Ex-AtheistMuslims.com - No biological man-made life yet – Science is decades behind..

[Pygoscelis]

There is nothing here that can disprove the existence of God.

Agreed. It doesn't disprove a creator existing. But it does tell us a lot about any creator that does exist.

 

[Pygoscelis]

They say they don't know... like always. Might take a year to find out, 5 years, 10 years, 100 years... They'll die knowing they don't know this answer.

Why does it make you so uncomfortable to admit you don't know? Admitting you don't know isn't a weakness. It is a strength. It is the first step towards wisdom.

 

[Independent]

I haven't studied the fossil records myself so I don't know if they are consistent with TOE or not and I can't accept everything someone tells me.

Have you studied the fossil records yourself?

The fossil record shows a development from no life, to simple life forms, to more complex lifeforms over a very long period. No one disputes this (apart from the 'Young Earthers' who dispute the age of the Earth, but as far as I'm aware most Muslims are not of that view). There is a clear progress in development of these fossils. (The relationship between these fossils is in dispute by Creationists - which is what Shaden keeps saying but that's not my point - I'm looking to understand the overall observable trend which is not in dispute. If they are not related, what else is going on that explains what we find?)

Within that general development, you can also see specific developments (eg bones) which having once occurred become more widespread, but which never occur in isolation at inappropriate moments in the fossil record. All this is entirely consistent with TOE. There could be another explanation - but what is it? Creationist spokespeople concentrate their energies in a negative attack on TOE and have little to say beyond that. I would like to know how Creationists account for those evidences which are not in dispute, but which are described and accounted for by TOE rather than the scriptures?

 

[جوري]

Again, what is your question? life was created in stage why is this news or even an issue?

Nuh (Noah) [71:14] [RECITE]

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Waqad khalaqakum atwaran​

71:14 "'Seeing that it is He that has created you in diverse STAGES?
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Huwa allathee jaAAala alshshamsa diyaan waalqamara nooran waqaddarahu manazila litaAAlamoo AAadada alssineena waalhisaba ma khalaqa Allahu thalika illa bialhaqqi yufassilu alayati liqawmin yaAAlamoona​

10:5 It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out STAGES for her; that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). Nowise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand.

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Az-Zumar (The Groups)[39:6] [RECITE]

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Khalaqakum min nafsin wahidatin thumma jaAAala minha zawjaha waanzala lakum mina alanAAami thamaniyata azwajin yakhluqukum fee butooni ommahatikum khalqan min baAAdi khalqin fee thulumatin thalathin thalikumu Allahu rabbukum lahu almulku la ilaha illa huwa faanna tusrafoona​

39:6 He created you (all) from a single person: then created, of like nature, his mate; and he sent down for you eight head of cattle in pairs: He makes you, in the wombs of your mothers, in STAGES, one after another, in three veils of darkness. such is Allah, your Lord and Cherisher: to Him belongs (all) dominion. There is no god but He: then how are ye turned away (from your true Centre)?

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if you're not looking for the creationist account that God created us in stages and made the earth ready for us by the presence of the previous creatures, then what is it you're looking for? The TOE account as you believe is observed in fossils is your cross to bear to prove the finite details of on a molecular level and in a scientific fashion not by long leaps of faith of putting skulls next to each other and then going voila 'evolution'!​

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[Independent]

Again, what is your question? life was created in stage why is this news or even an issue?

Why is life created and progressed in an order that is consistent with TOE, if evolution is not actually the process? Why imitate TOE but not actually use it? Why make self sustaining laws for physics etc but not for the development of lifeforms?

Please, do not try to answer the question if you don't understand it.

 

[جوري]

Why is life created and progressed in an order that is consistent with TOE,

It isn't!
proponents of TOE simply evolve their understanding of how TOE should work and still come up short!
It is science, should be demonstrable not based on empiricism!
Do you understand how TOE works? that is a more fair question before you propose that others build on a premise that's faulty to begin with!

 

[Muhaba]

Why is life created and progressed in an order that is consistent with TOE, if evolution is not actually the process? Why imitate TOE but not actually use it?

God said He created the universe in six stages. He also states in the Quran that at one time His throne was over water. Thus, it's likely that the first organisms God created were marine organisms. We know from religious texts that humans didn't always exist but were created at a later stage. Had religious texts claimed that humans existed from the beginning, then you'd have a case. Also, if God can at some point decide to create a being like humans then it's possible that He created the various living things at various different times, according to whatever plan He had.

As for fossil records showing one thing or another, I can't comment on that because I haven't researched it. I can't say that just because you or some other biased people claim that fossil records support TOE, it means that it does. Secondary research can never be accepted without diligence because the researcher may be biased and prepare the study and the results in such a way that it supports their own perspective.

Why make self sustaining laws for physics etc but not for the development of lifeforms?

Please, do not try to answer the question if you don't understand it.

God did make laws for the development of living things but within that species. For example, how a creature develops from conception to birth and then from birth to death all is according to laws and not direct intervention by God.

Please try to understand before you ask a question.

 

[Muhaba]

Why does it make you so uncomfortable to admit you don't know? Admitting you don't know isn't a weakness. It is a strength. It is the first step towards wisdom.

How about you go toward wisdom and start pondering where the first particles came from and who made them. After you figure that out, then we can discuss whether TOE is true or not. Basically it is a useless discussion because no matter how much TOE is verified, it still doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. Because existence of anything proves existence of the Creator.

Why remain an atheist if all the evidence points towards the existence of a Creator?

 

[Muhaba]

Yes. Look at the whole picture, realize you are claiming God to be all powerful, and realize that he must intend the horrible suffering in this world to exist. Sure, there is good as well, so maybe he is a little benevolent, but that doesn't change all the nasty stuff he made for us and subjects us to. A perfect creator could have avoided the sadistic diseases that face us.



Did he? Last I checked we had lots of incurable diseases. And last I checked it was human scientists that came up with the cures we do have. And even if he did send both the problem and the cure, what does that tell us exactly? That he wanted to make us suffer, but only for a while? If he wanted to cure disease, then why did he put it on us in the first place?




No. These are perfectly fair questions. They are all we have to go by to judge this creator you claim to exist. We don't know exactly what his reasoning was that led him to make innocent children suffer through disease, but we do know he did that, if we presume he exists and is all powerful. And before you say it isn't for us to judge him, because we don't know everything, realize that you also judge him and deem him worthy of worship, and call him just and good, etc. If we presume an all powerful creator then all evidence I see points in the other direction.

Suffering on earth is the result of man's own doing. Can we blame God for the suffering of children from HIV because their parents chose a filthy lifestyle or because evil people injected children with HIV? Many diseases are a punishment from God to make people change their ways, as proven by the various sexually transmitted diseases. instead of saying "our lifestyle is not right," mankind tries to avoid or cure the diseases by various methods and when unsuccessful, blames God. Other diseases are also because of mankind's actions. There are many diseases spread by filth, dirty water, lack of hygiene, etc. Such can be easily prevented by taking various precautions. Individuals and / or nations are responsible for the prevention of such diseases and when they don't take the steps necessary for prevention, then can we blame God??? If you get some disease because you didn't wash your hands after using the toilet, or because your government doesn't care about sanitation, then is it right to blame God?

Still, God created the world a test. Some people will cause diseases and will therefore deserve to be punished on the Day of Judgment. Others will suffer from no fault of their own and will have their sins expiated or will earn rewards. Death and disease will strike the good and bad alike and people such as yourself who are impatient and start blaming God for their troubles will suffer even more in this world and the next because along with God's excellent qualities, He is also the Avenger. While those people who are patient and thankful to God despite their suffering will be rewarded in the next world and may also be rewarded in this world. Such people may also be rewarded for their patience by having their suffering lightened in this world.

 

[MustafaMc]

Yes. Look at the whole picture, realize you are claiming God to be all powerful, and realize that he must intend the horrible suffering in this world to exist. Sure, there is good as well, so maybe he is a little benevolent, but that doesn't change all the nasty stuff he made for us and subjects us to. A perfect creator could have avoided the sadistic diseases that face us.

Greetings Pygo, no offense intended, but what you you have written reminds of John Lennon's song, "Imagine". It seems that your perception of how the world should be is an utopian one - a Garden of Eden, you might say. Correspondingly, it seems you have rather narrow view of what God should be like 'if He existed' and this view is that of a perfect loving and benevolent father taking care of his children. Since there is suffering in this world and since people are sent to Hell for eternity simply for not believing in and worshiping Him, then you see this is not fair and just which disproves the existence of God from your view of what His nature must be. I believe that God is beyond our ability to comprehend and that it is futile to try to pigeonhole Him into some preconceived idea of what He should be like based on our limited human understanding. We are here on earth and it is real, but if there is an eternity to be spent in either Heaven or Hell then this life has an ultimate meaning only in how it relates to the next life. I mention this here because belief in God is intimately intertwined with that of belief about our afterlife.

 

[MustafaMc]

Why is life created and progressed in an order that is consistent with TOE, if evolution is not actually the process? Why imitate TOE but not actually use it?

What we have of a so-called fossil record is very much incomplete and to assume that a few seemingly related fossils demonstrate evolutionary principles calls for an extreme leap of faith. In fact the fossil record demonstrates counter-evolutionary principles in that the changes did not occur gradually over eons of time, but rather quickly and in a concerted manner. Surely you have heard of the Cambrian Explosion. The manner by which God created the various species of life is beyond my ability to comprehend. I can see the 'evolution' of a single human embryo into first a zygote, then an infant, then a juvenile, then to an adult as a possible analogy for evolution of the species, but the process of human growth and development is programmed at the fusion of an egg and a sperm and occurs in an ideal environment for its nourishment and protection. Conversely, the information for the so-called evolution of the species from a Common Ancestor is not found in that crudely simple and microscopic unicellular 'ancestor'.

 

[Ali Mujahidin]

Why does it make you so uncomfortable to admit you don't know? Admitting you don't know isn't a weakness. It is a strength. It is the first step towards wisdom.

Just curious. Does your question imply that you do know? How about coming out with it loud and clear? Do you know for sure that God does not exist? From what you have said so far, you can only say that you have not seen any evidence that God exists. Just because you have not seen any evidence that God exists does not in the least prove that God does not exist.

Ask any man who is born blind. Ask the blind man what is the color of red. His answer will give you some idea what you are talking about when you say that you do not believe that God does not exist for the very simple reason that you have not seen any evidence that God exists. Perhaps you might be able to take the first step towards wisdom by admitting that you do not really know whether God exists or does not exist.

 

[MustafaMc]

Perhaps you might be able to take the first step towards wisdom by admitting that you do not really know whether God exists or does not exist.

hmm, the evolution of a theist - atheist > agnostic > theist.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Basically it is a useless discussion because no matter how much TOE is verified, it still doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. Because existence of anything proves existence of the Creator.

Who said evolution disproves God? We had a whole major part of this thread where a non-believer was arguing the two can co-exist and it was the theists who were saying no.

Why remain an atheist if all the evidence points towards the existence of a Creator?

Because all the evidence doesn't point towards such a thing. In fact, you've got no evidence or argument here beyond "It's the default!" and "Stop asking questions and start believing!"

 

[Pygoscelis]

Many diseases are a punishment from God to make people change their ways

And many are not. Some don't even involve viruses. Some are genetic defects. A flaw in the very building blocks you claim God made for you.

And "to make them change their ways" would require that if they did change their ways it would do something to end the disease. Disease doesn't usually work like that. Often once you've got it, its a death sentence and often a long prolonged suffering before that. And often people get disease through absolutely no fault of their own.

Others will suffer from no fault of their own and will have their sins expiated or will earn rewards.

What a concept. You suffer because God wants to abuse you, or should I say to "test" you, and if you don't complain he gives you a prize.

 

[Pygoscelis]

hmm, the evolution of a theist - atheist > agnostic > theist

Actually, believe it or not, most people I know who call themselves atheists also call themselves agnostic. And I am one.

We consider atheist to mean being without belief in Gods, and Agnostic to mean being without knowledge of Gods. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Many theist I know are also agnostic. They rely on faith and don't claim to have actual knowledge that Gods exist.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Just curious. Does your question imply that you do know? How about coming out with it loud and clear? Do you know for sure that God does not exist?

No. I do not know for sure that Gods do not exist.

I have stated that many times here.

I do not know for sure how the universe came to be.

Perhaps it has always been. Perhaps it is cyclical with big bangs an big crunches. Perhaps it split off another universe. Perhaps it came to be through some unknown process. Perhaps a God created it as a toy for her to play with because she was bored. Perhaps it is a competition between two cosmic entities. I don't pretend to know.

From what you have said so far, you can only say that you have not seen any evidence that God exists. Just because you have not seen any evidence that God exists does not in the least prove that God does not exist.

Correct. And the same applies to space aliens, faeries, ghosts, and anything else we can't falsify.

Perhaps you might be able to take the first step towards wisdom by admitting that you do not really know whether God exists or does not exist.

I started there. Perhaps you can join me? Can you admit you don't really know whether God exists?

 

[Independent]

God said He created the universe in six stages.

Well, six days is what is said, not six stages. I know there are arguments about the meaning of the word 'day' in this context. (There are always disputes over translation over key words which I find frustrating and similar to issues with the Bible - even though the Qu'ran is in its 'original' language.) But even if a day means 20,000 years, it's still not remotely close to what's needed.

I have seen some attempts to associate stages in the Earth's history to six stages in the Qu'ran but these are entirely speculative - you could invent 3, 9, 20 stages just as easily.Also, even if you somehow contrive 6 stages of development, in real life they are not the sdame length. Also, the Earth was very far from the first thing that was created in this universe.

if God can at some point decide to create a being like humans then it's possible that He created the various living things at various different times, according to whatever plan He had.

Of course - He can do whatever He wishes - but strangely, He has decided to create them in a certain order. He also decided to create other near-human species (Neanderthal and Denisovans) and then allow them to become extinct very recently. But this does not fit with anything in the scriptures. I think the scriptures have to be understood metaphorically, they do not assist with understanding our development.

God did make laws for the development of living things but within that species. For example, how a creature develops from conception to birth and then from birth to death all is according to laws and not direct intervention by God

That's my point - why has He made laws in every other aspect of life and the world, but not in this? Why start off building a mechanism for evolution (genetics) but then not finish it? Even with a religious context, it doesn't make sense with the rest of creation, it's not logical. You can tell me He has his own logic and humans can't understand it - but if his logic isn't human, then why call Islam a logical religion?

 

[observer]

No. I do not know for sure that Gods do not exist.

I have stated that many times here.

I do not know for sure how the universe came to be.

I think this is a really important point - it's been made a few times in this thread but bears repeating.

Atheists are so often accused of arrogance, of "thinking they know it all" but it's the exact opposite. We happily admit that we don't know it all, far from it. Anything not logically impossible is possible. God is not logically impossible so there must be the chance of there being a god.

I'm happy with that - there might be. But I'm certain in my own mind that none of the religions we have is correct.

I know that in a number of Islamic countries people are taught that atheists are evil (my Arab students are always shocked when they find out I'm an atheist - one Saudi woman said to once "but they always told us that atheists are bad") but actually, most of us are quite nice! And atheists, because of our lack of scriptures and dogma, are often (not always of course) amongst the most tolerant of people. If you look closely in the press and on the web, you'll find that a lot of the people demanding freedom of religious practice and freedom from religious persecution are atheists.

So I stand by science as the path towards greater knowledge of the universe, but I don't pretend that it has all the answers (yet :shade.

 

[Gator]

Suffering on earth is the result of man's own doing. Can we blame God for the suffering of children from HIV because their parents chose a filthy lifestyle or because evil people injected children with HIV? Many diseases are a punishment from God to make people change their ways, as proven by the various sexually transmitted diseases.

What exactly did the children do to be punished by HIV?

Just curious as I would imagine a ultrapowerful creature could have maybe come up with a more effective and humane way of dealing with this. Aren't the parents already going to Hell, so he has to torture and kill their kids here too?

What if the wife who loves her kids terribly, has a slimebag cheating husband, which she didn't know about. So the kids have HIV (which the father couldn't care less about) and the wife has to watch her kids (and possibly herself) go through the anguish of HIV.

And could you also draw the line for me how this evil causes earthquakes and typhoid?

Bottom line, don't pay interest or eat bacon, otherwise I'll torture and kill you kids. This is just the result of primitive tribal thinking.