Exactly what kind of Bible did the Christians in Muhammad's (pbuh) time have?

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Please, do not spread your ignorance in an Islamic forum, wherever that may be. That would only embarrass yourself. In general, muslims know about the message of Jesus (pbuh) and the origin of christianity better than christians themselves. Aprender was right. I am a muslim, and even I am actually quite embarrassed for your own lack of knowledge about bible.


My area of expertise is Linguistics, phonology and language change and I've done some research on translation as well. I agree 100% that the NT isn't the verbatim of Jesus, that means that no one actually sat down and wrote everything Jesus said everytime he spoke and that they were written by people listening to his apostles teaching. I'm not going to argue as to the why, but it's what everyone seems to agree on: it was written in the koine Greek. Let me ask you this question: what is the most important thing in a translation? Meaning or word for word? If you were raised in a bilingual family and could read and write the two languages perfectly, do you think you could listen to the teachings of someone and then write those teachings in your other language effectively? I will say yes for reasons that all of my studies say it is possible to do so.

If to believe something to be the truth you need the actual words of the person who said it, that's your prerogative and I can't change that and that's fine with me.
Did you know that paul/saul never even met Jesus (pbuh)? And he wrote books in the bible based on his own opinions about what Jesus said?
If you read the NT, you should know that he met him, but that's subject to your own beliefs, but let's assume that since we're talking about what is written in the NT, it is true. Or at least assume that what I wrote about Saul/Paul was based on my beliefs. Acts 9: 5-6

We could go on and on and on.... But I'm not going to argue about the validity of the Bible because that's based on faith, as I'm not going to slander the Qu'ran because that would not be very respectful. I made my own honest inquiry into Islam and the Qu'ran before I became Christian because I believed it would be hypocrite of me not to do so. I'm saying it is possible to have a Bible carrying the message of God, you're saying it's impossible and only the Qu'ran can fit the bill.

In the end, it wasn't about which book was right but my own relation with God and His relationship with me. Christians and Jews are called people of the Book but it seems to me that if they're not careful, muslims will inherit that title.

Respectfully yours
 
My area of expertise is Linguistics, phonology and language change and I've done some research on translation as well.

Wow I am surprised.
I am not a linguist expert, but I speak 4 languages, and anyone who speak 2 languages or more would certainly understand that there is no such thing as a perfect translations, meaning that no translation would ever able capture the whole meaning of the original language, especially if the orginal language is very dense with a lot of nuances and contexts such as the semitic languages.
Also, for someone who claimed to be an expert of linguistics blah blah, I am surprised you did not know that the orginal works written by caesar, aristotle, and plato survived.

I agree 100% that the NT isn't the verbatim of Jesus, that means that no one actually sat down and wrote everything Jesus said everytime he spoke and that they were written by people listening to his apostles teaching. I'm not going to argue as to the why, but it's what everyone seems to agree on: it was written in the koine Greek.


No one here disputed the fact that the first bible were likely to be written in koine greek, but unless you are extremely ignorant about Jesus (pbuh), you and I know that is not the language that Jesus (pbuh) spoke to his disciples.
So if you don;t have the source language, the original sayings of Jesus, how do you know that the koine greek bible is authentic?
(that is rethorical question by the way, and the answer is "no" if you are still not getting it).
That means, there is no way for you nor for every bible scholars that ever lived (and they have admitted it, if they are honest that is) to ascertain that the what is written in the bible about jesus sayings were actually his true and real sayings and messages and the way they were intended to be within particular contexts.



If to believe something to be the truth you need the actual words of the person who said it, that's your prerogative and I can't change that and that's fine with me.

Of course in order to arrive to the truth you have to make sure that the words are actually real and the texts are actually atuthentic, and not just faked or made-up by some early unknown writers (eg. bible).
But it seems you have very low standards and criteria of the truth.


If you read the NT, you should know that he met him, but that's subject to your own beliefs, but let's assume that since we're talking about what is written in the NT, it is true. Or at least assume that what I wrote about Saul/Paul was based on my beliefs. Acts 9: 5-6


Really, as I've said before, do not even attempt to tell lies about your own religion in Islamic forum, because we will quickly expose you.
Saul met Jesus?
Here's a little info for you:
Saul was among the biggest enemies of Jesus before his ascension, but he never actually met Jesus. And then after Jesus' ascension, Saul claimed that he met jesus in his dream and the wrote fictions based on his claim. and the fiction that saul wrote became the foundation of nicene creed christianity.
That would be like George BUsh claiming he met Osama bin laden in his dream and start preaching the gospel of osama bin laden according to George bush.

I understand it is everyone's rights to choose their belief, I am merely pointing out att the lack of evidence and proof, the absurdities, the illogicals, the contradictions, and the fictitious nature of your belief.


We could go on and on and on.... But I'm not going to argue about the validity of the Bible because that's based on faith,

Exactly.
Your belief in bible is totally based on belief only, and not supporting by the evidence (that they were the real teachings of Jesus)

as I'm not going to slander the Qu'ran because that would not be very respectful. I made my own honest inquiry into Islam and the Qu'ran

Oh I'm not worried at all if you make discussions about the Qur'an. Please start a new thread if you wish, you may have a look in the past threads discussions about the Qur'an in this forum as well.
Al Qur;an has withstood every single and every kind of scrutinizations, probes, etc, and yet nothing has had any impact, it still still 100% preserved, millions of people from every corner in the world fully memorize it down to a dot and a t. This is very much unlike bible, whose first version (which did not survive) was not even in the language of the main actor, and which comes in god knows how many versions with different number of books and different interpretations, with each sect of christianity differing on which version is the most correct one.


In the end, it wasn't about which book was right but my own relation with God and His relationship with me. Christians and Jews are called people of the Book but it seems to me that if they're not careful, muslims will inherit that title.


Again, You claim you have researched the Qur'an but your statement above clearly shows your lack of understanding of the meaning of the people of the book. Anyway, Qur'an literally means "recitation" not "book".
Your claims of this and that are getting more shaky by each claim you made.
 
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JPR, you have not responded to my question and queries to you in the above posts (and hence I am starting to wonder if you actually believe it so):

Do you really believe that the god you worship was actually a man named Jesus who spoke koine greek in 350 ad?
 
Really, as I've said before, do not even attempt to tell lies about your own religion in Islamic forum, because we will quickly expose you. Saul met Jesus? are you that ignorant or are you so delusional or are you that desperate in your own shaky belief that you even deceive yourself? Here's a little info for you: Saul was among the biggest enemies of Jesus before his ascension, but he never actually met Jesus. And then after Jesus' ascension, Saul claimed that he met jesus in his dream and the wrote fictions based on his claim. and the fiction that saul wrote became the foundation of nicene creed christianity.

I'm not lying, just exposing my beliefs. Since you said that Saul/Paul never met Jesus, I thought I would at the very least provide the explanation on why I would say such a thing, and if you read the actual passage, you wouldn't say it was in a dream. If I am to quote from the Qu'ran, I will do it faithfully as it is written and not try to deform it so I would appreciate the same in return. I am not trying to call you a liar, I am exposing my beliefs for you to understand why I say what I say.

And you are right, Saul was the biggest ennemy of Jesus and Christians. He persecuted them and wanted them to die and he even approved the execution of an apostle of Jesus! That's why I believe his story to be so great. Imagine this story if it was written in the Qu'ran about someone persecuting muslims and after having an apparition from Muhammad, he was to change completely and become one of Islam's greatest protector and contributor!

Back to the subject: yes, I believe the Bible was inspired by God and yes, I all have for it is my faith. As no one can scientifically prove His existence, no one can prove that the Bible is from Him either because that would go against free-will, and it wouldn't be called faith but knowledge. Faith is all I have, just as Abraham had only faith when God asked him to kill his son.

Respectfully yours
 
Do you really believe that the god you worship was actually a man named Jesus who spoke koine greek in 350 ad?


No, God speaks every language on the planet, extinct, existing and to come. Jesus wasn't God but a part of Him, His son, and no, Jesus didn't speak koine greek 350 ad because he was dead by that time, and no, I don't think he spoke koine Greek while he was alive. I'm not sure where you want to go with this question as I already plainly said that I did not believe the Gospels were written by someone who was recording the exact words coming out of Jesus' mouth. The only one who wrote a Gospel that was an actual Apostle is John and he wrote it many years after Jesus died.

And no, the God I worship is not Jesus but God. I'm not going to start talking about the trinity in here, as I believe this is why you are referring to Jesus as my god.

Hope this clears up my position for you and if you want to know what the trinity represents for me, I can send you a PM or you can direct me to a thread on the trinity and I will be glad to explain myself.

Respectfully yours
 
As has been stated many times. Keep all debates related to the topic and not an opinion of the person posting. I an unapproving the last view posts until I can figure out how to fix the mess without loosing any valid replies. Some interesting points have been brought out and deserve to be answered, so I am not going to delete the posts, but I am going to remove any words directed to a person and not the topic.
 
Contrary to the claims of your lies, Caesar, aristotle and plato WROTE their literary works themselves, in bronze tablets and scrolls, and many of which still survive until now, kept by many museums and institutions in europe and minor asia

Generally speaking, the older the manuscript copies, the better. The oldest
manuscript for Gallic Wars is roughly 900 years after Caesar’s day. The two
manuscripts of Tacitus are 800 and 1,000 years later, respectively, than the
original. The earliest copies of Homer’s Iliad date from about 1,000 years after
the original was authored around 800 B.C. But with the New Testament, we have
complete manuscripts from only 300 hundred years later. Most of the New
Testament is preserved in manuscripts less than 200 years from the original, with
some books dating from a little more than 100 years after their composition and
one fragment surviving within a generation of its authorship. No other book from
the ancient world has as small a time gap between composition and earliest
manuscript copies as the New Testament

“In the original Greek alone, over 5,000 manuscripts and manuscript fragments or
portions of the NT have been preserved from the early centuries of Christianity.
The oldest of these is a scrap of papyrus containing John 18:31-33, 37-38, dating
from A.D. 125-130, no more than forty years after John’s Gospel was most
probably written” (Craig L. Blomberg, “The Historical Reliability of the New
Testament,” Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics, pp. 193-94).

It is unfortunate that you'd rather this cognitive conservatism than plain defects smacking you in the face. Be that as it may, No Muslim here wants to convince you of anything, this is an Islamic forum, seems the onus is on you to refute scholars including staunch biblical scholars like Bruce Mitzger of the gross alterations/subtractions/addendums, not to mention complete deviance of what preceded and proceeded.
The New Testament is the most accurately copied book from the ancient world.
Textual scholars Westcott and Hort estimate that only one-sixtieth of its variants
rise above “trivialities,” which leaves the text 98.33 percent pure. Noted historian
Philip Schaff calculates that of the 150,000 variants known in his day, only 400
affected the meaning of a passage; only 50 were of any significance; and not even
one affected an article of faith (Companion to the Greek Testament and English
Version, p. 177).

Many of the apparent discrepancies in the gospels, Acts and the writings of Paul –
minor as they are – disappear once we judge ancient historians by the standards of
their day rather than ours. As Craig L. Blomberg writes, “In a world which did not
even have a symbol for a quotation mark, no one expected a historian to
reproduce a speaker’s words verbatim”

The New Testament was written by eyewitnesses and contemporaries of Jesus.
For example, Luke probably wrote his gospel around 60 A.D., before he wrote
Acts. Since Jesus died around 33 A.D., this would place Luke only 27 years after
the events, while most eyewitnesses – and potentially hostile witnesses – were
still alive and could have refuted Luke’s record.

Now, this is is what seals the deal for me:
The 40 men who penned the scriptures over a period of 1,500 years insisted that
their message came from God. Many were persecuted and even killed for their
faith. Of the 11 faithful apostles plus Paul, only John escaped a martyr’s death,
although he was boiled in oil and banished to Patmos; even at that, he continued
to boldly proclaim divine truth...

Ainmazg! Enyoreve can raed waht I am wirtnig and konw waht I maen eevn tghuogh I mix up all the lttres ecxpet the frsit and lsat one!

Now imagine if a scribe forgot only one letter because he was careless... Such an error would be easily corrected.

Was trying to show this:


The text of an uncial contains all capital letters, with no spaces between the words, and with no punctuation. In this type of manuscript, if the end of a line was reached in the middle of a word, the copyist simply went to the next line, continuing with the rest of the word. For comparison, consider the passage below in uncial-like script.

Uncial Manuscript Example - Codex Sinaiticus, Romans 6:23–8:5

NOTEVERYONEWHOSAYSTOMELORDLORDWILLENTERTHEKINGDOMOFHEAVENBUTONLYHEWHODOESTHEWILLOFMYFATHERWHOISINHEAVEN
With this type of script, it is easy to imagine even the most careful copyist making a minor mistake such as dropping off a letter, interposing two letters, repeating a line, or skipping a line. The vast majority of the supposed two hundred thousand mistakes in the Greek manuscripts are just such scribal slips of the pen. These errors are very easily detected and corrected by the scholars who study the Greek text of the New Testament. They have absolutely no effect on the integrity of the Greek New Testament.

I can keep going:
Papias, born in 60 A.D., records what the old apostle John told him about the writing of the gospels: "Mark, having become Peter's interpreter, wrote accurately all that he remembered; though he did not record in order that which was done or said by Christ. For he neither heard the Lord nor followed Him; but subsequently, as I said, [attached himself to] Peter who used to frame his teaching to meet the [immediate] wants of his hearers; and not as making a connective narrative of the Lord's discourses.' So Mark committed no error, as he wrote down some particulars just as he recalled them to mind. For he took heed to one thing, to omit none of the facts that he heard, and to state nothing falsely in his narrative of them."

Tacitus, the leading historian of Imperial Rome writes: "The author of that name (Christian) was Christ who in the reign of Tiberius suffered punishment under his Procurator Pontius Pilate," while the Jewish historian Josephus writes, "There was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man for he was a doer of wonderful works -- a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day ..."

Although, to answer the question of the post, Christians in Muhammad's time could have had a Catholic-influenced Bible. Although I don't think it really matters because I doubt everyone could read like today, so people would depend upon teachers to read them the Bible and depending on your geographic location, different doctrines could emerge.


Hope this answers all the questions everyone has and clears it all up
 
Uhh, can we go back to talking about the bible being used in the Arabian desert 1400 years ago? Old and new testaments...
 
Jesus wasn't God. but a part of Him

Interesting.
What sect of christian are you?
a trinitarian would say that jesus was God, while a unitarian would say Jesus was not God.


and no, Jesus didn't speak koine greek 350 ad because he was dead by that time, and no, I don't think he spoke koine Greek while he was alive. I'm not sure where you want to go with this question as I already plainly said that I did not believe the Gospels were written by someone who was recording the exact words coming out of Jesus' mouth.

The reason I asked is because you keep saying the the current bible (anyway, which bible version are you referring because there are like tens of thousands of versions) is a faithful translation of the koine greek bible from 350 ad.
So, how do we know that the gospels in the 350 ad bible is really the gospel of jesus and can you provide evidence and proof for that?


The only one who wrote a Gospel that was an actual Apostle is John and he wrote it many years after Jesus died.

Can you provide evidence please.
Because all bible scholars agree that the gospel of john was actually not written by John.
From bible scholars themselves we know that with the exception of books written by saul of tarsus, all other books in the NT were written by anomyous authors.
Either you have new information that is not available to every bible scholars in the past 2,000 years, or you have very little knowledge about your bible.

So since the books of the NT were written many years after the departure of the main actor and the death of the witnesses, and by anonymous authors, and in different language to boot, how do you make sure that the words (ok, I will give you leniency, the meaning of the words) in the bible are actually the same meanings as uttered by the main actor of the books?


Back to the subject: yes, I believe the Bible was inspired by God and yes, I all have for it is my faith.

I am glad that you finally admit that there is no evidence of the authenticity of the bible and you only rely on your faith. If you had said earlier, that would have saved us a lot of time, instead of you kept claiming that current bible (whichever version that maybe) is authentic translation of the original.


Faith is all I have, just as Abraham had only faith when God asked him to kill his son.

Allah sent angels to Ibrahim (pbuh).
Are you claiming you are a prophet and were visited by an angel?

It is also very ironic that you used prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) as comparison. Ibrahim (p) actually used logic, reason, and evidence to arrive at conclusion that God must be one and all powerful. He rejected God cannot be human, and God cannot be statue, and God cannot have a son, and he didn't worship son of god nor spirit (no matter how holy a spirit can be). That's why people now call that Ibrahim was the father of strict monotheism.
 
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Uhh, can we go back to talking about the bible being used in the Arabian desert 1400 years ago? Old and new testaments...

Probably the same that we have now, otherwise I wouldn't call it a Bible ;) Pretty much the same as saying "what kind of Qu'ran was there 700 years ago?". But that's a Christian point of view and hotly debated as I can see.

Here's what I found:

According to early Christian records there were actual Arabic translations of the New Testament that had been translated during the time of Muhammad:

"The Gospels were translated into Arabic from the original Greek as well as Coptic and Syrian versions. Barhebreus writes of an Arabic translation made by a monophysite named Johannes, by the order of an Arab prince in A.D. 640. Oldest extant fragments of Arabic translations from the Greek date from the early ninth century. The oldest extant translation in the Syriac also dates back to the same time. It is likely, however, that portions of the Gospels were rendered into Arabic at a much earlier date that that mentioned above. George, a bishop of the Arabs of Mesopotamia, wrote a Scholia on the Scripture around the sixth century. But it appears that Christian teaching and preaching in the sixth century (A.D.) Arabia was done mainly by quoting from the Syriac or Ethiopic scripture and then giving a free rendering of it in Arabic ..." (Abdiyah Akbar Abdul-Haqq, Sharing Your Faith with a Muslim [Bethany House Publishers, Minneapolis MN, 1980], p. 29)

"A Coptic version of the New Testament was current toward the end of the third century... The Gospels were translated into Arabic from the Greek, Syriac, and Coptic versions. Barhebraeus speaks of such a translation made between A.D. 631-640. George, bishop of Arab tribes of Mesopotamia, a friend of James of Edessa (d. A.D. 578) wrote a Scholia on the Scriptures. According to Al-Baidhawi and other Muslim commentators, their prophet received instruction from learned Christians like Warqa b. Naufal, Jubra and Yasara (Baidhawi on Sura 16:105). Also, traditions relate how the prophet used to stop and listen to these two men as they read aloud the Books of Moses (Torah) and the Gospels (Injil). Apparently there was a translation of portions of the New Testament that was extant in Mecca during the rise of Islam. Such a translation must have existed along with the full versions of the New Testament in Syriac and Syriac Lectionaries." (Ibid., p. 56)

From muslim sources:

Islamic sources affirm that certain portions of the Bible had been translated into Arabic during the time of Muhammad:

Narrated 'Aisha:

The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic. Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 605)

"…Waraqa had been converted to Christianity in the Pre-lslamic Period and used to write Arabic and write of the Gospel in Arabic as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight..." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 478)

"…Ka'b read the Torah and said: The Apostle of Allah has spoken the truth. Abu Hurayrah said: I met Abdullah ibn Salam and told him of my meeting with Ka'b." (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 3, Number 1041: Narrated Abu Hurayrah)

"…(Muhammad's father) passed by a woman of the Kath'am (tribe) whose name was Fatimah Bint Murr and who was the prettiest of all women, in the full bloom of her youth and the most pious and had studied the scriptures; ..." (Ibn Sa'd's Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, p.104)

According to the Mishkat al-Masabih, Book XXVI, ch. XXXIX, pp. 1371, 1372:

Khaithama b. Abu Sabra said: I came to Medina and asked God to grant me a good companion to sit with and He granted me Abu Huraira. I sat with him and told him I had asked God to grant me a good companion to sit with and that he suited me. He asked where I came from and I replied that I belonged to al-Kufa and had come desiring and seeking good. He then said, "Do you not have among you Sa'd b. Malik whose prayers are answered, Ibn Mas'ud who looked after God's messenger's water for ablution and his sandals, Hudhaifa who was God's messenger's confident, 'Ammar to whom God gave protection from the devil at the tongue of His Prophet, and Salman who was a believer in the two Books? meaning THE INJIL and the Qur'an."

All these traditions presume the existence of Arabic translations of certain portions of the Holy Bible, if not all of it.

Interestingly, the hadith reports that Waraqa even knew how to read Hebrew

Hope this answers the topic
 
The reason I asked is because you keep saying the the current bible (anyway, which bible version are you referring because there are like tens of thousands of versions) is a faithful translation of the koine greek bible from 350 ad.
So, how do we know that the gospels in the 350 ad bible is really the gospel of jesus and can you provide evidence and proof for that?
See post above for my answer. Although you can't prove it isn't true either so we're in a stalemate.


Can you provide evidence please.
Because all bible scholars agree that the gospel of john was actually not written by John.
From bible scholars themselves we know that with the exception of books written by saul of tarsus, all other books in the NT were written by anomyous authors.
Either you have new information that is not available to every bible scholars in the past 2,000 years, or you have very little knowledge about your bible.

So since the books of the NT were written many years after the departure of the main actor and the death of the witnesses, and by anonymous authors, and in different language to boot, how do you make sure that the words (ok, I will give you leniency, the meaning of the words) in the bible are actually the same meanings as uttered by the main actor of the books?

Which scholars are you talking about? Again, I will refer you to a post above with many different sources from Bible scholars naming the authors and giving dates. I would love to investigate more if you gave me sources and places.


Although this is enjoyable, I believe we are getting out of the context of the thread and I gave what I believe is a good answer from muslim and christian sources. If you want to keep this discussion, another thread would be appropriate.

Respectfully yours
 
I have a quick question I'd like answered...

I'm fairly certain that the Arab Christians and Jews who were with Muhammad (pbuh) did not have the exact same Bible that we have today... (Or did they?) My question is, what exactly did they have, and what would have been available to them, or even to Muhammad (pbuh) at that time?

The simple answer would be that very little would have been available. What they would have had in that part of the world likely was gnostical, but this is conjectural. It is know that the Christians in that area were spurious sects. This is known history. These sects very likely interacted with Muhammed and his associates.
 
The simple answer would be that very little would have been available. What they would have had in that part of the world likely was gnostical, but this is conjectural. It is know that the Christians in that area were spurious sects. This is known history. These sects very likely interacted with Muhammed and his associates.

So it seems like we're getting conflicting responses from our Christian members... Does anyone know of any evidence from the area that would give us a more concrete answer?
 


So it seems like we're getting conflicting responses from our Christian members... Does anyone know of any evidence from the area that would give us a more concrete answer?

A simple introduction to the Bible. You could refer to Geisler and Nix "A General Introduction to the Bible" AT Robinson's work on Textual Criticism or Scrivener's work.

What you would do with this information is gain an understanding of what manuscripts would have been in circulation during the lifetime of Mohammed. Most people with a basic understanding of this history would know that for the Old Testament it was (and still is) the Masoretic Text or the Septuagint (Greek translation of the OT). The Septuagint is quoted in the NT and pre-dates the Masoretic text. Some put the Masoretic text around 700AD some to 500AD. So its possible that a copy could have been in Arabia. It is likely that if there was a synagoge in the area, the Jews had a copy of their Scriptures. For the New Testament, my research hasn't found an earlier translation into Arabic before 867AD. It is not clear to me that Mohammed would have in his possession a copy of the NT in his language.

Given that Mohammed could not read, no translation would be useful to him. It is possible that there was an earlier translation that what we have, but I can't find any evidence for one. If there was a copy of the New Testament in that area, it was likely in a different language, perhaps Syriac.

Using the Qur'an's information regarding its presentation of Christianity, such as the story of Jesus making a clay bird and making it come to life, shows that Mohammed encounted gnosticism rather than biblical Christianity. I am still trying to ascertain where Mohammed heard that the Trinity was God, Jesus and Mary....in other words, how did Mohammed learn about Christianity?

My suggestion is that you seek to base your understanding from some of the resources I mentioned.
 
My suggestion is that you seek to base your understanding from some of the resources I mentioned.

but when the understanding is 'base' what hope can there be for any sort of useful dialogue. For instance your base understanding that the Islamic belief of the trinity includes Mary? Do you want to do some minor research before writing?.
There is so much to account for in the Quran that isn't even common knowledge or present at all in your bibles. Ahel Al'kahf for instance, have you a record of them? Zhu El qyrnyen? Jesus' speaking as an infant?

Common knowledge that you speak of should also enable you the understanding that Judaism didn't exist in books but was an oral tradition and the printing press wasn't invented until the 1500's so the messenger's acquisition of books whether or not he was literate would have been next to impossible. Also there were two meager tribes of christians in all of Arabia and after five centuries of evangelizing should really let you in on how popular christianity was, especially so in the regions where Byzantium existed like Egypt/Syria who almost in totality gave up christianity for Islam. If the religion had any substance that didn't loan itself to some inexplicable mathematics and bizarre Greek Mythology perhaps it would have had some longevity in the regions of Christianity's inception..

Good look with your beliefs..

all the best
 
:salamext:


Some say that the Injeel revealed to Prophet Jesus was spoken, and not necessarily compiled in a Book form. There may have been some writings by his disciples which were probably burnt, along with the disciples themselves! (by some of the oppressive kings of the Byzantine!)
 
:salamext:


Some say that the Injeel revealed to Prophet Jesus was spoken, and not necessarily compiled in a Book form. There may have been some writings by his disciples which were probably burnt, along with the disciples themselves! (by some of the oppressive kings of the Byzantine!)

It is a fact of history that many copies of the Christians in the apostolic period had their writings confiscated and destroyed, as well as severe persecutions against them. It is amazing that over 5,000 manuscripts have survived to this day in whole and fragmentary form.

The problem I have with your suggestion is from the Qur'an itself. The Qur'an indicates that the Christians and Jews had the Gospel...which means at the time of Mohammed. It is quite reasonable then to conclude that what they had then was uncorrupted, written, and in their possession. That is...if we accept the Qur'an's testimony. No Muslim would reject the Qur'an.
 
τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ;1420387 said:


but when the understanding is 'base' what hope can there be for any sort of useful dialogue. For instance your base understanding that the Islamic belief of the trinity includes Mary? Do you want to do some minor research before writing?.
There is so much to account for in the Quran that isn't even common knowledge or present at all in your bibles. Ahel Al'kahf for instance, have you a record of them? Zhu El qyrnyen? Jesus' speaking as an infant?

Common knowledge that you speak of should also enable you the understanding that Judaism didn't exist in books but was an oral tradition and the printing press wasn't invented until the 1500's so the messenger's acquisition of books whether or not he was literate would have been next to impossible. Also there were two meager tribes of christians in all of Arabia and after five centuries of evangelizing should really let you in on how popular christianity was, especially so in the regions where Byzantium existed like Egypt/Syria who almost in totality gave up christianity for Islam. If the religion had any substance that didn't loan itself to some inexplicable mathematics and bizarre Greek Mythology perhaps it would have had some longevity in the regions of Christianity's inception..

Good look with your beliefs..

all the best

My research is based out the Qur'an. Look at Surah 5:116-117. It seems to my reading, whether Pickthal, Yusufali, or Shakir, that the writer of those verse believed that the doctrine of the Trinity included Mary. Further, the Qur'an isn't even refuting the historic doctrine of the Trinity....it is refuting tri-theism, not trinitarianism. But back to the Mary point, what sect that called itself Christian holds Mary as part of the Godhead? Even the idolatry of the papacy doesn't include Mary within the Godhead.

And I wasn't aware that popularity was the test for truth. I guess Isaiah should have lamented not that he was the last faithful one (he was not) but rather that he must be in error since the whole world was going in a different direction.

Broad is the way that leads to destruction. But narrow and difficult is the way that leads to life. -Jesus
 
My research is based out the Qur'an. Look at Surah 5:116-117. It seems to my reading, whether Pickthal, Yusufali, or Shakir, that the writer of those verse believed that the doctrine of the Trinity included Mary. Further, the Qur'an isn't even refuting the historic doctrine of the Trinity....it is refuting tri-theism, not trinitarianism. But back to the Mary point, what sect that called itself Christian holds Mary as part of the Godhead? Even the idolatry of the papacy doesn't include Mary within the Godhead.

And I wasn't aware that popularity was the test for truth. I guess Isaiah should have lamented not that he was the last faithful one (he was not) but rather that he must be in error since the whole world was going in a different direction.

Broad is the way that leads to destruction. But narrow and difficult is the way that leads to life. -Jesus

The Quran isn't left to the renditions of the unlearned. Don't quote me verses whose meaning is very apparently lost to you..
Further many verses in the Quran refute the trinity, not that one needs Quranic verses to refute what can be simply done by common sense and logic !

No popularity isn't a test for truth I have so attested in one of my previous posts, there was indeed a time when Abraham and Lut were all there is of believers. But their beliefs didn't include a self-immolating mangod who couldn't ward off a couple of provincial oafs after a night of prayer apparently to himself, or a god who couldn't choose effectual apostles to shoulder the message after his death so he'd have to abrogate his commandments through his nemesis. Indeed the broad way is the way of christianity where you've a carte blanche to sin as you please so long as your god ate your sins for you, for lent my friend is giving up chocolate, I can see how difficult that will prove between banging her boyfriend and getting drunk..

all the best
 
Is it just me or has this been thrashed to death now several times; The Book of the uncorrupted Ingeel seems to be something that cant have existed in Mohammeds time so it becomes confusing as to why anything corrupted should be shown respect.

This is another pointless circular debate that goes nowhere until the scholars of Islam will declare where is the book of Ingeel because if you have no original your claim of major reconstruction can have no proof with nothing to compare it to. If you point to one book and say look this has been changed from this does this mean that the first is correct and second is corrupted or does it mean the first was corrupted but the second was a return to original, or both are corrupted so neither was the Injeel. The whole arguement is pointless. Its time those of the Islamic faith start to find their original Holy books the Torah and the Injeel then show us whats been changed instead of continuing with this silly pointless circle of illogical debate.

And im bored with the quote about the Illiterate prophet that will only speak Gods word must be Mohammed for several reasons ; the most obvious being that Mohammed did not only speak what he said was the revealled Quran he had loads to say on his own and you have all this recorded in all your other books that are inportant to your faith. The only being that speaks Gods words is God so this saying is just as correctly ascribing the prophet to be The Holy Spirit when inspiring the faithfull. Also there is no proof he was Illerate. Most prophets have started from the position that they are not worthy to speak Gods words but it does not mean the were completely uneducated.

Why cant we start a more positive debate about which books we can agree on.
 
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