First Corrupted Verse

[rpwelton]

I have difficulty following your logic here. Jesus was a prophet according to Islamic teaching, he came before prophet Mohammed and he taught in the gospels about atonement so is the Gospel New Testament Jesus the one you are talking about?

Those are Paul's teachings. The fact that you consider him a "super-apostle" or "prophet" is your own belief. We are discussing what Jesus actually taught himself, as Muslims we can believe Jesus, but we will not believe Paul. Please quote me what Jesus said about dying for the sins of humanity.

Jesus did not bring "The Gospels", he brought the Gospel, which we do not have today.

 

[Brasco]

Those four writers were just historians. They never met jesus (pbuh). The writers didn't seem to know their last names how can one trust their fate on that book?!

 

[rpwelton]

^^ True. Although the last names argument is actually somewhat of a weak one, because surnames were not common practice back then.

However, the Gospels were written by unknown authors, with the earliest one being about 40 years after the death of Jesus, and then decades later they were attributed to some of the disciples. For instance, Matthew wasn't written by Matthew, but was actually attributed to him later.

 

[Brasco]

That's why it reads like that: "According to..."

 

[Hugo]

Those are Paul's teachings. The fact that you consider him a "super-apostle" or "prophet" is your own belief. We are discussing what Jesus actually taught himself, as Muslims we can believe Jesus, but we will not believe Paul. Please quote me what Jesus said about dying for the sins of humanity.

Jesus did not bring "The Gospels", he brought the Gospel, which we do not have today.

I will get back to you on your first point later but tell me how do you know Jesus brought the Gospel if we don't have it because logically if we don't have it we don't know what it contained do we?

 

[Brasco]

The faith of Jesus (pbuh) got changed: when many jews start to follow this faith, people like paul began to corrupt this faith of jesus (pbuh), they wanted to misguide jews. He did not see jesus (pbuh) in a vision, it was rather the devil he saw.

 

[rpwelton]

I will get back to you on your first point later but tell me how do you know Jesus brought the Gospel if we don't have it because logically if we don't have it we don't know what it contained do we?

Look, I'm a Muslim because I believe the Qur'an to be the Word of God. It tells us that Jesus brought a book called the Gospel. Now, there are several reasons to believe this "Gospel" is not the 4 Gospels we have today:

1) The 4 Gospels give differing accounts of the same event. To Christians, it's not a big deal, but as Muslims we believe that God would not reveal a book that contradicts itself. Therefor the 4 Gospels cannot be the True Word of God in entirety

2) 3 of the 4 Gospels describe the crucifixion of Jesus. How can Jesus receive revelation of his own crucifixion while he's on the cross and the events to come afterwards? Especially since none of the disciples were present (according to the 4 Gospels). This is similar to the Torah in the Old Testament being claimed to be written entirely by Moses; clearly if it describes his death it cannot be written entirely by him.

3) The 4 Gospels have changed over time. Even though today's more recent Bible editions go back to the earliest manuscripts, we don't even know if what we have today are the texts that were originally penned by the so-called authors.

So in short, the 4 Gospels do not hold up to the qualifications that would make them a book from God. Therefor, we believe what is confirmed by the Qur'an and authentic hadith, but we have to reject all that goes against it, because these are seen as changes made by man, and not the Words of God.

I hope that clears things up.

 

[جوري]

Jesus came in for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.. actually mentioned in the bible, how many times must we quote it?
Paul/Saul was no friend to Jesus, in fact he was engaged to Poppea you know the chick who whispered to Nero to burn down Rome...All of a sudden he has humanities best interest at heart? eating pigs which by the way Jesus himself was said to have exorcised a possessed woman demons into them and compelled the pigs to walk off a cliff to their death, all of a sudden they are edible, all of a sudden the sabbath is on a sunday, all of a sudden no more circumcisions for males, basically Jesus abrogates all the commandments of the OT through his nemesis a man according to (Gene) he has never met!
why doesn't 'god' choose more wisely? Even his own apostles (peter) forsake him thrice the night before his alleged crucifixion... don't you think a god would know better?

I can't believe that grown adult would take a man for a God.. even the santa fairy tales and easter bunnies stop at age 6 or so.. how can folks go into their adulthood taking a man who was sent to a select few for a God.. how absurd is this?

 

[Walter]

Just a comment Mr. Grenville :X

Submission to Allah(swt) means to follow all that he wills and all that he wants us to do. He has sent the prophets to guide us on how to follow what he wants. In submission to Him we should not be selective on which law, commandment or prophet we should believe into. We are just but slaves of Allah(swt) therefore we should believe and follow all that he commands, which was relayed to us through all his chosen ones(peace and blessings be upon them all).Now, i.e. as a Jew, you would follow Moses'(puh) and his Torah only and would reject Jesus and Muhammad(peace and blessings be upon them). This would not be called submission because you will follow only some of what he wants you to do and rejects the other orders. In Islam, we are taught on how to do things, all things, in every aspects of living. how to take a bath, how to eat, how to pray........and so on. and this is how Allah(swt) want us to do things in life, an order from him through the prophet Muhammad(pbuh)

Dear Basit:

You have correctly repeated your Islamic religious tradition. However, you should examine it in order to confirm that it does not contradict the teachings of the Qur’an. Please note that Jesus was a Jew and so were all of His disciples and early followers.

The Messiah was sent to reconcile us to God so that we can cultivate a friendship with God. Juveniles should be taught to follow the religious traditions and rituals until they are mature enough to choose a relationship with God.

Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.

Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:21-26)​

Basit, you have described the end of those who choose to submit to Islamic religious tradition. However, the Qur’an provides a different path for those who will submit to God.

Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to God, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For God did take Abraham for a friend. (4:125)​

Basit, the choice is yours. You can choose friendship with God by trusting the work of the Messiah, Jesus, or you can choose to follow your religious traditions which conflict with the truth of the Qur’an. You decide.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[rpwelton]

Grenville, what you are proposing is a dangerous path.

If one just takes the path of "friendship" with God without taking into account any laws or rituals, then people will start making up their own "paths". Is this not how religions such as modern day Christianity and Hinduism etc started? They have "love" but do not have any knowledge. In Islam we have love of Allah, but we also have knowledge of Allah. You need a balance of the two.

If you actually read the Qur'an it continually talks about praying, fasting, following the example of Muhammad, etc. Are you blind to all this?

 

[جوري]

You are very ill informed of the Quran.. and I think the choice is clear

13:16
Say: "Who is the Lord and Sustainer of the heavens and the earth?" Say: "(It is) Allah." Say: "Do ye then take (for worship) protectors other than Him, such as have no power either for good or for harm to themselves?" Say: "Are the blind equal with those who see? Or the depths of darkness equal with Light?" Or do they assign to Allah partners who have created (anything) as He has created, so that the creation seemed to them similar? Say: "Allah is the Creator of all things: He is the One, the Supreme and Irresistible."

 

[Muhseen]

The thread is really fascinating. It uncovers many lies in the bible. I like it.

 

[Oleander]

Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?



Matt,5:22"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.



>>>Paul, according to Jesus, is roasted right now on hellfire.

Tha's the one who wrote more than 50% of the Christians scripture!!

 

[Oleander]

" JESUS said to them " I SAW SATAN FALL, LIKE LIGHTNING, FROM HEAVEN"
(Luke 10:18)



60 years later:


" As SAUL journeyed he came near Damascus and suddenly A LIGHT FROM HEAVEN (LIGHTNING) shone around him and he fell to the ground"
(Acts 9:3,4)

 

[Hugo]

Re: No corroboration

The faith of Jesus (pbuh) got changed: when many jews start to follow this faith, people like paul began to corrupt this faith of jesus (pbuh), they wanted to misguide jews. He did not see jesus (pbuh) in a vision, it was rather the devil he saw.

You might be right but how do you know this? You certainly did not get it from the Bible so where does this unattributed information come from?

 

[Hugo]

The faith of Jesus (pbuh) got changed: when many jews start to follow this faith, people like paul began to corrupt this faith of jesus (pbuh), they wanted to misguide jews. He did not see jesus (pbuh) in a vision, it was rather the devil he saw.

" JESUS said to them " I SAW SATAN FALL, LIKE LIGHTNING, FROM HEAVEN" (Luke 10:18) 60 years later:

" As SAUL journeyed he came near Damascus and suddenly A LIGHT FROM HEAVEN (LIGHTNING) shone around him and he fell to the ground"
(Acts 9:3,4)

One assumes that "falling like lightening" means it was instant whereas in the second case it was just a light so how you can connect the two and I suppose argue that Paul was Satan seems to be stretching it a bit don't you think? On this kind of logic if I found and elephant in a garage I would have to conclude it was a car.

 

[rpwelton]

One assumes that "falling like lightening" means it was instant whereas in the second case it was just a light so how you can connect the two and I suppose argue that Paul was Satan seems to be stretching it a bit don't you think? On this kind of logic if I found and elephant in a garage I would have to conclude it was a car.

He is not concluding that Paul is Satan, but rather that the being which Paul saw descend sounds rather familiar to how Jesus describes Satan. Therefore, the being appearing to Paul could have been Satan.

I've never seen that reference before, but the similarity in description is remarkable.

 

[Oleander]

One assumes that "falling like lightening" means it was instant whereas in the second case it was just a light so how you can connect the two and I suppose argue that Paul was Satan seems to be stretching it a bit don't you think? On this kind of logic if I found and elephant in a garage I would have to conclude it was a car.

>>>Do you think Jesus saw satan falling down?

 

[Hugo]

The thread is really fascinating. It uncovers many lies in the bible. I like it.

He is not concluding that Paul is Satan, but rather that the being which Paul saw descend sounds rather familiar to how Jesus describes Satan. Therefore, the being appearing to Paul could have been Satan.

I've never seen that reference before, but the similarity in description is remarkable.

He must say what he concludes. However, there is nothing in the passage that even hints it being anything to do with Satan and just looking at supposed similarities is hardly rational is it and looks more like spin that anything else. Arguments that hang on "..could have been" are almost always fallacies because it could have been anything from little green men to Lord Lucan but that is not what the passage says is it?

 

[Walter]

Grenville, what you are proposing is a dangerous path.

If one just takes the path of "friendship" with God without taking into account any laws or rituals, then people will start making up their own "paths". Is this not how religions such as modern day Christianity and Hinduism etc started? They have "love" but do not have any knowledge. In Islam we have love of Allah, but we also have knowledge of Allah. You need a balance of the two.

If you actually read the Qur'an it continually talks about praying, fasting, following the example of Muhammad, etc. Are you blind to all this?

Dear Rpwelton:

You seem to have misunderstood. I agree that a combination of love and knowledge is important. Of course, the knowledge must investigated.

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15)​

Perhaps an analogy can help to explain what I mean.

When I was younger, I obeyed my father out of a fear of the consequences of disobedience. However, as I grew older, the fear and respect that I had for my father developed into a combination of love and respect. My interaction with him is not now motivated by any fear, but by love and friendship and respect.

A distant observer may see me serving my father, and may think that I am motivated by fear. However, if the observer will come near, he would realize that I honor my father, not because I have to, but because I want to, and my motive is love.

Similarly, as a youth, I obeyed God out of fear. When I was reconciled to Him through the work of the Messiah, then that relationship changed. I still obey, but out of love. The differing types of relationship appear to be:

1. the obedience as of a slave to the predictable words of a messenger of God; and
2. the obedience as of a son to the voice of God.

I choose the path of an obedient son, who keeps His commandments, but is also directed by God.

“The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:8)​

Regards,
Grenville