for christians : a question about salvation.

[SalamChristian]

Grace Seeker,

I think you stated better than I did the meaning of immediate salvation. To anyone who wants to understand immediate salvation, I endorse Grace Seeker's explanation instead of my own. Forgive me, sometimes anyone can have trouble finding the right words.

As far as eternal salvation goes, I still defer to the definition I provided. The Judgement day is the final judgement. All those who do not find salvation on that day perish.

Also, I agree with the point Grace Seeker makes about God's mercy and grace being the source of salvation, and our coming to see it through trusting in God. This point is in agreement with the scriptural words of Jesus (pbuh) I quoted earlier. Loving god with all of your heart, mind, strength, and spirit, is the equivalent of placing full trust in him (some may not agree with this). Agreed also that "any particular act" doesn't lead to salvation. It is important to recognize, however, that love is not an act but an openness and trust for God on the mental level. Lastly, I absolutely agree that God's work on the cross (and Jesus faithfulness in going onto it) is the beginning of the actual accomplishment of salvation.

Salaam,
Bob

 

[3rddec]

as far as the Original question as asked goes the first reply was by in large correct; all christians believe that the salvation of all men is through the suffering of Christ on the cross for the worlds sin to atone for. the Sin of Adam that initially took man away from the righteous path.

I suggest Muslims easy offended don't read this part, iwould send it privately to PYGOCELIS but am unsure how to do this.

For PYGOCELIS God is not changing his mind rather he is a Just God who Lives by his own law for if God did not live by his own law he could not be Just. God always wanted man to return but he could forgive mans sin but Justice demanded that there was atonement for it. The ancient Jews sacrificed living creatures to attone for their sins, but God was going to sacrifice his only begotton Son to atone for our sins. A just God could not just change the Law and save man just because he wanted to if he did he would not be the Lawfull God he is ; Satan thought he had one a great battle when he caused Adam to fall as he thought he had God trapped by his own Lawfullness but God played his Ace card ; Christ. Now Satan tries to fool the world that it never happened because he cant undue it but he thinks if he hides it he can still win.

LOVE and RESPECT

 

[Woodrow]

as far as the Original question as asked goes the first reply was by in large correct; all christians believe that the salvation of all men is through the suffering of Christ on the cross for the worlds sin to atone for. the Sin of Adam that initially took man away from the righteous path.

I suggest Muslims easy offended don't read this part, iwould send it privately to PYGOCELIS but am unsure how to do this.

For PYGOCELIS God is not changing his mind rather he is a Just God who Lives by his own law for if God did not live by his own law he could not be Just. God always wanted man to return but he could forgive mans sin but Justice demanded that there was atonement for it. The ancient Jews sacrificed living creatures to attone for their sins, but God was going to sacrifice his only begotton Son to atone for our sins. A just God could not just change the Law and save man just because he wanted to if he did he would not be the Lawfull God he is ; Satan thought he had one a great battle when he caused Adam to fall as he thought he had God trapped by his own Lawfullness but God played his Ace card ; Christ. Now Satan tries to fool the world that it never happened because he cant undue it but he thinks if he hides it he can still win.

LOVE and RESPECT

But what was the sacrifice????? The concept of sacrifice means to eternally give up something you value. In the Christian concept of Jesus(as) being sacrificed, there was no sacrifice, because God(swt) did not give up anything. He knew Jesus(swt) would return. There was no sacrifice, if you believe God(swt) sacrificed his son as the son was never given up. Possibly loaned out for a few days, but not given away for all time.

How much of a sacrifice would one be making if he gave away his entire wealth in a check, knowing it will be returned in 3 days?

 

[Sol Invictus]

But what was the sacrifice????? ( a ) The concept of sacrifice means to eternally give up something you value. In the Christian concept of Jesus(as) being sacrificed, there was no sacrifice, because God(swt) did not give up anything. He knew Jesus(swt) would return. There was no sacrifice, if you believe God(swt) sacrificed his son as the son was never given up. Possibly loaned out for a few days, but not given away for all time.

How much of a sacrifice would one be making if he gave away his entire wealth in a check, knowing it will be returned in 3 days?

( a ) that is untrue. if we are trying to make a link with how sacrifice was perceived in the old testament (and as such, in the jewish world view) then it is wrong to claim that sacrifice entails giving up something eternally. if one looks at the old testament, they would see that sacrifice is actually a subset of offerings and is simply the transfer of one's property to god:

a. Fundamentally, sacrifice was the transfer of property from the offerer to God. The OT/Tanaach
laws highlight this aspect in the choice of materials allowed:

"The sacrificial victim had to be taken from the clean animals and birds (Gn. 8:20), and could be bullock, goat, sheep, dove or pigeon (cf. Gn. 15:9), but not camel or ass (Ex. 13:13). These provisions are not to be traced to the idea of sacrifice as ‘food for the gods’ (viz. that the gods ate what man ate)—as might be suggested by Lv. 3:11; 21:6; Ezk. 44:7—for fish (Lv. 11:9) and wild animals (Dt. 12:22) could be eaten but not sacrificed. The principle seems rather to have been that of property (cf. 2 Sa. 24:24), the wild animals being regarded as in some sense already God’s (Ps. 50:9ff.; cf. Is. 40:16), while the domestic animals had become man’s by his labours (Gn. 22:13 is only apparently an exception), and were in a kind of ‘biotic rapport’ with him. This was even more clearly the case with the non-blood offerings, which had been produced by ‘the sweat of his brow’ (cereals, flour, oil, wine, etc.), and were also staple articles of the kitchen. Property unlawfully acquired was not acceptable (Dt. 23:18)." [NBD, s.v. "Sacrifice and Offering"]


This can also be seen from David's comment in 1 Chrn 21.23f: "Araunah said to David, “Take it! Let my lord the king do whatever pleases him. Look, I will give the oxen for the burnt offerings, the threshing sledges for the wood, and the wheat for the grain offering. I will give all this.” 24 But King David replied to Araunah, “No, I insist on paying the full price. I will not take for the LORD what is yours, or sacrifice a burnt offering that costs me nothing.” [Notice that it had to (a) be David's and (b) involve a personal 'loss']

once the property is given over to god, it then becomes his to deal with as sees fit such as when god received the levites as a wave offering and then gave them to aaron (numbers 8:14-19). furthermore, even the very tithes that the people gave to god was to be given back to the people for celebration and relief (Deuteronomy 14):

And you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God, at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the first-born of your herd and your flock, in order that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. 24 “And if the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where the LORD your God chooses to set His name is too far away from you when the LORD your God blesses you, 25 then you shall exchange it for money, and bind the money in your hand and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses. 26 “And you may spend the money for whatever your heart desires, for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27 “Also you shall not neglect the Levite who is in your town, for he has no portion or inheritance among you. 28 “At the end of every third year you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in that year, and shall deposit it in your town. 29 “And the Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance among you, and the alien, the orphan and the widow who are in your town, shall come and eat and be satisfied, in order that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.

The net of this is that the sacrifice/offering of an Israelite/priest transferred ownership of something to God, and God was completely free to do whatever He wanted to with it then. The sacrifice was ‘completed’ when ownership transferred…

And ownership transferred in an act, not in a state. It was in the act of ‘waving’ that the Wave offering was ‘taken’ by God—they didn’t have to keep waving it forever. It was in the act of holding the Heave offering up that it was ‘taken’ by God—they didn’t have to keep it elevated forever. It was in the act of ‘burning’ that the offering was ‘taken’ by God—they didn’t have to keep burning it somehow forever. It was in the act of dying that the offering was ‘taken’ by God—the offering didn’t have to somehow keep dying forever. [Remember also, that it wasn’t ‘been dead’ that was the issue, because the Israelites were forbidden to bring dead animals to the altar for sacrifice—it was death-as-the-giving-over-to act that was the transitional event.]

If God had chosen to “resurrect” a burnt/dead animal, that would be entirely in keeping with His ‘legal rights of property’ under the rules of sacrifice, and would have IN NO WAY ‘un-done’ the act/fact of the sacrificial giving by the Israelite. [Also, remember that the sacrifice was OFTEN given back to the worshipper for food-celebration, but the fact that he/she got it back didn’t ‘undo’ the value of their heart’s devotion to God, as expressed in the offering.]

so from a biblical perspective (which is the only perspective that matters in such a case), the sacrifice of christ is a proper one.

 

[3rddec]

The sacrifice was that Christ the sinless one took on the punishment for the sins of the world and offered up his purest of blood for it and God accepted this as the perfect sacrifice just as he had accepted lesser sacrifices starting with Abel. As Adam handed over control of humanity to Satan ; Christs buys control back with his sacrifice. If you were to imagine all the mental and physical torture Christ endured you can only see it as the greatest sacrifice one human can make. Please dont raise the issue of christians believing Christ is God so not Human as you know our beliefs. Of course this does not mean we are free to sin as much as we like because Christ has paid for them all; we still have to accept Gods open door and when we do we learn to love God better and try not to offend him anymore.

Love and Respect

 

[Ramadhan]

as far as the Original question as asked goes the first reply was by in large correct; all christians believe that the salvation of all men is through the suffering of Christ on the cross for the worlds sin to atone for. the Sin of Adam that initially took man away from the righteous path.

You are correct that only christians believe in the suffering of God who staged a suicide to pay for Adam's sins.

The God of the OT did not even believe this, the jews did not and do not believe this.
Heck, even Jesus did not believe this.

 

[MustafaMc]

God always wanted man to return but he could forgive mans sin but Justice demanded that there was atonement for it. .... Christ has paid for them all

So you say that God "theoretically" could forgive sin, but really He can't forgive even the smallest sin because "justice" demands an atonement or payment must be made to offset that sin. Another way of saying this is that Jesus "bought" your salvation with his blood shed on the cross. Well, you place your hope and faith in the blood of Jesus while I place mine in the the Mercy and Forgiveness of Allah ir-Rahmani r-Raheem (swt). We Muslims believe that Jesus did not even die on the cross. Have you ever entertained the thought of what the obvious implications are if that is in fact the Truth?

 

[Fivesolas]

So you say that God "theoretically" could forgive sin, but really He can't forgive even the smallest sin because "justice" demands an atonement or payment must be made to offset that sin. Another way of saying this is that Jesus "bought" your salvation with his blood shed on the cross. Well, you place your hope and faith in the blood of Jesus while I place mine in the the Mercy and Forgiveness of Allah ir-Rahmani r-Raheem (swt). We Muslims believe that Jesus did not even die on the cross. Have you ever entertained the thought of what the obvious implications are if that is in fact the Truth?

I know 3rddec can answer for himself. But I wanted to respond to the idea.

Have I considered the implication of the idea that Jesus didn't die on the cross? Yes. If Christ is not crucified, and furthermore then, raised from the dead, then I am still in my sins. Without Christ and Him crucified and risen from the dead, there is no Christianity. Whatever would have Christ not crucified is not Christian. The entire focus of the NT is Christ Jesus and Him crucified and raised from the dead.

Anyone who would say otherwise has a serious misunderstanding of the NT. The whole focus is Redemption in Christ Jesus, and that redemption is accomplished by the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.

MustafaMc, it is incorrect to suggest that Christians are not hoping in the mercy, grace, and forgiveness of God. We understand and believe that God's mercy, love, and forgiveness are in Christ Jesus alone.

Let me ask you...have you ever enterntained the thought of what the obvious implications are if in fact Christ Jesus was crucified, buried, and raised from the dead? If He indeed is the Way, the Truth, and the Life?

-fivesolas

 

[MustafaMc]

MustafaMc, it is incorrect to suggest that Christians are not hoping in the mercy, grace, and forgiveness of God. We understand and believe that God's mercy, love, and forgiveness are in Christ Jesus alone.

From my perspective as a former Baptist and member of the Church of Christ is that they have placed their faith in the cross for their salvation. I don't see that Christians believe there can be forgiveness of sins outside of the redeeming sacrifice as you so indicated. Hence, there is not real forgiveness, but rather their debt has been paid as in past tense. Since their hope is in a past event, there is no question of their salvation and no possibility of the Hellfire.

Let me ask you...have you ever enterntained the thought of what the obvious implications are if in fact Christ Jesus was crucified, buried, and raised from the dead? If He indeed is the Way, the Truth, and the Life?

Have you ever heard of 'you can't have your cake and eat it too' or 'you can't have it both ways'. Well, I can't be a Christian and a Muslim just like I can't believe 'Jesus was God's only begotten son' and 'Allah begets not and He is not begotten'. I can't believe 'no one comes to the Father except through the son' and 'Allah forgives not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him.'

The implications are, as you said, obvious if Christianity is the Truth and I have rejected the free gift of Jesus' blood. I have made my decision as I am sure you have too and both of us will pay the consequences or reap the benefit of our choices in this life.

 

[Woodrow]

Having spent a good bit of my life as a Christian I found that this concept of Jesus(as) suffering to pay for man's sins equates to forgiveness not being freely given by God(swt) but had to be bought. I grew to see that as bribary and not as freely given forgiveness. How can we say forgiveness came to us freely when a great price had to be paid for it and we had to borrow the payment from God(swt) to pay him?

I see Allaah(swt) as being with limitless mercy and forgiveness and one who forgives freely to those who will come to him. Allaah(swt) does not set the price of an admission ticket as the criteria to enter heaven. Sincerely repent and Allaah(swt) forgives without charge. Allaah(swt) has the power to forgive sins and no charge or ticket is required. It is through Islam we find truly free forgiveness being offered as it always has been.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I grew to see that as bribary and not as freely given forgiveness. How can we say forgiveness came to us freely when a great price had to be paid for it and we had to borrow the payment from God(swt) to pay him?

perhaps a proper thread on the matter of forgiveness in islam and christianity should be created. that said, forgiveness comes to us freely because we do not deserve it and it is not us who pay the price. god pays it himself and as such we receive a free gift. i don't think that we can question whether forgiveness is free or not given that it is god himself who pays the price for us but i wouldn't mind hearing of any counter-arguments. i believe that in your post you imply that when christians say that they receive the free gift of salvation they mean that nothing in particular enabled them to stand justified before god and that is not what christians say. the aspect of forgiveness which is free is that the christian does not pay the price but rather god himself and as such your critique stands unjustified. i feel like i should give an example:

imagine receiving a brand new tv as a gift. the tv would in fact be free but that doesn't mean that the one who gave you this gift did not have to pay for the tv. this example illustrates quite well how on the matter of whether the christian salvation is a free gift, christianity is above reproach.

( a ) I see Allaah(swt) as being with limitless mercy and forgiveness and one who forgives freely to those who will come to him. ( b ) Allaah(swt) does not set the price of an admission ticket as the criteria to enter heaven.

( a ) i would actually beg to differ. from how islamic forgiveness works, it is far from likely that the muslim deity is actually infinite in the attributes of mercy and/or forgivess. instead he stuck in a precarious situation where one divine attribute always has to trump the other. this cannot make any sense if these attributes truly be infinite but i digress. depending on your response i will certainly elaborate on this matter because i find it certainly fascinating how when one truly thinks of how allah dispenses justice, certain serious problems do arise.

( b ) i would once more have to disagree with you woodrow. it is my understanding that even in islam heaven is predicated on a certain number of things. in islam one has to work for their heaven through a series of obligatory and voluntary acts while in christianity heaven is the free gift. this illustrates two very important concepts. in islam, one has to work for the reward and therefore it is a fear of hell and a desire to escape this realm and enter paradise which drives the muslim to do good while in christianity it is the desire to live in accordance to the nature of god that drives one to do good. the christian does not do good deeds in order to enter heaven, heaven is already given to him. instead he does good deeds to please his father. these two concepts are not unlike the servant and the son. the servant has to continue doing good in order to continually win the favour of the master and does so primarily for personal benefit (not to enter hell), the son however does not have to win the love of the father and does good simply because he loves the father and not for any reward. what reward can he have when everything is already given to him at the start? so all i mean to say is that the concepts of slavery and sonship are crucial to understanding christianity and islam and i would continue as to what ramifications these two concepts have on the matter of love, obediance etc. but i feel that i'm getting severely off-topic. anyway, i will be awaiting your response.

Allaah(swt) has the power to forgive sins and no charge or ticket is required. [...] It is through Islam we find truly free forgiveness being offered as it always has been

i would argue that in islam one simply finds a different kind of "free" forgiveness. if forgiveness is to culminate in the granting of paradise for the muslim then at the very least, heaven to the muslim is not free in the same way that one's paycheque is not a free thing that they receive every pay-cycle. they have to work for it and as such, a charge and/or ticket is in fact required of the muslim while this is not true of the christian.

 

[MustafaMc]

Brother Woodrow, how many times do you suppose that the phrase bismi Allahi ir-Rahmani ir-Raheem (in the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful) is said around the world in a single day? Christians claim that an atonement must be paid for one's sin and they seem to deny the ability of Allah (swt) to forgive sin with a figurative sweep of the hand. Just as there is absolutely nothing that we can do to benefit Allah (swt) so also there is nothing that we can do to injure Him. We are promised forgiveness over and over again in the Quran and we put our trust in His Mercy; whereas, Christians put their trust in the blood of Jesus for their salvation.

 

[Woodrow]

perhaps a proper thread on the matter of forgiveness in islam and christianity should be created. that said, forgiveness comes to us freely because we do not deserve it and it is not us who pay the price. god pays it himself and as such we receive a free gift. i don't think that we can question whether forgiveness is free or not given that it is god himself who pays the price for us but i wouldn't mind hearing of any counter-arguments. i believe that in your post you imply that when christians say that they receive the free gift of salvation they mean that nothing in particular enabled them to stand justified before god and that is not what christians say. the aspect of forgiveness which is free is that the christian does not pay the price but rather god himself and as such your critique stands unjustified. i feel like i should give an example:

imagine receiving a brand new tv as a gift. the tv would in fact be free but that doesn't mean that the one who gave you this gift did not have to pay for the tv. this example illustrates quite well how on the matter of whether the christian salvation is a free gift, christianity is above reproach.


( a ) i would actually beg to differ. from how islamic forgiveness works, it is far from likely that the muslim deity is actually infinite in the attributes of mercy and/or forgivess. instead he stuck in a precarious situation where one divine attribute always has to trump the other. this cannot make any sense if these attributes truly be infinite but i digress. depending on your response i will certainly elaborate on this matter because i find it certainly fascinating how when one truly thinks of how allah dispenses justice, certain serious problems do arise.

( b ) i would once more have to disagree with you woodrow. it is my understanding that even in islam heaven is predicated on a certain number of things. in islam one has to work for their heaven through a series of obligatory and voluntary acts while in christianity heaven is the free gift. this illustrates two very important concepts. in islam, one has to work for the reward and therefore it is a fear of hell and a desire to escape this realm and enter paradise which drives the muslim to do good while in christianity it is the desire to live in accordance to the nature of god that drives one to do good. the christian does not do good deeds in order to enter heaven, heaven is already given to him. instead he does good deeds to please his father. these two concepts are not unlike the servant and the son. the servant has to continue doing good in order to continually win the favour of the master and does so primarily for personal benefit (not to enter hell), the son however does not have to win the love of the father and does good simply because he loves the father and not for any reward. what reward can he have when everything is already given to him at the start? so all i mean to say is that the concepts of slavery and sonship are crucial to understanding christianity and islam and i would continue as to what ramifications these two concepts have on the matter of love, obediance etc. but i feel that i'm getting severely off-topic. anyway, i will be awaiting your response.


i would argue that in islam one simply finds a different kind of "free" forgiveness. if forgiveness is to culminate in the granting of paradise for the muslim then at the very least, heaven to the muslim is not free in the same way that one's paycheque is not a free thing that they receive every pay-cycle. they have to work for it and as such, a charge and/or ticket is in fact required of the muslim while this is not true of the christian.

Peace Sol,

This is a very common misconception I often find among non-Muslims. We do place very high emphasis on charity and good deeds and worship. But not one of them or even all together can ever earn us as much as a peek into heaven. None of our good works will ever get us into heaven. It is only the mercy of Allaah(swt) that can do so. Forgiveness can only come from Allaah(swt) and all that is required is for us to sincerely repent of our sins. Yes we do believe Allaah(swt) will reward our good works, many times more than their value. but if we do not repent, that reward just may be here on earth. The good works have no way to buy us into heaven.

It is possible for a person who dedicates his entire life to good works to find himself in hellfire, simply because in spite of all his works, he never repented of his sins.

 

[Sol Invictus]

We are promised forgiveness over and over again in the Quran and we put our trust in His Mercy; whereas, Christians put their trust in the blood of Jesus for their salvation.

now mustafa, if you had at all studied christianity (i do not remember if you have said before that you used to be a christian or not. i might have you confused with another member) you would know that your sentence does not make sense. the christian trusts in god and so he places his faith on the testimony that the father himself has given concerning the son. if one does not believe in the son then they call god a liar because god himself vindicated the truth of his son and so there is no trusting of the father outside of his son. this is not unlike saying that muslims do not trust the muslim deity because they also place their faith in the sunnah of the islamic prophet. yet the islamic deity himself testifies to the truth of the sunnah of muhammad and so there is no trusting of allah while rejecting the sunnah of muhammad. as such, the same logic applies. please at the very least consider if what you say isn't equally detrimental to your position before posting it as a sustained attack on the tenets of christianity.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Peace Sol,

This is a very common misconception I often find among non-Muslims. We do place very high emphasis on charity and good deeds and worship. But not one of them or even all together can ever earn us as much as a peek into heaven. None of our good works will ever get us into heaven. It is only the mercy of Allaah(swt) that can do so. Forgiveness can only come from Allaah(swt) and all that is required is for us to sincerely repent of our sins. Yes we do believe Allaah(swt) will reward our good works, many times more than their value. but if we do not repent, that reward just may be here on earth. The good works have no way to buy us into heaven.

It is possible for a person who dedicates his entire life to good works to find himself in hellfire, simply because in spite of all his works, he never repented of his sins.

greetings woodrow,

i can see how my point could be seen in such a fashion but i do understand that good works do not automatically give one access to heaven according to islam and in this respect both muslims and christians are in agreement. i was pointing to the fact however that according to islam (and correct me if i am mistaken) one's good deeds must outweigh one's bad deeds in order to enter heaven. as such, the total amount of voluntary and obligatory acts (and whatever else could constitute as good deeds) must outweigh one's bad ones in order to merit heaven. in light of this, i would hold that my point is correct but i will await your response seeing as you are the practising muslim and i am not. should i be incorrect on this matter then i would very much appreciate your correction seeing as it would prove to be a blessing and help me to have a more thorough understanding of islam.

 

[Woodrow]

Brother Woodrow, how many times do you suppose that the phrase bismi Allahi ir-Rahmani ir-Raheem (in the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful) is said around the world in a single day? Christians claim that an atonement must be paid for one's sin and they seem to deny the ability of Allah (swt) to forgive sin with a figurative sweep of the hand. Just as there is absolutely nothing that we can do to benefit Allah (swt) so also there is nothing that we can do to injure Him. We are promised forgiveness over and over again in the Quran and we put our trust in His Mercy; whereas, Christians put their trust in the blood of Jesus for their salvation.

Brother Mustafa, even the least practicing Muslim will have bismi Allahi ir-Rahmani ir-Raheem on his lips many times in a day and much more often in his thoughts. I do not think it is possible for any of us to contemplate or do anything without our desire to do it in the Name of Allaah(swt). The thought of not saying the Bismiilah is as alien as trying to go without breathing. All we do is for Allaah(swt) and all our thoughts, words and deeds are a prayer.

 

[Woodrow]

greetings woodrow,

i can see how my point could be seen in such a fashion but i do understand that good works do not automatically give one access to heaven according to islam and in this respect both muslims and christians are in agreement. i was pointing to the fact however that according to islam (and correct me if i am mistaken) one's good deeds must outweigh one's bad deeds in order to enter heaven. as such, the total amount of voluntary and obligatory acts (and whatever else could constitute as good deeds) must outweigh one's bad ones in order to merit heaven. in light of this, i would hold that my point is correct but i will await your response seeing as you are the practising muslim and i am not. should i be incorrect on this matter then i would very much appreciate your correction seeing as it would prove to be a blessing and help me to have a more thorough understanding of islam.

A Muslim can spend his entire life in debauchery and never do as much as one good deed and still enter into Heaven if he is truly repentant in his last breath.

If we could get into heaven by having our good deeds out weigh our bad deeds there would be no need for anybody to be Muslim. There are many very good and kind non-Muslims who do many good deeds. But that is not going to get anybody into heaven.

 

[Sol Invictus]

( a ) A Muslim can spend his entire life in debauchery and never do as much as one good deed and still enter into Heaven if he is truly repentant in his last breath.

( b ) If we could get into heaven by having our good deeds out weigh our bad deeds there would be no need for anybody to be Muslim. There are many very good and kind non-Muslims who do many good deeds. But that is not going to get anybody into heaven.

( a ) if allah does indeed forgive all of one's bad deeds and the act of coming to repentance is indeed a good deed then i would argue that it is impossible for one to enter heaven without one's good deeds outweighing one's bad ones. even in your example, once the bad deeds are forgiven, they are no longer taken into account and so the good deed of repentance would actually outweigh all other bad deeds because there would be none. woodrow, i do not want to beat a dead horse and am merely clarifying my position but i do not see how what you have said actually contradicts anything i have said so far. once more i await to see if what i have said is incorrect.

(on a side note, this then brings into question the oft-repeated claim by muslims that christianity allows anyone both murderers and rapists into heaven if they simply ask for forgiveness. i know that neither you nor anyone else within this thread has said so and in this respect my discussion on this is rather off-topic but in light of what you have said, it would seem that islam and christianity largely operate in the same manner in this respect but i digress. this in itself is a topic for a different thread.)

edit: i should also then ask if this then doesn't lead to automatic salvation for the muslim. christians are often castigated for believing that they are saved from the moment that they truly place faith in the blood of christ. it is my understanding that no muslim can be certain of their salvation. is this incorrect and are you in particular certain that you will be in heaven woodrow? if so, is this the general muslim position?

( b ) true, which is why my argument presupposes that one is a muslim.

 

[Woodrow]

( a ) if allah does indeed forgive all of one's bad deeds and the act of coming to repentance is indeed a good deed then i would argue that it is impossible for one to enter heaven without one's good deeds outweighing one's bad ones. even in your example, once the bad deeds are forgiven, they are no longer taken into account and so the good deed of repentance would actually outweigh all other bad deeds because there would be none. woodrow, i do not want to beat a dead horse and am merely clarifying my position but i do not see how what you have said actually contradicts anything i have said so far. once more i await to see if what i have said is incorrect.

That does not differ from what many Christians also believe. Most Christians believe that a person can repent on his death bed and still go to heaven in spite of a lifetime of sin. So I guess they believe that final good deed outweighs all of their bad deeds they would have at that moment

(on a side note, this then brings into question the oft-repeated claim by muslims that christianity allows anyone both murderers and rapists into heaven if they simply ask for forgiveness. i know that neither you nor anyone else within this thread has said so and in this respect my discussion on this is rather off-topic but in light of what you have said, it would seem that islam and christianity largely operate in the same manner in this respect but i digress. this in itself is a topic for a different thread.)

I agree

edit: i should also then ask if this then doesn't lead to automatic salvation for the muslim. christians are often castigated for believing that they are saved from the moment that they truly place faith in the blood of christ. it is my understanding that no muslim can be certain of their salvation. is this incorrect and are you in particular certain that you will be in heaven woodrow? if so, is this the general muslim position?

I have no idea who will go to heaven. We humans have free will and just as each of us can gain heaven on our death bed, we each have the ability to decline or refuse heaven on our death bed. I would like to say I am currently on the path to heaven, but I am human and like all humans can be subject to my own wants and desires or succumb to temptation and wander off the path to heaven before I die. That is in agreement with all of the Muslims I personally know. But I can not say it is the general Muslim posistion as we are all individuals.

 

[Sol Invictus]

That does not differ from what many Christians also believe. Most Christians believe that a person can repent on his death bed and still go to heaven in spite of a lifetime of sin. So I guess they believe that final good deed outweighs all of their bad deeds they would have at that moment.

i believe in the above as well (though then to the christian this leads to the question whether faith itself is a work but that is neither here nor there) and didn't primarily write the above in order to contrast islam from christianity. it should however be coupled with the fact that no individual has failed to do even a single good deed and so if all other bad deeds are forgiven they would still have the good deed of their faith + the other good deeds which they have done and so in this regard the balance of the good deeds versus bad deeds would lean in favour of the good deeds. this then is in contrast to christianity which posits that one's good deeds are not enough to merit heaven.

i should however note that i believe my position to be wrong about islam because from my reading there does seem to be a very real balancing of good deeds versus bad deeds which wouldn't really be possible if the muslim deity had forgiven all bad deeds anyway. unless of course one maintains that it is only those sins which we have not asked for forgiveness which will be brought against us yet this ignores certain prayers such as "forgive all my sins" etc. furthermore, how much do we really know of our intentions? even our best intentions are always marred by some sense of selfishness, pride etc. even the very process of asking for forgiveness should be questioned with as to why one does so. is it because they truly love allah or because they want to be saved from hell? is it because they await the pleasures of the islamic heaven or because they wish to follow what is right? and how would one truly know that they are doing these for the right reasons? can we perfectly understand our hidden desires? far more often it is a mixture of both and as such with every act of repentance one commits it is all the more probable that he incurs another act of sin. man is not perfectly good. he does good imperfectly, he loves imperfectly, he forgives imperfectly and even our repentance is imperfect. imperfect repentance by its very nature carries an aspect of sin and seeing as we are never completely sure of our motives it is very probable that every time we repent of one sin, we also incur another. there is no way to know for sure our reasons for repentance and as such no way to really know where we lie on the scale of good vs. bad. i know that i'm dragging this topic out but i think that when one crafts a system where morality and goodness become a game of numbers (by this i mean when they become quantifiable)--so to speak--they run into problems such as this (simply look at utilitarianism for an example). all this to say, i do not believe that any muslim on this board can actually say that they are sure that all their sins are forgiven or that they have done more good deeds than bad deeds. this would at the very least require perfect knowledge of their very own intentions and no one can at all claim to this. furthermore, i should go ahead and mention that i do not believe that christianity suffers from the same problem (surprise, surprise) and i am more than willing to elaborate on the matter if you choose to call this belief of mine into question.