First Corrupted Verse

[Hugo]

>>>Do you think Jesus saw satan falling down?

That is what the words say but it most likely is an illusion to what happens to Satan now that redemption is near. Let me ask you do you think that Prophet Mohammed's heart was literally removed and washed with snow from a Golden bowl?

There is always this difficulty of knowing whether something is to be taken literally or not don't you agree?

 

[Oleander]

Does any Christians believe Ussama Bin Ladin, if he claim what Paul claim without a single wittness?

Paul at his time was as Bin Ladin nowdays, right?

So, why you believe God will put his trust, with a killer, who never repent?

I understand if Paul walk to James, Peter and ask for forgivness, but the man (for God sake), was on his way with some killers to kill God's people!!

Please, wake up.

 

[Walter]

.. and I think the choice is clear

13:16
Say: "Who is the Lord and Sustainer of the heavens and the earth?" Say: "(It is) Allah." Say: "Do ye then take (for worship) protectors other than Him, such as have no power either for good or for harm to themselves?" Say: "Are the blind equal with those who see? Or the depths of darkness equal with Light?" Or do they assign to Allah partners who have created (anything) as He has created, so that the creation seemed to them similar? Say: "Allah is the Creator of all things: He is the One, the Supreme and Irresistible."

Hi Gossamer:

We are in agreement.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[rpwelton]

Dear Rpwelton:

You seem to have misunderstood. I agree that a combination of love and knowledge is important. Of course, the knowledge must investigated.

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15)​

Perhaps an analogy can help to explain what I mean.

When I was younger, I obeyed my father out of a fear of the consequences of disobedience. However, as I grew older, the fear and respect that I had for my father developed into a combination of love and respect. My interaction with him is not now motivated by any fear, but by love and friendship and respect.

A distant observer may see me serving my father, and may think that I am motivated by fear. However, if the observer will come near, he would realize that I honor my father, not because I have to, but because I want to, and my motive is love.

Similarly, as a youth, I obeyed God out of fear. When I was reconciled to Him through the work of the Messiah, then that relationship changed. I still obey, but out of love. The differing types of relationship appear to be:

1. the obedience as of a slave to the predictable words of a messenger of God; and
2. the obedience as of a son to the voice of God.

I choose the path of an obedient son, who keeps His commandments, but is also directed by God.

“The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:8)​

Regards,
Grenville

Your analogy is irrelevant. Once you're beyond 18 (or whatever age adulthood is in your country), your father can't do anything to you, therefor you have no reason to fear him.

God, on the other hand, is the ONLY one that can harm or help you. You have plenty of reasons to fear Him, as well as Love Him.

 

[Hugo]

^^ True. Although the last names argument is actually somewhat of a weak one, because surnames were not common practice back then.

However, the Gospels were written by unknown authors, with the earliest one being about 40 years after the death of Jesus, and then decades later they were attributed to some of the disciples. For instance, Matthew wasn't written by Matthew, but was actually attributed to him later.

Let us suppose you are right (though how you can know this I cannot say). Does that mean that everything in the Gospel of Matthew is valueless? What is your point?

 

[GreyKode]

Hi Gossamer:

We are in agreement.

Regards,
Grenville

You are simply following your desires, interpreting everything as you wish, with absolutely no evidence to back it up.

 

[Oleander]

He must say what he concludes. However, there is nothing in the passage that even hints it being anything to do with Satan and just looking at supposed similarities is hardly rational is it and looks more like spin that anything else. Arguments that hang on "..could have been" are almost always fallacies because it could have been anything from little green men to Lord Lucan but that is not what the passage says is it?

>>>Hugo, can you name one sigle verse in the OT (what do you call prophecy), which rxactly apply to Jesus without twisting , changing and blown up the whole chapter?

 

[rpwelton]

Let us suppose you are right (though how you can know this I cannot say). Does that mean that everything in the Gospel of Matthew is valueless? What is your point?

Of course not. We believe that the 4 Gospels do contain truth, because many of Jesus' sayings correspond to Islamic teachings. However, we cannot claim that they are 100% the Word of God because of the issues I mentioned in an earlier post.

As far as the unknown authorship of the Gospels is concerned, this is not something claimed by Muslim scholars, but rather by Christian and Biblical historians and scholars.

 

[Hugo]

Grenville, what you are proposing is a dangerous path.

If one just takes the path of "friendship" with God without taking into account any laws or rituals, then people will start making up their own "paths". Is this not how religions such as modern day Christianity and Hinduism etc started? They have "love" but do not have any knowledge. In Islam we have love of Allah, but we also have knowledge of Allah. You need a balance of the two.

If you actually read the Qur'an it continually talks about praying, fasting, following the example of Muhammad, etc. Are you blind to all this?

You have a point but at the start, during the first revelations with regard to Islam there was no body knowledge, no qu'ran to read was there? It was the same with the Bible, it started with Abraham coming out of the civilisations that existed at that time. So I don't think this is in any way a sound argument.

 

[Hugo]

Of course not. We do not disregard anything in the Bible entirely as long as there is still some truth in it. We believe that the 4 Gospels do contain truth, because many of Jesus' sayings correspond to Islamic teachings.

As far as the unknown authorship of the Gospels is concerned, this is not something claimed by Muslim scholars, but rather by Christian and Biblical historians and scholars.

I am glad we agree that the Gospels have value. My problem is that they are all we have and they pre-date the written Qu'ran by a few several centuries. In the normal course of things I think you would agree that the earliest copy is the one that take precedence and hence if the Qu'ran differs from the Gospels the Qu'ran must be in error - in other words I can repeat what you say but with perhaps more credibility "We do not disregard anything in the Qu'ran entirely as long as there is still some truth in it. We believe that the Qu'ran contains truth, because many of its sayings correspond to Biblical teachings" - your comment?

Let me say, I have no concerns here as long as we don't bash each other but rather share our common values.

 

[Walter]

Your analogy is irrelevant. Once you're beyond 18 (or whatever age adulthood is in your country), your father can't do anything to you, therefor you have no reason to fear him.

God, on the other hand, is the ONLY one that can harm or help you. You have plenty of reasons to fear Him, as well as Love Him.

Ok Rpwelton:

Let us simply agree to disagree.

Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. (2 Timothy 2:14-17)​

Farewell,
Grenville

 

[GreyKode]

Grenville these are you're own words.

The Qur’an makes it clear that Islam did not start with Mohammed.

Originally Posted by rpwelton View Post
Islam is not a new religion; it is the religion of all the prophets and has existed since the time of Adam. However, you cannot take the Qur'an as a whole, believe it is true, and still be a Christian. This is a grave contradiction.

That is classic Islamic religious tradition completely unsupported by the Qur’an. It is promoted by Islamic religious leaders and blindly believed by adherents, but it is entirely wrong since it conflicts with the Qur’an.

 

[GreyKode]

I am glad we agree that the Gospels have value. My problem is that they are all we have and they pre-date the written Qu'ran by a few several centuries. In the normal course of things I think you would agree that the earliest copy is the one that take precedence and hence if the Qu'ran differs from the Gospels the Qu'ran must be in error - can you coimment?

The OT predates the NT, applying you're same logic we would find most of the NT in error...

 

[Hugo]

The OT predates the NT, applying you're same logic we would find most of the NT in error...

So you agree that the logic is correct is that what you are saying that by the time we get to the Qu'ran nothing can be trusted?

 

[جوري]

I believe the Brother told you, that, that which is in agreement with Islamic teaching can be taken as correct and that which contradicts it can be thrown out. Either way Christianity is obsolete given that Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and later most if not all the OT commandments were abrogated through some third party character who wasn't even chosen as an apostle!
What is left exactly for one to practice? I mean what are your religious tenets, short of listening to the organ and clapping your hands in churches?

Certainly if I had an organic Chemistry book that was filled with errors, I wouldn't dismiss it as a whole, but have no reason to refer to it if I had a major final exam coming up, if a revised and improved edition is out logic would dictate that it would be what I'd use to ace my finals.
else why are you not practicing old testament laws and adhering to their religious obligations?

 

[Zafran]

the gospels (that they have today) are like hadiths - without the hadith science.

 

[جوري]

indeed, you have a point Br. Zafran.. even hadiths come with a long chain of Isnad, something one can't claim of the bible, and it certainly leaves no room for comparison between the Quran and the bible...
the bible is a collection of parables most written by Saul..
the Quran is the literal word of Allah swt.

 

[GreyKode]

So you agree that the logic is correct is that what you are saying that by the time we get to the Qu'ran nothing can be trusted?

Not quiet, why do you accept the NT to abrogate things in the OT and to be more authoritative?, because you believe that it came from the same source GOD although it came later.
So your logic cannot apply here because the source (as we muslims believe) is non other than GOD.

 

[Basit]

The Qur'an we are studying today contains the same words as before it was first written. Every word and every letter in the arabic Qur'an was the same as before. Before it was written, it was first memorized by the prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and once every year, he recites it to Jibreel(puh) to confirm its accurateness. he teached the Qur'an to his followers from which they memorized as well and then into writing.

i dont know yet about the christian new testament bible as i didnt fully read it yet. what i knew is that Jesus(puh) has the very popular teaching which goes "love God with all your heart and honor your father and your mother". but i still dint read any passge that goes, i.e. worship me also, which makes me think the christian belief might be wrong when they do praise and worship for the cross because under the roof of Islam, there is only one God, all praise and worship shall be offered to Him and Him only.

assalam alaykum!

 

[Hugo]

I believe the Brother told you, that, that which is in agreement with Islamic teaching can be taken as correct and that which contradicts it can be thrown out. Either way Christianity is obsolete given that Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and later most if not all the OT commandments were abrogated through some third party character who wasn't even chosen as an apostle!
What is left exactly for one to practice? I mean what are your religious tenets, short of listening to the organ and clapping your hands in churches?

Certainly if I had an organic Chemistry book that was filled with errors, I wouldn't dismiss it as a whole, but have no reason to refer to it if I had a major final exam coming up, if a revised and improved edition is out logic would dictate that it would be what I'd use to ace my finals.
else why are you not practicing old testament laws and adhering to their religious obligations?

How would you know that your chemistry book was filled with errors whether its a later one or not? It is also crystal clear that one cannot ace your finals just because you have a book.

Which laws are you talking about may I ask, just give a few examples.