Faith vs works

[Umar001]

Just sitting here, trying to work out, Original Sin, and Faith and Works, seem like quite a different topic, which might interwine at some points but very different to the reason for the thread.

Anyhow, peace.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Just sitting here, trying to work out, Original Sin, and Faith and Works, seem like quite a different topic, which might interwine at some points but very different to the reason for the thread.

Agreed.

The place they interwine is in thinking of Christ's sacrificial death as Christ's "work" on the cross by which humankind is saved. Christians believe in this (Christ's) work and not their own for salvation -- that is they trust that because of Christ's sacrificial death, atonement for sin has been paid and there is no more need for it to be paid, nor can it be paid any other way. Thus it is by (their) faith, not (their) works, that Christians come into a saving relationship with God.


In response to Pygoscelis, I have to admit that sometimes I ask that very same question, "God, why was this the way you planned it?" And I don't always have the answers. But I know that from the beginning it appears that God sought atonment for sins through blood sacrifice. (So it isn't about trying to convince God to spare humanity, it is about paying the price on their behalf, when they were/are incapable of doing so for themselves.

Now, I understand that many people find the concept of blood sacrifice to be offensive, and I suppose it is to the modern mind. But we see this in all three of the monotheistic religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. In Judaism, the temple rituals all centered around sacrifices. Muslims will recall that even before Jews built the temple God called people to make sacrifice to him. It was in being obedient to carry this out that Abraham (pbuh) was prepared to sacrifice his own son. The 2 central celebration of Judaism are the Passover and Yom Kippor, in which sacrifice plays a central role in both. This is all part of the tradition into which Jesus (pbuh) was born and becomes the fulfillment of. Christians understand Christ as the passover lamb, as the lamb of Yom Kippor who takes away the sin of the world.

Why? I don't know. Surely God could have determined that all one had to do was to say "I'm sorry." and everything would be alright. Perhaps God could simply tell us to hug and make-up? But that isn't the way it was worked out. Later Christians reflecting back on their faith in light of the Jewish practices from which they came wrote: "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. (Hebrews 9:22)"

So, Christ's sacrifice pays the price for this original sin, and all subsequent sin. Christians accept this to be true by faith, they no longer believe in the necessity for future sacrifices for Christ's sacrifice is sufficient once for all and does not need to be repeated. Thus our works now are in response as an offering of praise and thanksgiving and not a means to any other end.

 

[Pygoscelis]

It is refreshing to see a Christian not hide from the dark underbelly of the religion (as I see it from a secular 21st century perspective), blood sacrifice and all.

 

[Keltoi]

It is refreshing to see a Christian not hide from the dark underbelly of the religion (as I see it from a secular 21st century perspective), blood sacrifice and all.

What exactly would be the "dark underbelly"?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Doesn't that strike you as unfair? Having to pay for something you had neither choice nor responsibility over?

Is it fair that some children have rich and prosperous parents and others poor ones?

Is it fair that some children are born to parents with mutated genes for diseases like sickle cell anemia or diabetes that they pass on to their own children?

Is it fair or unfair that some people are born into an Islamic household, raised by pious Muslim parents and learn about Muhammed (pbuh) and Allah (swt) even before they learn to talk? While others are born into households completely devoid of such knowledge, or worse prejuidiced against it, and are then held accountable for not accepting Allah and the teachings of the Prophet?

There are many consequences that children suffer because of events that they have no choice nor responsibility over, but are simply the results of the decisions of the parents passed down to them.

Not quite, in the Islamic teachings we don't believe man was created to the image of God. We believe God is unlike anything we can Imagen. And to appoint characteristics to him is to do him injustice. For example: If you say God has ears like man, then you are suggesting he can only notice a select range of frequencies and not all vibrations. If you Say God has eyes like mankind you imply that God can only see visible light. Mankind is limited in almost everything by nature, whereas God is omnipotent. The only thing we do know about God are his 99 names which each hint to some of his characteristics.

I did NOT say that God is created in our image. I said that we are created in God's. And I specifically said that this was NOT in reference to our physical being.

Interesting theory; I disagree with it; but even if it were correct, that still doesn't answer my question does it? If this were the case it still would be unjust of God to first create us with original sin, without a choice over it, and then hold us accountable for it.

I did NOT say that God created us with original sin. God created Adam and Even without any sin. They disobeyed. The consequences of their disobedience are something that we still experience today. We are born inheritors of that sin, because Adam and Eve were so marred by that sin, that one might think of it as changing their genetic make-up so that we would all inherit the marred image of God. (BTW, I know that genetics doesn't work this way.) Of course we are not talking about a physical or biological change; we are talking about a spiritual change. Adam and Eve were dead spiritually. They had no Spirit from God alive in them to pass on to their children, nor would their children have any to pass on to their children or their children's children.

In that context one would say that dying for the (origenal) sin of mankind is then only God's way to set earlier mistakes right.

Exactly.

I know that probably sounds like blasphemy; there is really no offense intended. But to me the story just doesn't add up. I see God as the most just, the omniscient who is not bound over time and hence has no before and after. Such an entity doesn't "change his mind" or "makes mistakes".

Except that it wasn't God's mistake. It was Adam's.

Is it a mistake that Allah created people who, in Islam's view, are capable of choosing to not give honor and praise to God? (Rhetorical question) No. Same thing. In the Christian understanding, God created Adam with a capacity to choose to not obey. He didn't. Everyone downstream from him is subject to the consequences of that decision.

Again I get the feeling of unjust treatment. Are you saying one small sin weighs up unto thousands of goods deeds?

We don't weigh sins and righteous deeds as if on a scale where they counter balance each other. We don't keep a ledger sheet to see if you are more good or more bad. We understand that the call to be righteous is a call to perfection. You are either perfect or imperfect. You either have no sin in your life, or you have sin in your life.

For instance, I assume you have probably at one time or another bought some brand new clothes. Let us say a white shirt. Now that shirt gets worn and gets some dirt on it. You wash it to remove the dirt and it appears for all intents and purposes to be clean. But if you were to compare that shirt to a brand new shirt, you would notice that it is not quite as bright, not quite as white as a brand new shirt. You can wash it 1000 times, and it will never be white as new again. Christians believe that only the blood of Jesus can get the stain of sin completely out.

Ibn Abbas, radiyallahu 'anhu, reported that the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, related from his Lord (glorified and exalted be He): "Verily Allah has recorded the good deeds and the evil deeds." Then he clarified that: "Whosoever intends to do a good deed but does not do it, Allah records it with Himself as a complete good deed; but if he intends it and does it, Allah records it with Himself as ten good deeds, up to seven hundred times, or more than that. But if he intends to do an evil deed and does not do it, Allah records it with Himself as a complete good deed; but if he intends it and does it, Allah records it down as one single evil deed."
(Boekhaarie and Moeslim)

I have no disagreement with that.

However, please also be aware, for the Christian good deeds are meaningless toward the goal of earning God's favor. As important as right actions are (and they are very important) human beings cannot earn God's favor by what we do or don't do. Faith without works is dead, but works by themselves are powerless and without merit. Good deeds are not done to earn God's favor, but as an expression of thankfulness to God for his mercy.

 

[dougmusr]

"Whosoever intends to do a good deed but does not do it, Allah records it with Himself as a complete good deed;

It would be interesting to understand what the meaning of the word "intends" might be in the Quranic passage. In the parable below, it was the action that proved the intent. In any case, the parable below indicates that entrance to heaven is given based on faith.

Mt 21:28 "But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go, work today in my vineyard.'
29 "He answered and said, 'I will not,' but afterward he regretted it and went.
30 "Then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said, 'I go, sir,' but he did not go.
31 "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said to Him, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you.
32 "For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward relent and believe him.

 

[dougmusr]

The Mt 21:28 passage also points out why I believe that it is faith and not works that determines salvation. Take the first son. The parable makes it clear that the first son had no intent of doing the father's will, but later changed his mind, ie: repented, and did it. This is not unlike mankind when it comes to doing God's will. If salvation were based on works, when the trumpet sounds and Christ returns, some of us will be judged on a bad day, and some on a good day. It is my opinion that God has made salvation an objective Yes/No test, rather than a subjective works evaluation. In the judgement, God will ask if we accepted his gift of forgiveness through Christ. We will either answer Yes or No. If we answer No, we have chosen the subjective test. The problem is that the standard is God's perfection. There will be no grading on the curve.

 

[snakelegs]

since both islam and christianity believe that you must be a muslim (unless you've never been exposed to islam) or christian in order to go to heaven, it seems obvious to me that faith is more important than works in both religions. islam strikes me as somewhat more "action oriented" than christianity tho....

 

[dougmusr]

I also tend to agree with the concept that all are responsible before God for their own sin. To me the concept of original sin means we are all born with a tendency to sin which we inherited from Adam. I would go further and say that other than Christ, all mankind has taken the sinful path.

Ez:1 The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 "What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying: 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge'? 3 "As I live," says the Lord GOD, "you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die... 19 "Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.
20 "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

 

[snakelegs]

I also tend to agree with the concept that all are responsible before God for their own sin. To me the concept of original sin means we are all born with a tendency to sin which we inherited from Adam. I would go further and say that other than Christ, all mankind has taken the sinful path.

doesn't this put you in the position of a judge?
wouldn't this be better left to god?

 

[dougmusr]

doesn't this put you in the position of a judge?
wouldn't this be better left to god?

By saying all manking has chosen sin, I include myself as well, and I don;t think of this as judgement. The way I see it, judgement means the trial is over and it is time to set the punishment. I would say that refusing to share the Gospel (good news) with a person is more an act of judgement because I am saying that the person is not worthy of being saved and receiving God's forgiveness.

 

[Grace Seeker]

doesn't this put you in the position of a judge?
wouldn't this be better left to god?

If I read dougmusr's remarks in context of his other writings, he is not saying that he personally judges each person a sinner, but rather... as he understands what God has revealed about human beings, that all are sinners.

Though Doug did not quote any specific verses there are a number he could have referred to which articulate that concept.

 

[snakelegs]

this seems like a judgement to me:
"I would go further and say that other than Christ, all mankind has taken the sinful path."
unless you are saying that only christ was sinless - that would make sense to me in view of your religion.
so are you saying that other than believe in christ, the rest if us have taken the sinful path or are you saying that christ was the only sinless being?
i have managed to confuse myself now!

 

[Pygoscelis]

Well aside from humanity having to pay for the sins of forefathers (which is one of my top objections to christianity being moral, another being Jesus being able to 'pay' for the sins of somebody else) I always found the biggest unfairness being to the snake in the garden of eden.

Was it or was it not Satan? If it wasn't, then you are saying snakes could talk back then, which is silly. If it was Satan in the form of a snake then why are snakes punished to crawl on their bellies as it says in Genesis?

 

[- Qatada -]

Hi snakelegs.


The reason we believe and have faith is simple. We believe that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and due to this belief - our actions support our testification (i.e. if we doing it sincerely to please Allaah or not, and only Allaah can judge that.)

Simply stating that one believes has to be proven through action, and by obeying Allaah and His messengers - we're showing that we do believe and submit to the Creator.



I'll give an example of how both aspects are important; if a person says he believes in the testification to be a muslim [there is none worthy of worship except Allaah] - but doesn't obey Allaah in any way, is the person really living upto the testification they just said?


It can also go to the opposite extreme, where a person does lots of 'good deeds' but it turns out that the person only said [there is none worthy of worship except Allaah] with their mouth (instead of heart) in order to join the muslims - maybe to spy on them [i.e. a warfare tactic from the opposition.] This person acts all good infront of the people, he even does alot of 'good deeds' - but this person only did it, not for Allaah's sake, but for the peoples sake, maybe for cash, respect etc.

This person didn't have the faith, but it seemed as if he had alot of 'good deeds' - the weakness in that was that he never believed, he never had faith.

There were some people like this at the time of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) who would support the enemy while pretending to be muslims, these people are known as hypocrites [munafiqeen.]




So you see how faith and good deeds come hand in hand, a person who does good and doesn't have faith sincerely for Allaah alone is doing it for another gain, most likely some worldly gain, so Allaah will bless them in this world with something for their good, but they will have no good left for them in the hereafter.

Instead - these people on the day of judgement will be told to get their reward off the thing they did their deed for, so if someone did something for prophet Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them) - they will have to go to him for reward, if they did it for a stone idol, they will have to ask for reward from that idol, if they did it for Allaah Almighty's sake alone, their reward is with Allaah. But remember that every soul is dependant on Allaah alone, and no-one can enter paradise if they associate partners with Allaah Almighty.



If you got any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.



Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.​

 

[Umar001]

Hi Snakelegs,

islam strikes me as somewhat more "action oriented" than christianity tho....

With regards to the above, I was just wondering, if you were to compare Islaam and the things prescribed in the Old Testaments, such as the laws and so forth, would you then find that the Law of God in the Old Testament is much more action orientated than that of the new?

 

[Umar001]

Hi Dougmusr

I also tend to agree with the concept that all are responsible before God for their own sin. To me the concept of original sin means we are all born with a tendency to sin which we inherited from Adam. I would go further and say that other than Christ, all mankind has taken the sinful path.

Ezikiel 18 beautiful chapter (I hope am correct it is 18 right ;D)

I would just like to ask, so you do not believe or hold the view as some others might that humans are born with sin on them, but rather that we are only just born with the inclination towards sin?

 

[Umar001]

Is it fair that some children have rich and prosperous parents and others poor ones?

Is it fair that some children are born to parents with mutated genes for diseases like sickle cell anemia or diabetes that they pass on to their own children?

Is it fair or unfair that some people are born into an Islamic household, raised by pious Muslim parents and learn about Muhammed (pbuh) and Allah (swt) even before they learn to talk? While others are born into households completely devoid of such knowledge, or worse prejuidiced against it, and are then held accountable for not accepting Allah and the teachings of the Prophet?

There are many consequences that children suffer because of events that they have no choice nor responsibility over, but are simply the results of the decisions of the parents passed down to them.

I will just focous on this for now since I see that your having an interesting conversation with someone else, coming to the point, I do not see how you can compare paying back to humans and paying back to God.

You see, the examples you have brought forward are not sufficient you said: "Is it fair that some children are born to parents with mutated genes for diseases like sickle cell anemia or diabetes that they pass on to their own children?" This is a test a person born into such family does not have a sin on them nor does that person have to pay back for something, rather it is a test from God, and they will be rewarded accordingly.

On the other hand, the concept that a son has to pay for the sin of the father is not a test, its not a matter of the son making a choice and sinning because of that choice, it is a thing already decreed, it is SIN on the son, which is different to a mere test.

Also "and are then held accountable for not accepting Allah and the teachings of the Prophet?" Again noone is going to be held accountable for something they did not know, Allah does not send people to hell without sending them a message.

What you have brought forward are tests, and according to the tests and the actions taken by the person, the person either is rewarded or commits a sin. This is totally different from the concept of having to pay for sins of others, where the person has to take on the sins of someone's elses failed test.

I hope that makes sense

Eesa

 

[Grace Seeker]

What you have brought forward are tests, and according to the tests and the actions taken by the person, the person either is rewarded or commits a sin. This is totally different from the concept of having to pay for sins of others, where the person has to take on the sins of someone's elses failed test.

Well, I disagree that things like sickle cell anemia are meant as tests, but that is not relevant to the question.

I agree that a test is totally different from the concept of having to pay for the sins of others. And what we have in Christianity's concept of original sin is in fact people having to live with the consequences of another's sin, in addition to his/her own. You do not think it is fair. And do not think a just God would do this. I, on the other hand, do not think that even passing a test merits anyone a reward. And I am greatful that God does not require that we pass any test in order to gain his acceptance. We are of different minds as to what God's expectations are. That makes sense as we are also of different religions.

 

[Grace Seeker]

this seems like a judgement to me:
"I would go further and say that other than Christ, all mankind has taken the sinful path."
unless you are saying that only christ was sinless - that would make sense to me in view of your religion.
so are you saying that other than believe in christ, the rest if us have taken the sinful path or are you saying that christ was the only sinless being?
i have managed to confuse myself now!

I think these two thoughts are synonymous:

other than Christ, all mankind has taken the sinful path.

and

christ was the only sinless being