Female Foeticide

[in-the-shadows]

brother, Mad_scientist agrees with all your points. He made that sarcastic devil's advocate point to show how hypocritical the atheists in this forums are. If only you read all the previous posts of these atheists, then you will understand.

wsalam,

i see, i did not pick up on the sarcasm. i see now that it was just to make the kaafirs see their contradictory beliefs. thanks for clarifying, jazakAllah.

 

[al yunan]

Salam to all,

After reading these posts one can only conclude how alien is the sixth principle of Iman to most.
To all Muslims please read the story of Umar r.a and his daughter he buried as it may help Inshallah comprehend the above.
Another observation on a religiously neutral point thus including all; the ease with which the word "cide" (murder) is used leaves any one older pessimistic about the future.
Cynicism, ignorance of realities and semantically used euphemisms won't consciously absolve none but those who never had a heart to start with.

May Allah S.W.T protects us from this world's Thulum.
Masalam

 

[in-the-shadows]

Just because there are no cultures that you are aware of in which males are not a liability does not mean such a thing does not occur. Maybe it occurs on a far away planet inhabited by a species similar to us?

I never suggested that female foeticide is a issue only after the feminist movement. What I said was that feminist oriented among medical ethicists find it is FINE for mothers to abort because a fetus is dependent on mother and hence mother has a say in aborting it or not but then at the same time they are against selective abortion of female fetuses on the basis that it is undesirable by parents. I smell hypocrisy here. Dictating parents what they should do while allowing them to abort fetuses in the first place!

So as a Muslim, I am not concerned with abortion of just female fetuses. I am concerned with abortion itself. Whether it is more in male fetuses or female fetuses, I do not care because death of 10 female fetuses is no different from death of 1 male fetus or death of 1 female fetus is no different from death of 10 male fetuses. Regarding Quran's reference to burial of daughters alive, mind you, they were not fetuses. Secondly, not all Arabs practiced it. Thirdly, its a specific ruling which applies to Arabs in the sense that not all cultures "bury their daughters alive." they kill by different means.

Regarding culture, I think it is very shallow to say that all those unethical practices among South East Asian Muslims are from Hinduism. Hinduism is not an immoral religion. Yes, those caste things are there but then there are many many Hindus who disagree for centuries with those parts of their religious scriptures.

Can you tell/show me any Muslim who is not effected by his culture? A white revert to Islam interprets some things in Islam according to his culture/background/way of thinking. A brown Muslim interprets some things in Islam according to his background. So does a black Muslim. There is no vacuum in which all are the same. Such a utopian idealistic reality never existed, not even during Prophet's time. Even Sahaaba (as) differed hugely with each other on many issues because of their different sub-cultures, etiquette, ways of thinking, education level etc.

yes, i do agree, maybe somewhere, somehow, there may be a culture in which males are a liability and male killings could occur, it's happened in the past, the Pharoah's slayings of the male offspring of the Isrealites. perhaps sometime in the future men will be seen as a liability and there may be a male foeticide. sure. right now, in any of the prevalent cultures in the world? no, not by a long shot.

yes it is hypocricy to say, abort your baby sure, if you don't want it, but don't JUST abort because it is a girl. i agree that that is wrong, i never disagreed to that. and your views on not discriminating between the gender of the baby when describing foeticide is also noble and everything, it's great that you and others things foeticide in general is wrong and should be spoken against, but lets say, there is genocide occurring all over the world, and then someone says, we should speak up against the genocide in this country especially because the situation there is dire. would you say no, i am against genocide in general, but i won't say this genocide in particular is worthy of special attention? this is the same thing. i get that killing babies in general is wrong, but it's a reality that more female babies are being killed, so in my opinion at least we do need to say, abortion is haram and wrong, what's even worse is the higher proportion of baby girls killed because if it is a huge realistic concern, we do need to address it separately and i see nothing immoral about it so long as you recognize you are against abortion in general, and then you can cite this as an example of the evil effects of abortion.

yes it was babies being buried alive, they had no ultrasound technology at the time or maybe they would perhaps practice foeticide also, not all arabs did it, agreed and i don't understand what you mean it is a ruling for arabs specifically, point is that killing of females in particular is the issue, not the way in which it was done. yes, arabs used to bury, so that is what is mentioned in the Quraan, but Allah would hold all those accountable who killed their girls in particular. both male and female infanticide is denounced in our religion, male infanticide is mentioned much more than female infanticide (as far as i know) in the Quraan, but male foeticide is not being practiced at a large scale right now, female foeticide is.

it is not shallow to say those unethical practices are from Hinduism because Islam says Hinduism is wrong, so i will not agree with you when you say it is not an immoral religion. define an immoral and a moral religion for me? it is a religion which has a lot of wrong, and yes, immoral practices, immoral not based on my own understanding of morals which i have invented, no, but rather immoral as determined by Islam. Islam says it is immoral that we have castes, because Allah creates us all equal. and are you really going to argue that so many of the wrong practices among people in SE asia are not from hinduism? isn't it Hinduism which has garba and pooja and dance and singing as a huge part of their religion, and then muslims have incorporated these practices into their culture, and yes it's all wrong and immoral and it all stems from hinduism. it's hindu women who reveal their body and it's hindu people who mix freely amongst each other, use of amulets, putting religious scriptures on walls, all of these are practices derived from hinduism, and because muslims will see hindus doing these things they will want to copy them. if Hindus disagree with their own religion, great, they should see the sense in Islam and convert in that case.

sure there are no muslims who are absolutely free of culturalism and are not at all affected by it. no argument to that. but what i am saying is that we should try our best to not give culture so much importance that it becomes our way of life as opposed to Islam. that is all i'm arguing. culture can have an influence, sure, it's impossible for it not to have an effect, but we should try to minimize that effect especially if that effect is unIslamic.

 

[Trumble]

Many if not most female foeticides are performed in China, not exactly the poorest parts of the world (in fact, china will overtake the US as the #1 economy in less than a decade).

Neither is India, according to that measure. Both countries have far bigger populations than the US or, indeed, anywhere else either than each other. Unfortunately, the size of the economy measured by country is no measure of the distribution and extent of wealth, and the poorest Chinese are little wealthier than the poorest Indians.

It is caused by the one child policy, and the chinese culture (buddhism play a huge part in chinese psyche, mind you) which places male as more superior than female, forcing the parents to resort to female foeticide when they find out through USG scan that their firstborn is female.

Regarding the one child policy, probably. You will find, I think the relevant parts of the 'Chinese psyche' were established long before Buddhism reached it, apart from those instilled by Maoism . If you do, though, actually have anything sensible to say that might link the two, mind you , please feel free to produce it.

 

[CosmicPathos]

isn't it Hinduism which has garba and pooja and dance and singing as a huge part of their religion, and then muslims have incorporated these practices into their culture, and yes it's all wrong and immoral and it all stems from hinduism. it's hindu women who reveal their body and it's hindu people who mix freely amongst each other, use of amulets, putting religious scriptures on walls, all of these are practices derived from hinduism, and because muslims will see hindus doing these things they will want to copy them. if Hindus disagree with their own religion, great, they should see the sense in Islam and convert in that case.

I have to say that many Muslim women are also very competitive in trying to show who can show the max body with min clothes.

Yes, I will speak against female foeticide. But not when I realize that the person next to me who is raising this voice is a hypocrite: the one who allows abortion but then calls female foeticide unethical. I will not stand by this person and never join in hands in a "common cause." It is not a common cause.

w salam

 

[Ramadhan]

Neither is India, according to that measure. Both countries have far bigger populations than the US or, indeed, anywhere else either than each other. Unfortunately, the size of the economy measured by country is no measure of the distribution and extent of wealth, and the poorest Chinese are little wealthier than the poorest Indians.

You are now trying to obscure the fallacy of your argument. You argued that female foeticide is caused by poverty and hence the way to combat and eradicate female foeticide is by developing the economy. And I argued back that that is not the case, case in example china who is more economically developing than most countries, and yet has high proportion of female foeticide. If it were caused by poverty, certainly female foeticides would have been found a lot higher in sub sharan africa, carribean and the poorest latin american countries, but such cases are not found in those areas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-selective_abortionA 2005 study estimated that over 90 million females were "missing" from the expected population in Afghanistan, Bangladesh, China, India, Pakistan, South Korea and Taiwan alone, and suggested that sex-selective abortion plays a role in this deficit.[2][3] India's 2011 census shows a serious decline in the number of girls under the age of seven - activists fear eight million female fetuses may have been aborted between 2001 and 2011. [4] Some research suggests that culture plays a larger role than economic conditions in gender preference and sex-selective abortion, because such deviations in sex ratios do not exist in sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean.[2]

Another example: female infanticides were so widespread among the greeks in 200 BC, who actually was the most advanced society at that time, that less in 1% of 6,000 families in Delphi has daughter.http://www.gendercide.org/case_infanticide.html

 

[GuestFellow]

^^ whats your problem? its their freedom to choose what kind of kids they want.

I think some members have misunderstood your post. :/

 

[Perseveranze]

Pre-Islam they didn't have technology to do abortions, when the child came out female she'd be taken straight to the burial place.

All these female foeticide's that are aborted will on the day of judgement ask questions.

And when the girl-child that was buried alive is asked, For what crime she was killed; [Quran 81:8-9]

 

[selsebil]

It's just like before Islam "jahiliyyat" period.

 

[Trumble]

You are now trying to obscure the fallacy of your argument. You argued that female foeticide is caused by poverty and hence the way to combat and eradicate female foeticide is by developing the economy. And I argued back that that is not the case, case in example china who is more economically developing than most countries, and yet has high proportion of female foeticide. If it were caused by poverty, certainly female foeticides would have been found a lot higher in sub sharan africa, carribean and the poorest latin american countries, but such cases are not found in those areas

I'm am doing no such thing. You, however, are creating the inevitable naidamar (Ramadhan? - seems you have joined the name-change club) strawman in place of anything resembling an argument. Which is rather odd as I don't actually think we disagree, except on your supposed economic disparity between China and India. That is easily exposed as nonsense, as can be seen here. By the same ranking, GDP, India comes in at a positively poverty stricken tenth between Canada and Russia. But, as I said, as there are so many people, the poorest are very poor indeed. As they are in China. Moving on;

There is no 'fallacy' of (or in) my argument even the facts were wrong (go look the word up if you don't know what it means) - which they aren't. If you look again you will see that I suggested female foeticide was the result not of 'poverty', but of inequality, specifically the difference in perceived economic desirability between male children and female children. Obviously poverty is involved to some extent, as for those affluent enough there would not be an issue at all, but the primary issue is cultural, not economic.

 

[yas2010]

It's just like before Islam "jahiliyyat" period.​

Its seems so true. Pre-Islam it is well noted that female children were buried alive.


​

 

[LauraS]

madscientist- I suggest you read the article again so you actually understand what this thread is about. My response had nothing to do with being a feminist reaction the girls being aborted as opposed to males it's the fact that girls are being aborted specifically because girls are not considered as worthwhile as boys. I was pointing out that if they all aborted their girls the species couldn't continue anyway! And I don't know why you had to bring atheists into the argument, what had that got to do anything? Many many atheists don't agree with abortion full stop.

 

[Trumble]

Never mind .

 

[Abu Zainab]

This horrible and cruel culture of dowry should be dealt with....and then like Trumble said this problem will be solved by itself. The men have a greater role to play. They should outright refuse to take dowry even if they have to go against their parents.

 

[جوري]

I don't understand this thing about dowry, shouldn't it be the other way around? what do men bring into these types of marriages anyway- have they no obligations outside of 'family name'?

 

[Ramadhan]

I don't understand this thing about dowry, shouldn't it be the other way around? what do men bring into these types of marriages anyway- have they no obligations outside of 'family name'?

In some cultures, it is the women who have to "buy" the groom.
People of West Sumatra (Padang) in Indonesia is matrilineal, and the bride family will give dowry to the groom family, which is quite starnge because the people of Padang are also among the most Islamically-inclined people in Indonesia.

 

[Riana17]

there must be FITRA that killing is not allowed in any case.

 

[Riana17]

there must be FITRA that killing is not allowed in any case.

I meant
"there must be FITRA that killing is not allowed in any case (in this article)"

 

[ardianto]

In some cultures, it is the women who have to "buy" the groom.
People of West Sumatra (Padang) in Indonesia is matrilineal, and the bride family will give dowry to the groom family, which is quite starnge because the people of Padang are also among the most Islamically-inclined people in Indonesia.

"Buy the groom" is not the right word to describe marriage procession in Minang ethnic (Padang is their capital city)

Minang people are known as matrilineal people that mothers are "the leaders". Different than in Patrilineal society which the groom (and his family) come to bride home and ask the bride parents "May I marry your daughter". In Minang, the bride family come to the groom home and ask him "Will you marry our daughter". Then the bride family give Mahar (as a gift to the new member in the family) to the groom, but not in fantastic amount.

But from many stories that I have heard, in India, many groom families ask Dowry in fantastic amount. It's look like a payment of buying groom from the groom families.

There is no any case which a Minang husband kill or torture his wife because Mahar. But in India, there are many case the husband (or his family) torture or kill the wife because the wife family can't afford to pay Dowry.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

Salam

Well at least these babies don’t have to look forward to acid attack or being beaten.