryo to a fetus to an infant to an adolescent to an adult is exceedingly amazing to me. I see that all of these changes are pre-programed into the zygote at the moment of fusion between an egg and a sperm. I have some understanding of this process from a molecular biology perspective and I don't discount the possibility that something similar could have happened to give rise to the multitude of species. However, my current understanding is that this would be an impossibility without a Creator directing the process. Perhaps this is due to ignorance on my part, but the evolutionary theory seems woefully inadequate albeit it is "the best scientific theory currently available". You may see this as being two-faced when I don't place an equal requirement for the arrival of the individual examples of these species through a process that has many similarities the ToE on face value.

 

[Independent]

You may see this as being two-faced

That's a bit harsh on yourself. 'Tough negotiator', I'd call it.

I agree in that the turning on and off of genes due to temporal and spatial orientation during the development of a zygote to an embryo to a fetus to an infant to an adolescent to an adult is exceedingly amazing to me.

One of the curses of the modern age is, sometimes, a little too much knowledge. I read way, way too much about the details of everything that could go wrong while my wife was pregnant with my son. My reaction was not so much 'this is a miracle' as 'this is crazy, this system has far too many complicated processes that are bound to go wrong'.

 

[Futuwwa]

If several paintings are analyzed and the chemical fingerprint of the paint is identical, it does not mean they evolved from a common ancestor. It merely means the painter used the same paint to paint multiple pictures.

Nice analogy. Analogies, however, are mere descriptive devices. An analogy does not constitute proof of anything.

 

[Good brother]

Nice analogy. Analogies, however, are mere descriptive devices. An analogy does not constitute proof of anything.

except evolution :lol:

 

[MustafaMc]

One of the curses of the modern age is, sometimes, a little too much knowledge. I read way, way too much about the details of everything that could go wrong while my wife was pregnant with my son. My reaction was not so much 'this is a miracle' as 'this is crazy, this system has far too many complicated processes that are bound to go wrong'.

It is funny the different perceptions people have of the same thing. If you want to think in terms of what could go wrong, then google Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Chernobyl, or Fallujah mutation birth defects caused by radiation exposure. The irony is the very issue that you raise about 'complicated processes that are bound to go wrong' illustrates in spades the deficiency in ToE that relies upon genetic mutations as the essential source for genetic variability creation for natural selection to act upon in a positive manner. That is like using a RPG to build a house! Again, I see the transition of a simple, totipotent microscopic zygote into an entirely unique, complex individual as evidence of a Divine Creator who designed the system of life and the various species thereof. Glory be to Allah, the Creator!

 

[MustafaMc]

Nice analogy. Analogies, however, are mere descriptive devices. An analogy does not constitute proof of anything.

No, it is not intended as proof, but rather as a feather to tickle the brain cells into thinking differently.

 

[Futuwwa]

Well, you failed to tickle me. Let's explore your example. Does the similar chemistry between the paint in both paintings prove that both were painted by the same painter? Because I can think of a handful of other hypothetical scenarios that could result in that outcome. To claim to have positive proof that one such scenario is true is to overreach.

 

[Futuwwa]

except evolution :lol:

wut? ^o)

 

[IAmZamzam]

You know, I remember reading the teleological arguments of yore, from back when intelligent design was actually about intelligent design. Of the whole world. And not just this hyper-focused and mainly politically driven modern obsession with the age of one planet and the way that lifeforms reproduce. It really disgusts me. People have lost perspective, as well as their priorities.

 

[Independent]

It really disgusts me. People have lost perspective, as well as their priorities.

I can see you're upset about something but I'm not sure what? Because the argument has become less philosphical/moral, more scientific? Or something else completely?

 

[Abu Loren]

I can see you're upset about something but I'm not sure what? Because the argument has become less philosphical/moral, more scientific? Or something else completely?

I think John is a very angry young man. Rebel without a cause?

 

[IAmZamzam]

The Qur'an argues for design repeatedly, talking about the signs in nature all around us. You'll notice it never hyperfocuses on small details. It urges us to look at the big picture every time.