Exactly what kind of Bible did the Christians in Muhammad's (pbuh) time have?

[جوري]

the book should be super-imposed upon its own content and the other bibles to see if the passages agree.. Jesus' last words for instance.. or are you that delusional? You people really are a riot, I mean who are you trying to convince of this?

furthermore what is the point of agreed upon books? do you hold the laws of the OT even if you agree with them?

 

[3rddec]

I noticed the other great circular arguement creeping in above the Trinity and again can I point out the following ( remember the following is not a proof for or against the Trinity but a bit of honest thinking )

1) an athiest will find believing in a God is Illogical but this does not mean God doesnt exist and even as a believer I can understand how logically they can take this position
2) If God cant be proven logically because of his very nature then how could the Trinity be proven logically ( ps anyone who says God can be proven Logically will become Gods
Apostle to the Rationalist Athiests)
3) ponder this thought and find the flaw-- If i shine an infinately long beam of light through space then using mirrors split this beam into 3 / 4 / 5 whatever beams that then are alowed to travel an infinate length in their new directions do they not have the same length as the original ( infinate ) . Are each beam independant or are they one with the first. Are they each a new light or the original . Were the new beams created from nothing ot begotton from the first.

So If you are a true scholar and honest debater can you not at least accept that belief in one God as a single Godhead or a single God with three seperate individuals within the one Godhead are of equal Logical worth even if you dont accept one or other position. And keep the debate to Scriptural analysis. Otherwise whats the point in the discussion.

Love and Respect

 

[3rddec]

Having a race without an agreed starting and end point would be a farse ; and having a debate with no agreement about what is to be considered by both parties as suitable agreed on evidence is just as farsical as we can see by the constant restarting of identical threads with different titles always spinning in the same endless spirals going nowhere. It sounds like a punishment that the ancient greeks would make up for some character in hades to continue forever in a pointless task that seems to make sence and goes nowhere. There is so much more things that can be discussed like how should the world help the Japanese; or how should a religious person act in a society which doesnt stop them practicing their religion but clearly discriminates against them when it comes to the equitable division of wealth and opportunity for advancement (should they break the law of the land, are they entitled to kill).

Love and Respect

 

[جوري]

So If you are a true scholar and honest debater can you not at least accept that belief in one God as a single Godhead or a single God with three seperate individuals within the one Godhead are of equal Logical worth even if you dont accept one or other position. And keep the debate to Scriptural analysis. Otherwise whats the point in the discussion.

I don't know any 'true scholars' who would believe that a father/son/holyspirit all of them a completely different being would = to one god or that they'd classify it as at all under monotheism!
that is if we're to forgo all the other absurdities, but this is the article upon which your salvation rests .. if the most basic tenet is faulty I don't see how anything else no matter how florid and embellished would matter..

all the best

 

[جوري]

Having a race without an agreed starting and end point would be a farse ; and having a debate with no agreement about what is to be considered by both parties as suitable agreed on evidence is just as farsical as we can see by the constant restarting of identical threads with different titles always spinning in the same endless spirals going nowhere. It sounds like a punishment that the ancient greeks would make up for some character in hades to continue forever in a pointless task that seems to make sence and goes nowhere. There is so much more things that can be discussed like how should the world help the Japanese; or how should a religious person act in a society which doesnt stop them practicing their religion but clearly discriminates against them when it comes to the equitable division of wealth and opportunity for advancement (should they break the law of the land, are they entitled to kill).

Love and Respect

so long as Christians continue on the same absurd assertions they'll hear and read the same arguments. You're in essence asking the non-christian world to shut off their logic and common sense completely to accept your beliefs as valid, and for no good cause that I could think of, for surely if your god died eating your sins, the matter is a done deal.. no sense arguing about a religion whose sole requirement is your belief that god died for you to attain paradise!

all the besr

 

[3rddec]

Another interesting note to add that A lie told over and over in an Identical manner does not become the truth no matter how often it is faithfully repeated. So the proof of the Quran cannot stand on the fact that it is unaltered but rather than what it contains. So if you believe in your Quran as the word of God then maybe you should stop trying to use the fact that its unchanged as a proof for or against its truth but rather its contents and allow the Torah and the Bible the same curtosy.

Love and Respect

 

[3rddec]

If only my religion was as simple as you state lol; while I profess to knowing very little about Islam compared to you , if thats the limit of your understanding of Christianity then by comparision I know loads about Islam. I have to admit that you have finally convinced me of one fact. You know no scholars. I would positively encourage people to use there intellect but not to just be closed off to an idea using a logic that is no logic but fooling themself that its logic. I have tried to interject some new ideas of my own into the discussion. If you have found them anywhere else on any web site please post them. I'm sure some people who have actually read them and thought about them should at least find that there is no logical fault in them even if they hold different opinions to me. I have asked for critique of the logic and haven't had it yet.

Love and respect

 

[جوري]

Another interesting note to add that A lie told over and over in an Identical manner does not become the truth no matter how often it is faithfully repeated.

Love and Respect

I couldn't agree more.. let me know how well that pans out when you finally conclude that whole mangod fiasco is nothing but kindred greek mythology except in that case Zeus and his son Hercules from a mortal woman aren't one in the same.
The truth stands out on its own. I don't need to compare aspirin to snake oil from a street merchant with a tent to know which is the obvious and accurate choice..
by the way have you tried selling the mangod thing on a Jewish forum? to them there is no such thing as 'NT' and if you so admire the 'OT' then how about upholding its law, didn't it allegedly come courtesy of the same god? or does he change his mind? first he's ruthless and then he is self-immolating?

all the best

 

[3rddec]

If we eliminated everything that had a corresponding identity or symbol or practice in a pagan belief from our faith or yours then we would not believe in an afterlife. But yet we both agree on this. Should we now therefore stop believing in this because some pagan group had a similar story or believe it because we know it to be true. What others believed or didnt believe does not show truth or otherwise just that they thought something similar. Im fairly sure the eskimos believe 1 + 1 = 2 and so do I does this mean I'm wrong because they stumbled on a similar truth to me?

Love and Respect

 

[جوري]

If we eliminated everything that had a corresponding identity or symbol or practice in a pagan belief from our faith or yours then we would not believe in an afterlife. But yet we both agree on this. Should we now therefore stop believing in this because some pagan group had a similar story or believe it because we know it to be true. What others believed or didnt believe does not show truth or otherwise just that they thought something similar. Im fairly sure the eskimos believe 1 + 1 = 2 and so do I does this mean I'm wrong because they stumbled on a similar truth to me?

Love and Respect

What with the frequent irrelevant drivel? This is your argument Eskimos and arithmetic?

 

[Fivesolas]

If we eliminated everything that had a corresponding identity or symbol or practice in a pagan belief from our faith or yours then we would not believe in an afterlife. But yet we both agree on this. Should we now therefore stop believing in this because some pagan group had a similar story or believe it because we know it to be true. What others believed or didnt believe does not show truth or otherwise just that they thought something similar. Im fairly sure the eskimos believe 1 + 1 = 2 and so do I does this mean I'm wrong because they stumbled on a similar truth to me?

Love and Respect

Bravo on reasoning from sound logic.

 

[Ramadhan]

If we eliminated everything that had a corresponding identity or symbol or practice in a pagan belief from our faith or yours then we would not believe in an afterlife.

If that's your opinion, why don't you try it.
Maybe starting with a God who impregnated earthly woman to bear god son, then move on to easter and christmas?
Which pagan practice that have the concept of after life as in abrahamic religions?

But yet we both agree on this. Should we now therefore stop believing in this because some pagan group had a similar story or believe it because we know it to be true.

Interestingly, the OT and the jews never knew about god sacrificing himself and about a 3-in-1 god.
Heck, even Jesus (pbuh) didnt even know about a 3-in1 god and his disciples were also worshipping only the one god, and never the 3-in-1 go

 

[3rddec]

You are right ; the Jews didn,t know about a God that would sacrifice his Son and thats why it clearly says in the bible how Christ had to explain all this to his apostle.

Of course the cresent moon appears important to many ancient religions in the middle east; biblical scholars would point out that when the jews strayed from their beliefs in the True God it was to moon worship. Oops isn't that a symbol for Islam... (off course not its just drivel everything i say is ( a word i've become accustomed lol )

Love and Respect

 

[جوري]

You are right ; the Jews didn,t know about a God that would sacrifice his Son and thats why it clearly says in the bible how Christ had to explain all this to his apostle.

Of course the cresent moon appears important to many ancient religions in the middle east; biblical scholars would point out that when the jews strayed from their beliefs in the True God it was to moon worship. Oops isn't that a symbol for Islam... (off course not its just drivel everything i say is ( a word i've become accustomed lol )

Love and Respect

actually No, it isn't a symbol of Islam nor was it ever a pagan religion to the ancient arabs..it is unfortunate that you're so under-educated though..
you could take the crescents off any mosque you see and shove it up yours believe me no one will be offended!

all the best

 

[CosmicPathos]

You are right ; the Jews didn,t know about a God that would sacrifice his Son and thats why it clearly says in the bible how Christ had to explain all this to his apostle.

Of course the cresent moon appears important to many ancient religions in the middle east; biblical scholars would point out that when the jews strayed from their beliefs in the True God it was to moon worship. Oops isn't that a symbol for Islam... (off course not its just drivel everything i say is ( a word i've become accustomed lol )

Love and Respect

crescent a symbol of Islam? :S what non-sense is that!

 

[Tyrion]

The crescent moon is a symbol of Islam? Not according to the Muslims... Dude, how can you expect us to take you seriously when you keep showing us your ignorance regarding our religion? A person who doesn't know should either ask honest questions to learn, or keep quiet...

 

[Woodrow]

crescent a symbol of Islam? :S what non-sense is that!

Don't be too harsh, it is a very commom misconception about us and very many Christians believe it. The Crescent moon is not and never has been a symbol of Islam. It seems to have been an error made by the French in the 17th Century and was somewhat antiIslamic. It seems to go back to the kipril a forerunner of the Croissant. They were a favorite of the Day and in time they became associated with the Ottoman empire. and eventually with Muslims in general, to eat a kipfril became symbolic of killing a Muslim and the Cresent came to represent Islam to non Muslims.

I did the above from memory, from a long time ago. I can not find a source to verify it, but this comes very close to doing so:
http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=58;t=000950;p=0

I guess you can say the Crescent is symbolic of Islam to non-Muslims although it does not symbolize Islam to us.

 

[Ramadhan]

You are right ; the Jews didn,t know about a God that would sacrifice his Son and thats why it clearly says in the bible how Christ had to explain all this to his apostle.

So you are claiming that Jesus is God. Let's see what Jesus CLEARLY said about this particular issue:

"I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." (John 20:17 RSV 1952)
"Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." (Mark 10:18)
"I can do nothing of my own authority" (John 5:30)
"I do as the Father has commanded me." (John 14:31 RSV)
"The words that I say to you I do not speak of my own authority." (John 14:10 RSV)
"I do nothing of my own authority but speak thus as the Father has taught me." (John 8:28 RSV)
"The Father is greater than I." (John 14:28 RSV)
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." (Matthew 24:36)
"Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee; remove this cup from me; yet not what I will, but what thou wilt." (Mark 14:32)
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46)

So it is either that Jesus is not God, as he has clearly stated, or, if current christians are correct, then that means Jesus (or God) lied.

Of course the cresent moon appears important to many ancient religions in the middle east; biblical scholars would point out that when the jews strayed from their beliefs in the True God it was to moon worship. Oops isn't that a symbol for Islam...

Didn't you realize that you just made one the dumbest and most ignorant statements anyone could ever say about Islam?
moon, crescent or otherwise, is not a symbol of Islam, and nor can it be found in the Qur'an or ahadeeth that it has any meaning whatsoever. And no muslim, anywhere anytime, would proclaim that moon crescent is a symbol of Islam or that it has any special meaning.

Sis. Lily was accurate. You can take all crescents from any building in the world and shove them up inside the opening of your body where the sun does not shine, and no muslim would bat an eye. In fact, I would personally donate the biggest (and most beautiful too if you insist) crescent I could find, give it to you and politely ask you to take it and shove it all up.

off course not its just drivel everything i say is ( a word i've become accustomed lol )

It's a pity you didn't realize that sooner.

 

[3rddec]

Thank you Woodrow for your considered reply I should research it further and may return to the subject; thank you Naidamar for explaining aslo and your indignation does not offend me as I can understand it based on some things I have read about Christianity and some of my indignation ( of course as a Guest in your forum i do have to restrain myself as I read your Forum ), to Tyrion I think you idea is excellent that way we could all see a Trinity discussion coming from a mile of and it would eliminate those posters I see that keep asking the same old ; same old like they don't already know the answer or at least the responses they will accept.

Love and Respect

 

[3rddec]

It was said that the reason why the Muslims adopted the crescent was that when they conquered some western countries, the churches there had crosses on top of them, the Muslims replaced the crosses with these crescents, and the practice spread in this way.
( from http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles/misc/moonstar.asp )


For hundreds of years, the Ottoman Empire ruled over the Muslim world. After centuries of battle with Christian Europe, it is understandable how the symbols of this empire became linked in people's minds with the faith of Islam as a whole. Based on this history, many Muslims reject using the crescent moon as a symbol of Islam. The faith of Islam has historically had no symbol, and many refuse to accept what is essentially an ancient pagan icon. It is certainly not in uniform use among Muslims. ( from http://islam.about.com/od/history/a/crescent_moon.htm )

So as Woodrow said earlier it was not unreasonable of me to think as I did.

So maybe we should take down all the Cresent Moons from all the Mosques that carry that Pagan symbol and as Naidamar so eloquently puts it shove them up the rear oriface of any Ottoman we can find and see if and Muslim bats an eyelid lol.

Love and Respect ( and just a little sense of Humour )