Some people tend to understand things in "either this or that" mode of thinking. Islam is not "either this or that"----it is a wholistic way of understanding. --its concepts are based on balance and harmony. Therefore neither "works" nor "belief" stand on their own, but work in harmony to create balance----right belief that inspires right intentons that lead to right actions. All 3 elements are important. Religion is for the benefit of mankind----not for the benefit of God who has no needs. This benefit is realized when all 3 elements (belief, intentions, actions) work together in harmony and balance.
for christians : a question about salvation.
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Sol Invictus
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thank you for the response but the claim that neither works nor belief stand on their own is contradictory to woodrow's claim that:
that said, if my understanding of repentance being a good deed in itself is correct and the ramifications of this (though i tend to think that this is incorrect but you'll have to read the post prior to this one in order to understand why) then these can in fact be harmonized (to a limited degree). yet as is, your claim is that belief is not enough in order for one to be saved while at least woodrow's initial comments were that belief was in fact enough to be saved. the question then is, what does salvation depend on, belief or works? can the muslim who died before being able to repent of the majority of his sins be saved or must the repentance have been present for him to find salvation? from this understanding would follow the fact that faith is not enough to be saved.
also, as i recall it, muslims believe that the ummah will be split into 73 sects and that individuals belonging to only one of these will be saved. it should be assumed that not all of these sects will practise evil deeds etc. (for even atheists know how to be moral) and so we can readily assume that some of these sects will practise moral actions and yet at least all of these but one will go to hell because of not having the right faith. from this understanding it would seem that works are not then enough.
so is faith able to save on its own or must good deeds be accompanied with faith according to the muslim? whatever the answer please do remember the case of the muslim who would die without being able to repent of his bad deeds.
In Islam, someone else cannot take on the sins of another or repent for the sins of someone else---each individual is responsible for his own spiritual journey/path and this path is intimate and private between the individual and God. God is Compassionate and Merciful and does not require perfection---because spiritual growth requires learning from trials, errors, mistakes as well as being tested by our blessings. Both Good fortune and Bad fortune are a trial/test.
"Muslim can spend his entire life in debauchery and never do as much as one good deed and still enter into Heaven if he is truly repentant in his last breath."
---I havn't read all of Woodrows comments---but I agree with what he said here. humility/repentence is an important concept in Islam---God is most Compassionate and most merciful and can see what is in our hearts.....
---I havn't read all of Woodrows comments---but I agree with what he said here. humility/repentence is an important concept in Islam---God is most Compassionate and most merciful and can see what is in our hearts.....
Sol Invictus
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i can only assume that your postw as directed towards me siam and so here is my response:
now, i foresee that you might claim that this is perfectly alright seeing as those children would go to heaven but the salvation of those children is not what is in question here. why did allah also punish those sinless children if the flood was because of polytheism and an individual cannot take on the sin of another (and therefore not be punished for their sin)? not to be disrespectful but this is the incoherence of islam. if you would like you are free to start a thread on the subject of islam and christianity as they relate to forgiveness and sin and i would be more than happy to discuss the matter with you seeing as this fascinates me.
( a ) i'd have to disagree my friend. in islam and in life people regularly take the punishments of others. look at the story of noah. muslims and christians believe that god ordered a flood which consumed the whole world. now we can be more than sure that little babies and children died in this flood too and in islam the flood is specifically brought on humanity in order to punish polytheism yet little babies whom one can only assume weren't polytheists died as well. why is this? now in christinity the matter can easily be reconciled when one remembers that everyone is born a sinner and there is no one who is just and as such the punishment of sinners is perfectly in keeping with god's righteousness. in islam however, the baies at the very least are sinless and to have them drown along with the polytheists because of the sin of the polytheists is unjust. there are many examples that one can bring that show the exact same pattern of allah regularly punishing the just because of the sins of the sinners and as such you will have to explain to us how you can maintain that an individual does not take on the sins of another when the islamic deity regularly punishes individuals for the sins of others.
now, i foresee that you might claim that this is perfectly alright seeing as those children would go to heaven but the salvation of those children is not what is in question here. why did allah also punish those sinless children if the flood was because of polytheism and an individual cannot take on the sin of another (and therefore not be punished for their sin)? not to be disrespectful but this is the incoherence of islam. if you would like you are free to start a thread on the subject of islam and christianity as they relate to forgiveness and sin and i would be more than happy to discuss the matter with you seeing as this fascinates me.
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I would say, repentence would be an intention---to have the humility to admit that one's life choices may have been wrong/harmful and this can lead to right belief and thus to right actions. There is a verse in the Quran about the Pharoah repenting as he was drowining(I think)---however, his repentence was not accepted. Again, one has to remember the wholistic nature of Islam. God is most compassionate, most merciful, and he is also Just. He knows what is in our hearts. Sincere repentence and humility merits his compassion and mercy.
Sol Invictus
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siam, i do not know what you are responding to. i am assuming that you're replying to me but without quoting the appropriate section i do not at all know what particular point your reply is aimed at.
@ Sol
---I have to disagree---God does not punish the innocent......( I want to look up the verse that explains this concept.....but need some time)
The story of Prophet Noah (pbuh) in the Quran is about God punishing ONLY those who deserved it---and those who did NOT deserve it were not punished----However, these stories (this and others like it) are not about "punishments" ---they are about cleansing. As the Quran explains, there are times that world is so overgrown with inequity and injustice that the good suffer and cry out to God. He is most compassionate and merciful and sends Guidance so that those in error can come to right. Only when this guidance is rejected in favor of inequity, injustice, oppression, does God intervene so that the good/goodness may have a chance to grow. It is man that must make the choice between good and evil---the gift of free-will comes with that responsibility..........
---I have to disagree---God does not punish the innocent......( I want to look up the verse that explains this concept.....but need some time)
The story of Prophet Noah (pbuh) in the Quran is about God punishing ONLY those who deserved it---and those who did NOT deserve it were not punished----However, these stories (this and others like it) are not about "punishments" ---they are about cleansing. As the Quran explains, there are times that world is so overgrown with inequity and injustice that the good suffer and cry out to God. He is most compassionate and merciful and sends Guidance so that those in error can come to right. Only when this guidance is rejected in favor of inequity, injustice, oppression, does God intervene so that the good/goodness may have a chance to grow. It is man that must make the choice between good and evil---the gift of free-will comes with that responsibility..........
I am not a Bible scholar, but I have read most of the NT. I have also read "Lost Christianities" by Bart Ehrman where he writes about the chaos of conflicting beliefs in the 1st century among the Marcionite, Ebionite, Gnostic and the Proto-Orthodox groups. The differences between these competing theologies were by no means minor. You trust that the Proto-Orthodox view that became victorious was in fact the true religion that was taught by Jesus and his disciples and by default accept the their books of the NT as being accurate representations of the Word of God. Also by default you lump all together any alternative view of Christianity and their books such as the Gospel of Thomas discovered at Nag Hamadi as being heretical.
My understanding of Christianity is that you trust that Jesus was at the same time the only begotten Son of God (whatever that means) and literally God in human flesh, that he lived a perfect life, and that he died on the cross as the only possible redeeming sacrifice for mankind to be forgiven of Adam's original sin as well as his own personal sins.
Quoting from http://bible.org/article/gods-plan-salvation "Because of what Jesus Christ accomplished for us on the cross, the Bible states “He that has the Son has life.” We can receive the Son, Jesus Christ, as our Savior by personal faith, by trusting in the person of Christ and His death for our sins." and "This means we must each come to God the same way: (1) as a sinner who recognizes his sinfulness, (2) realizes no human works can result in salvation, and (3) relies totally on Christ alone by faith alone for our salvation." Quoting from http://www.sbc.net/knowjesus/theplan.asp "Jesus paid the price for your sin and mine by giving His life on a cross at a place called Calvary, just outside of the city walls of Jerusalem in ancient Israel. God brought Jesus back from the dead. He provided the way for you to have a personal relationship with Him through Jesus. When we realize how deeply our sin grieves the heart of God and how desperately we need a Savior, we are ready to receive God's offer of salvation."
From these quotes I understand that the Christian plan of salvation is to accept the free gift of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross as the only possible means of reconciliation with God. You are, of course, free to outline your own personal understanding of the Christian plan of salvation.
No, it is disbelieving that the NT is the Word of God. I do not unconditionally accept anything written in the Bible as being the Truth.
Yes, there is similarity in that I accept the Quran as the Word of Allah (swt) and I accept the sunnah of Muhammad (saaws) as being accurate in conveying Muhammad's (saaws) example for how we are to live our lives. I accept the Quran 3:31 "Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If you love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
How is what I have written "detrimental to my position"?
You are exactly correct and only 1 surah does not have those very words at the beginning. The Gracious Quran translates these attributes of Allah (swt) as The All Merciful, The Mercy Giving. We live our lives according to the sunnah of Muhammad (saaws), but we all trust in Allah (swt) to have mercy on us and to forgive us of our sins. We strive for perfection in our deen, but none of us claim to have reached a state of perfection where we don't have to pray, fast, give charity, or make pilgrimage. We obey Allah (swt) and we put our trust in the promise He has made so many times in the Quran such as 5:9 "Allah hath promised those who believe and do good works: Theirs will be forgiveness and immense reward."
Yes, there is a balancing of deeds on the Day of Judgment, but our sense of balance and 'fairness' does not apply. The testimony of "there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the Servant and Messenger of Allah" will be the heaviest deed on the scale.
I fully agree hence our inability to judge even our own hearts and to know if Allah (swt) will have mercy on us or punish us. The intention determines the merit or demerit of every deed. We have a balance between hope in the Mercy and fear of the Wrath of Allah (swt) as we live our lives and those 2 things do flavor the good we do and the bad we abstain from.
Sol Invictus
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with all due respect siam, you prove nothing with your post. are you seriously going to tell me that no babies died along with all the polytheists in the flood? if babies did in fact drown in the flood then my argument does stand and we then have a deity who has, and in fact recurringly punishes individuals for the sins of others. if one is punished for the sins of another then it follows that they have taken on the sins of the other. i will note that it is telling that you have not tried to disprove this point but merely to claim ignorance on the matter.
i don't know if you wrote this to contradict what i had said but if you have, then in what way have you disproved what i have said?
once again i do not see how what you have said actually goes against anything i have said in my post so far.
because you just agreed that the muslim position is to believe in the sunnah of the islamic prophet along with the words of allah because allah himself testified on the truth and goodness of the sunnah. to not believe in the sunnah of muhammad is in fact to call the muslim deity a liar seeing as he provides his own testimony as to the "usefulnnes" of the sunnah. in the same manner the christian position is to trust in the blood of jesus because the father himself gave his testimony on the "usefulness" of christ's sacrifice:
The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. --- 1 John 5:10-12 NIV
so your claim that christians trust in christ instead of wholly trusting in god is actually detrimental to your own position because you also trust in muhammad instead of wholly trusting in god yet when we realize that according to our respective scriptures, to trust in the messenger is the same as to trust in god then the problem is resolved and given that you were once a christian i would have hoped that you could call this into remembrance before making your post.
(it should however be noted that the above isn't perfectly true seeing as since christians believe that jesus is himself god then they only trust in god in the first place and muslims trust in god and a human but we need not go there with this discussion.)
i agree as well but given that we will never really know the truth about our intentions, this still does not save the muslim from the force of my argument.
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@Sol ---I may not have explained well---you did not understand what I was trying to say......
From your perspective death = punishment. I do not hold that perspective. Babies, children, young adults, and good people die all the time. It matters not if there is a flood or other natural disasters.......
God is neither wrathful, nor unjust, nor arbitrary.......He does not punish anyone for the sins of another. Each individual human is responsible for their actions/choices
From your perspective death = punishment. I do not hold that perspective. Babies, children, young adults, and good people die all the time. It matters not if there is a flood or other natural disasters.......
God is neither wrathful, nor unjust, nor arbitrary.......He does not punish anyone for the sins of another. Each individual human is responsible for their actions/choices
Sol Invictus
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no, from my perspective death does not necessarily entail punishment but rather in a case such as the story of the flood, this conclusion cannot be denied. read the story of noah in the qur'an. the muslim deity is quite clear in the fact that the flood was in order to punish the polytheists:
if you disagree with the above could you then find me a verse from the qur'an which says that the flood wasn't called in order to punish the polytheists? notice how the muslim deity even says that those who have sinned will be drowned? so the qur'an doesn't agree with your revisionism and it is a fact that the flood was due to the sins of the polytheists and in order to punish these sinners. the problem then becomes that allah also drowned a multitude of innocent children whom have never engaged in polytheism and who are wholly pure according to islam. this is clearly a case of individuals being punished for the sins of others (something that muslims decry as wrong) and in fact bearing the sins of others for how can one be punished for another person's sin without first having this sin be imputed on them?
the qur'an quite clearly presents us with a deity who claims that he does not engage in vicarious punishment yet his very own actions testify to the contrary. he has in the past, and in fact regularly punishes individuals for the sins of others. now we should remember that muslims are quick to say that it is wholly wrong for an individual to be punished for the sins of another (and with certain caveats the christian can certainly agree to this) and as such quite ironically, muslims themselves acknowledge that their deity is immoral. you will note that i have not said anything of my own but have merely repeated what the general muslim opinion is (as can be seen whenever the topic of the atonement creeps up) and if you are offended by this then it certainly cannot be my fault given that this is simply the logical outworking of what muslims themselves say. i will note that in your post you asserted your mere opinion while i have relied on what the muslim deity has said and done. there is no question as to whose post is in keeping with the character of the muslim deity.
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Sol---This is not in respose to your post----You are free to believe as you please.
I just find the question interesting because I also had the same question and looked to the Quran for an answer.---But the Quran has to be understood as a whole because themes are intertwined. (for reference read Surah 89 Al-Fajr)
1) death is not a punishment and life is not a reward.
Our life on earth is a time of test/trial. Both blessings and sufferring are a test/trial. The more blessings God bestows---the moe responsibility comes with it. therefore, a person who has been given more wealth than others, has more responsibility to share that wealth with the needy than a person who has not been given wealth.
Compared to the vast time scale of the universe, an individuals time on earth (from birth to death) is very very tiny. The amount of time (long or short) each individual will spend on earth is decided by God.
2) We will be held accountable only to the extent of our responsibilty.
An innocent baby will not be held accountable as it has not commited any sins. A young child who has not developed an adequate capacity of discernment cannot be held accountable for what is could not know. An adult with free-will and full intellectual capacity must be held accountable for his/her intentions and actions---because such an individual cannot use the excuse "I did not know". Our time on earth is a test/trial so that we can use our free-will to decide for ourselves if we choose to be rewarded or punished. This is the gift of free-will---to be empowered to choose our ultmite desitny---but with it comes the responsibility that we will be held accountable for all our choices and Judged. God is Just. His Justice is tempered with Compassion and Mercy.(Grace)
(Surah 2 verse 281--And fear the day when you shall be brought back to God.Then shall every soul be paid what it has earned and none shall be dealt with unjustly)
3) Hell is the punishment and Paradise is the reward.
Our life is a test/trail and our death is the termination of this period of test/trail. The length of an individual life, accumulates good deeds and bad deeds and we will be judged Justly. A longer life accumulates more, a shorter life accumulates less. Our blessings come with responsibility, but our sufferring is also balanced by extra blessings/rewards. Our destiny is the life after Judgement. If we have chosen to follow the Guidance given by God---we have chosen the path to Paradise. If we have Chosen to reject that Guidance for the sake of creating "mischief" in the world---we have chosen the path to hell. (However, God is most compassionate and merciful to those who turn to him in repentence)
What was the "punishment" of those who drowned at the time of Prophet Noah(pbuh)?
The people who chose to disregard the Guidance (to goodness)given by God to Prophet Noah(pbuh) made the decision of their own free-will. God is compassionate and merciful and he gave them a warning and an oppurtunity to come to goodness and be Guided---to abandon, oppression, injustice, immorality ...etc. Their death terminated their time on earth---and this means they were no longer given any more time to repent. This was the "punishment" They died in a state of unrepentant arrogance and pride.
(Surah 3 verse 102---O you who believe, Fear God as he should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam) note: Fear= Taqwa(love of God) and "state of Islam"=in a state of submission to God.
(see also Surah 3 verse 134-139--God forgives those who do wrong)
God's Compassion and Mercy.
Those who did heed the message of Prophet Noah(pbuh) of their own free-will, were ALL "saved" from drowning. They were people who choose goodness over evil and they were given a chance to continue with their period of time on earth. With this came the responsibility of nurturing and spreading the goodness and Guidance on earth so that it could build strong roots in society.
God is not arbitrary.
In our time on earth---God provides sustenance and blessings to those who are good as well as those who are "wrongdoers". This is because God is Compassionate and Merciful and gives everyone a chance to repent. Once our life is over, this chance is gone. Our time on earth (short or long) is for God to decide---not us---it is not the manner of death that is important but the life-choices we have made in our time on earth. Those who have had no opportunity to make any life-choices (such as babies) have no accountability/judgement. God simply takes them back to himself. All of us have been created with a purpose. The purpose of Human beings is to do God's will=which is, Right belief that inspires to right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all God's creations. We can choose to do so, or we can reject to do so.....But sometimes, the world is so overrun with evil, that good people have no chance to do God's will. So God intervenes. But he does so with justice. He sends Messengers/Warners and Guidance so people will come to goodness. Natural disasters happen all the time and many people suffer and /or die---but an act of intervention is not "Wrath" it is cleansing. God cleanses the particular place of those who persist in evil so that goodness can grow. Not all natural disasters are an "intervention". God only takes action when it is absolutely necessary and only after warners/messengers and Guidance has been given, and those who have chosen goodness are unharmed--not as a "reward" but as a responsibilty---so that they can nurture goodness and make it grow strong.
I just find the question interesting because I also had the same question and looked to the Quran for an answer.---But the Quran has to be understood as a whole because themes are intertwined. (for reference read Surah 89 Al-Fajr)
1) death is not a punishment and life is not a reward.
Our life on earth is a time of test/trial. Both blessings and sufferring are a test/trial. The more blessings God bestows---the moe responsibility comes with it. therefore, a person who has been given more wealth than others, has more responsibility to share that wealth with the needy than a person who has not been given wealth.
Compared to the vast time scale of the universe, an individuals time on earth (from birth to death) is very very tiny. The amount of time (long or short) each individual will spend on earth is decided by God.
2) We will be held accountable only to the extent of our responsibilty.
An innocent baby will not be held accountable as it has not commited any sins. A young child who has not developed an adequate capacity of discernment cannot be held accountable for what is could not know. An adult with free-will and full intellectual capacity must be held accountable for his/her intentions and actions---because such an individual cannot use the excuse "I did not know". Our time on earth is a test/trial so that we can use our free-will to decide for ourselves if we choose to be rewarded or punished. This is the gift of free-will---to be empowered to choose our ultmite desitny---but with it comes the responsibility that we will be held accountable for all our choices and Judged. God is Just. His Justice is tempered with Compassion and Mercy.(Grace)
(Surah 2 verse 281--And fear the day when you shall be brought back to God.Then shall every soul be paid what it has earned and none shall be dealt with unjustly)
3) Hell is the punishment and Paradise is the reward.
Our life is a test/trail and our death is the termination of this period of test/trail. The length of an individual life, accumulates good deeds and bad deeds and we will be judged Justly. A longer life accumulates more, a shorter life accumulates less. Our blessings come with responsibility, but our sufferring is also balanced by extra blessings/rewards. Our destiny is the life after Judgement. If we have chosen to follow the Guidance given by God---we have chosen the path to Paradise. If we have Chosen to reject that Guidance for the sake of creating "mischief" in the world---we have chosen the path to hell. (However, God is most compassionate and merciful to those who turn to him in repentence)
What was the "punishment" of those who drowned at the time of Prophet Noah(pbuh)?
The people who chose to disregard the Guidance (to goodness)given by God to Prophet Noah(pbuh) made the decision of their own free-will. God is compassionate and merciful and he gave them a warning and an oppurtunity to come to goodness and be Guided---to abandon, oppression, injustice, immorality ...etc. Their death terminated their time on earth---and this means they were no longer given any more time to repent. This was the "punishment" They died in a state of unrepentant arrogance and pride.
(Surah 3 verse 102---O you who believe, Fear God as he should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam) note: Fear= Taqwa(love of God) and "state of Islam"=in a state of submission to God.
(see also Surah 3 verse 134-139--God forgives those who do wrong)
God's Compassion and Mercy.
Those who did heed the message of Prophet Noah(pbuh) of their own free-will, were ALL "saved" from drowning. They were people who choose goodness over evil and they were given a chance to continue with their period of time on earth. With this came the responsibility of nurturing and spreading the goodness and Guidance on earth so that it could build strong roots in society.
God is not arbitrary.
In our time on earth---God provides sustenance and blessings to those who are good as well as those who are "wrongdoers". This is because God is Compassionate and Merciful and gives everyone a chance to repent. Once our life is over, this chance is gone. Our time on earth (short or long) is for God to decide---not us---it is not the manner of death that is important but the life-choices we have made in our time on earth. Those who have had no opportunity to make any life-choices (such as babies) have no accountability/judgement. God simply takes them back to himself. All of us have been created with a purpose. The purpose of Human beings is to do God's will=which is, Right belief that inspires to right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all God's creations. We can choose to do so, or we can reject to do so.....But sometimes, the world is so overrun with evil, that good people have no chance to do God's will. So God intervenes. But he does so with justice. He sends Messengers/Warners and Guidance so people will come to goodness. Natural disasters happen all the time and many people suffer and /or die---but an act of intervention is not "Wrath" it is cleansing. God cleanses the particular place of those who persist in evil so that goodness can grow. Not all natural disasters are an "intervention". God only takes action when it is absolutely necessary and only after warners/messengers and Guidance has been given, and those who have chosen goodness are unharmed--not as a "reward" but as a responsibilty---so that they can nurture goodness and make it grow strong.
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Excellent explanation.
I just want to add. the Qur'an also says that there are also believers and people who do good who die among natural disasters.
But in ahadeeths, Rasulullah SAW explained that deaths from natural disasters (drowning, etc) for the believers serve as expiation for their sins so they will have better accounts during yaumul qiyamah (day of the judgement).