Faith vs works

[Abdul Fattah]

Is it fair that some children have rich and prosperous parents and others poor ones?

Is it fair that some children are born to parents with mutated genes for diseases like sickle cell anemia or diabetes that they pass on to their own children?

Yeah defenitly fair if you believe that the ones who were less lucky here will get compensated in the next life. But in the question I posed that was not the case, in fact it was the opposite. The examples you say is unfairness in this world, which is trivial, after all life is a test. The unfairness I spoke of was unfairness towards the afterlife.

Is it fair or unfair that some people are born into an Islamic household, raised by pious Muslim parents and learn about Muhammed (pbuh) and Allah (swt) even before they learn to talk? While others are born into households completely devoid of such knowledge, or worse prejuidiced against it, and are then held accountable for not accepting Allah and the teachings of the Prophet?

Yeah, because each of them will be judged by different values. The ones who have harder questions on their test (=life on earth) will have more points for a good answer. The final judgment will not be a simple summation of deeds. There are many factors that play an important role, for example every act will be judged by it's intention. Someone doing good in a difficult environment will reap greater reward then someone doing good in an easier environment. In other words all these unequal factors will be taken into consideration.

I did NOT say that God is created in our image. I said that we are created in God's. And I specifically said that this was NOT in reference to our physical being.

Yes, well even that we cannot agree to, if Allah subhana wa ta'ala is like nothing we can Imagen, then that means he is not like us, and then that means we are not like him either. Those just follow up logically from one another.

I did NOT say that God created us with original sin. God created Adam and Even without any sin. They disobeyed. The consequences of their disobedience are something that we still experience today. We are born inheritors of that sin, because Adam and Eve were so marred by that sin, that one might think of it as changing their genetic make-up so that we would all inherit the marred image of God. (BTW, I know that genetics doesn't work this way.) Of course we are not talking about a physical or biological change; we are talking about a spiritual change. Adam and Eve were dead spiritually.

that doesn't change a lot to the story right? Either way you put it, it still comes down to people of earth being created with sins that they had no choice over and no responsibility over.

Except that it wasn't God's mistake. It was Adam's.

Well Adam (peace be upon him) might have made a mistake, but that still doesn't make him responsible for creating the rest of mankind with original sin, that was still gods decision right?

Is it a mistake that Allah created people who, in Islam's view, are capable of choosing to not give honor and praise to God? (Rhetorical question) No. Same thing. In the Christian understanding, God created Adam with a capacity to choose to not obey. He didn't. Everyone downstream from him is subject to the consequences of that decision.

Well there's a huge difference giving people choice is a neutral act, and hard to portrait as mistake. But creating people as sinful by default and then making up for it does look like a mistake.

We don't weigh sins and righteous deeds as if on a scale where they counter balance each other. We don't keep a ledger sheet to see if you are more good or more bad. We understand that the call to be righteous is a call to perfection. You are either perfect or imperfect. You either have no sin in your life, or you have sin in your life.

So next to being unfair, wouldn't you also say this comes across a lil bit severe?

For instance, I assume you have probably at one time or another bought some brand new clothes. Let us say a white shirt. Now that shirt gets worn and gets some dirt on it. You wash it to remove the dirt and it appears for all intents and purposes to be clean. But if you were to compare that shirt to a brand new shirt, you would notice that it is not quite as bright, not quite as white as a brand new shirt. You can wash it 1000 times, and it will never be white as new again. Christians believe that only the blood of Jesus can get the stain of sin completely out.

Yeah but that doesn't mean you throw away the shirt because it isn't brand new anymore, it's still a good shirt that serves it purpose. It is just no longer perfect, but thatdoesn't mean it's a bad shirt right?

 

[Abdul Fattah]

@dougmusr

It would be interesting to understand what the meaning of the word "intends" might be in the Quranic passage. In the parable below, it was the action that proved the intent. In any case, the parable below indicates that entrance to heaven is given based on faith.

Mt 21:28 "But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go, work today in my vineyard.'
29 "He answered and said, 'I will not,' but afterward he regretted it and went.
30 "Then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said, 'I go, sir,' but he did not go.
31 "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said to Him, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you.
32 "For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward relent and believe him.

First of, small technicality: this was a hadeeth (authentic quote from the prophet peace be upon him which has been passed trough a known and checked line of quoters) not a part from the qur'an. No harm done, just my responsibility to point that out

Anyway, to answer your question the intention must be a sincere one. But that doesn't mean that one gets to do the deed. People can intend and plan one thing but unforeseen circumstances might drive them somewhere else. And indeed a deed defenitly proves the intention, but that doesn't mean an intention is disproved by the lack of the action. An extreme example: I could intend to cross the street but never get there because I got hit by a car.

@snakelegs,

since both islam and christianity believe that you must be a muslim (unless you've never been exposed to islam) or christian in order to go to heaven, it seems obvious to me that faith is more important than works in both religions. islam strikes me as somewhat more "action oriented" than christianity tho....

Well the matter is a lil bit more complex. Being a Muslim by definition means submitting to the guidance of Allah subhana wa ta'la that was given us trough prophet muhammed peace be upon him. So this "must" as you put it speaks more in favor of deeds rather then thoughts. Even satan believes in the existence of God, but just believing that doesn't make him a Muslim.

 

[snakelegs]

@snakelegs,

Well the matter is a lil bit more complex. Being a Muslim by definition means submitting to the guidance of Allah subhana wa ta'la that was given us trough prophet muhammed peace be upon him. So this "must" as you put it speaks more in favor of deeds rather then thoughts. Even satan believes in the existence of God, but just believing that doesn't make him a Muslim.

hi steve,
yes i realize that i was over simplifying. i do realize that actions are also extremely important in islam. yet, i can do all the good things humanly possible and i will still go to hell, as a non-muslim.
thanks for your clarification.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

hi steve,
yes i realize that i was over simplifying. i do realize that actions are also extremely important in islam. yet, i can do all the good things humanly possible and i will still go to hell, as a non-muslim.
thanks for your clarification.

I'm not sure about that. Allah subhana wa ta'ala can have mercy on whoever he choses. wheter or not he will use that mercy for non Muslims I do not know. I think some scholars will say it's not likely. But in the end all we can say is: Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows and we do not.

 

[snakelegs]

Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows and we do not.

i agree!

 

[Umar001]

Well, I disagree that things like sickle cell anemia are meant as tests, but that is not relevant to the question.

I agree that a test is totally different from the concept of having to pay for the sins of others. And what we have in Christianity's concept of original sin is in fact people having to live with the consequences of another's sin, in addition to his/her own.

So you do not hold the view at all that you or I or a baby has sin upon him due to the actions of the people around him, but only that the baby is placed in certain situations because of the people's sin around him, but this placement is not actually any sin on the person or baby?

I, on the other hand, do not think that even passing a test merits anyone a reward. And I am greatful that God does not require that we pass any test in order to gain his acceptance. We are of different minds as to what God's expectations are. That makes sense as we are also of different religions.

Actually, the accepting the sacrafise of Christ maybe seen as a 'test' and if one does accept this sacrafise the person attains, by the Mercy of God salvation. So in reality don't you think that a person has options to face, whether to do A or B, just like a test, and then he chooses, if he chooses one, then he is rewarded and will go paradise, by God's grace, and if he chooses B he's name will not be in the book of life and be cast into the lake of burning sulphur. Am I going wrong somewhere?

Thank you for your patience, Eesa.

 

[dougmusr]

this seems like a judgement to me:
"I would go further and say that other than Christ, all mankind has taken the sinful path."
unless you are saying that only christ was sinless - that would make sense to me in view of your religion.
so are you saying that other than believe in christ, the rest if us have taken the sinful path or are you saying that christ was the only sinless being?
i have managed to confuse myself now!

I am saying that Christ was the only sinless being. All of the rest of us, me included, have taken the sinful path.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Oh, the problems of religious language and culture preconceptions.....

So you do not hold the view at all that you or I or a baby has sin upon him due to the actions of the people around him, but only that the baby is placed in certain situations because of the people's sin around him, but this placement is not actually any sin on the person or baby?

I am sorry, I am completely lost as to what you are asking here. I am not sure that you understood me. I know I don't understand you. You want to try again.

For me the problem is in your choice of words: "so-and-so has sin upon him", "sin around him", and "sin on the person". These are not the words I use to talk about sin, so I don't know whether to agree, disagree, or what. I say that a person "has sinned" (actively) or "has sin in his/her life" (passive), but never that it is "placed upon" (passive) as the recipient of another's action. Even with regard to original sin, I don't mean that I receive Adam's sin. I am not guilty of what Adam did. Rather, I mean that Adam's sin, spoiled things for everyone. That Adam broke the perfect world God made. (Going back to my analogy...) And a thousand washings don't make it clean, nor do a 1000 generations eliminate the consequence of it. No, we don't throw the shirt away, we still wear it, it is the only shirt we have. But we can't say that the shirt is in the condition God wanted us to receive it in. God wants us to wear this brand new and perfectly clean shirt when we are called to heaven. And while it might look clean to us, when God looks at us, he can tell the difference.

The good news, from a Christian perspective, is that for reasons entirely known to God alone, God has decided to accept us as if we were wearing a clean shirt all those who seek admission based not on their own righteousness (or clean shirt), but on that of Jesus. It is as if we arrive at the door of heaven, and Jesus takes his own clean shirt off of his own back and gives it to us to wear. As we live in this life, we have faith that this is the case. That is we trust (i.e., have faith in) Jesus to take care of everything in the end. If we are wrong, and you are right, then I guess we won't get in. Because no amount of doing the right things for the wrong reasons is going to help us in any case.

Actually, the accepting the sacrafise of Christ maybe seen as a 'test' and if one does accept this sacrafise the person attains, by the Mercy of God salvation. So in reality don't you think that a person has options to face, whether to do A or B, just like a test, and then he chooses, if he chooses one, then he is rewarded and will go paradise, by God's grace, and if he chooses B he's name will not be in the book of life and be cast into the lake of burning sulphur. Am I going wrong somewhere?

I believe I understand this point better. I generally mean something different when I think of a test. But, if I understand it the way you do, then perhaps I might concur with your idea that accepting the sacrifice of Christ may be seen as a 'test'.

Thank you for your patience, Eesa.

Thank-you for having patience with me. I know my answers can be very involved. I hope I don't go into too much detail.

 

[snakelegs]

I am saying that Christ was the only sinless being. All of the rest of us, me included, have taken the sinful path.

thanks for clearing that up.

 

[shanu]

Ok gLo i respect ur reasearch in fact i researched in christianity and a few other religions for some time.
It is nt quite true that islam is more based on good deeds and actions. yes thats true
Now let us define the word ISLAM itself

Islam means Submitting Surrendering Obeying in Sincerity and Peace to Allah!
So to submit one must haf very deep faith and with that faith only is he able to Surrender completely to ALLAH. The very word surrender has a deep meaning, to surrender oneself to another one must have complete faith that the person will take care of him.. With that come absolutue obedience N with this obedience the person avoids temptations and jihad(struggle) to do more good deed in sincerity and peace. Peace here refers to that his deeds will nt affect or harm anyone in any way. I hope i haf helped u. God bless u!

 

[Grace Seeker]

Thank you for you words Shanu. If I hear you correctly, "submission" goes beyond merely acquiesence or formal obedience, to actually desiring to please God and seek his will for your life as an expression of your innermost being.

 

[snakelegs]

Ok gLo i respect ur reasearch in fact i researched in christianity and a few other religions for some time.
It is nt quite true that islam is more based on good deeds and actions. yes thats true
Now let us define the word ISLAM itself

Islam means Submitting Surrendering Obeying in Sincerity and Peace to Allah!
So to submit one must haf very deep faith and with that faith only is he able to Surrender completely to ALLAH. The very word surrender has a deep meaning, to surrender oneself to another one must have complete faith that the person will take care of him.. With that come absolutue obedience N with this obedience the person avoids temptations and jihad(struggle) to do more good deed in sincerity and peace. Peace here refers to that his deeds will nt affect or harm anyone in any way. I hope i haf helped u. God bless u!

i agree - submitting/surrendering is a very powerful and deep concept.

 

[- Qatada -]

Thank you for you words Shanu. If I hear you correctly, "submission" goes beyond merely acquiesence or formal obedience, to actually desiring to please God and seek his will for your life as an expression of your innermost being.

Yep, u hit the nail in the head. The greatest reward in paradise will be the chance of seeing Allaah Almighty there, and He will never be displeased because the only reason these people entered paradise was through His mercy.


Check this vid out I don't want to post it up because it might slow snakelegs connection up;


A Meeting with Allaah.. (in Paradise)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ukBX2TvfyQE




Peace & thanks.

 

[glo]

How wonderful to see Christians, Muslims and agnostics (at least one of them) agree on the beauty of submitting to God!

God's peace and blessings to you all

 

[Pygoscelis]

Snakelegs (the agnostic you are refering to?) just said its deep and powerful. Didn't say anything about beautiful, unless I missed it. They putting words in your mouth Snakelegs or did I miss a post of yours?

Speaking as an athiest myself, I too would agree that surrender is deep and poweful, but I find it very far from beautiful, quite the opposite in my case.

The word surrender to me just means giving up freedom. And I view freedom as a wonderful thing.

 

[- Qatada -]

Hi Psygoscelis.


You're not actually free because if one doesn't obey Allaah, the person is still a slave of society. And if you go against what everyone else does, the person is classed as an outcast, so they may follow the society - hence they become a slave to their society to be accepted by the people.



Peace.

 

[Fishman]

I have heard it said that in Christianity faith is what matters most, whereas in Islam good deeds/works is what matters most.

So, going back to my original question: How different are the views of Islam and Christianity with regards to the importance of faith and good deeds?

Peace

From how my favourite scholar and former teacher descirbed it to me, faith and works are both important in Islam, but faith is the most important of them all. Every Muslim goes to paradise based on faith, but the ones who sinned and did bad deeds too much will have to go into the fire for a split second first. However, being in the fire for a split second will seem like ages to them, because it is so bad.

 

[Keltoi]

From how my favourite scholar and former teacher descirbed it to me, faith and works are both important in Islam, but faith is the most important of them all. Every Muslim goes to paradise based on faith, but the ones who sinned and did bad deeds too much will have to go into the fire for a split second first. However, being in the fire for a split second will seem like ages to them, because it is so bad.

That seems odd to me.

 

[glo]

Snakelegs (the agnostic you are refering to?) just said its deep and powerful. Didn't say anything about beautiful, unless I missed it. They putting words in your mouth Snakelegs or did I miss a post of yours?

Perhaps you are right.
I read the replies rather quickly, and on second reading I realise that Grace Seeker also did not actually comment on whether he considered submission to be beautiful or otherwise.

So I have to admit that I put words in people's mouhs and made rather large assumptions ... but knowing Grace Seeker and snakelegs I am fairly sure that they will be forgiving towards me!

Speaking as an athiest myself, I too would agree that surrender is deep and poweful, but I find it very far from beautiful, quite the opposite in my case.

The word surrender to me just means giving up freedom. And I view freedom as a wonderful thing.

I can understand that you, as an atheist would think so. I am married to an atheist, and he finds the very thought of submitting to God (or anybody for that matter) deeply disturbing ...

My personal view is that by submitting to God you gain freedom much greater than the one you surrendered to him.
I don't expect that to make any sense to you, but that's the only way I can express it.

Peace

 

[snakelegs]

well, i didn't mention beauty - but why not?
it may just be individual relations to words.
"surrender" does not necessarily mean a weakness - sometimes it is a great strength. paradoxical, i know.
there is a spiritual version of surrender that goes beyond the way the word is normally used.