Forgiveness vs Atonement

[MustafaMc]

Well, as I commented, that's Muslim belief and Muslim belief about Christianity. That's all.

I have not read anywhere what your beliefs are. You say that you are a Christian, but I have not read a single word you have written that is consistent with what I know about either Protestant or Catholic Christianity.

Personnaly one of the first sign I know about the truthfulness of someone, is how they 'get'/understand me. If someone says they are truthful while they are speaking/believing lies about me I know they are false. Simple. I know myself, and I know what I believe about God.

So if someone does not 'get' you then they are dishonest? I can't see how a lack of understanding can be shown to be equivalent with dishonesty.

You are speaking from books, and theological terms like atonment, etc. How if I never went to school or don't speak English? do you suppose only English speaking people are Christians or that Christianity is founded on any human alphabet of syllables and sounds? God and man are both beyond syllabes when it comes to communication and understanding.

No, I absolutely disagree with you here. This forum is written in English as a common language even though some people have learned English as a second language and may not understand the meaning of all words as well as others. However, there are online dictionaries available to look up words that are not well understood. There is no other means of communication of concepts and ideas like the subtle difference between 'atonement' and 'forgiveness'. Using your logic, "If you don't get what I am trying to say, then you are being dishonest." I can understand why you would want to be dishonest because to admit the truth in what I have written destroys the concept of Jesus needing to die on the cross as the only possible means for redemption from sin. Your dancing around and avoiding any and all questions put forward to you demonstrate without doubt that you are a dishonest person and that you do not want to have an honest two-way conversation.

I agree with what Akhi brmm wrote.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Flame;

Yes, isn't it funny? If the sacrifice that Jesus supposedly made on the cross was supposed to pay for all our sins, why why why do Christians still ask the Lord to forgive them in the Lord's prayer?!

When you take a few words out of context they probably wont make sense

Our Father, which art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done,
in earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive them that trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.

If we ask for forgiveness, then we also have to forgive those who sin against us, we will be judged in the way that we judge others. I have family and friends of many faiths, and no faith, I pray and hope that God can grant them eternal salvation, even if they never become a Christian.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

 

[MustafaMc]

...
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive them that trespass against us.
...

If we ask for forgiveness, then we also have to forgive those who sin against us, we will be judged in the way that we judge others.

Peace, Eric H. Your comments are consistent with Christian #2 in this post http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...6-forgiveness-vs-atonement-4.html#post1443183 I agree that it would be hypocritical to ask God for forgiveness of our sins and to refuse forgiveness to others who offend or injure us.

 

[al yunan]

If we ask for forgiveness, then we also have to forgive those who sin against us, we will be judged in the way that we judge others. I have family and friends of many faiths, and no faith, I pray and hope that God can grant them eternal salvation, even if they never become a Christian. In the spirit of praying for justice for all people Eric

Salam brother Eric,

You truly have a big heart.
I wish your condition was contagious and that you travelled.

Masalam

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc; thanks for your reply.

If there were no law, then people would not be guilty of sin, if I could just explain that a little further.

The only command that the prophet Adam was given, was not to eat from the tree of knowledge, there were no other laws between the time of Adam and Moses. When Cain killed Abel, he was not breaking any law, because there were no laws against killing until the time of Moses. Anyone who killed after Moses, was then made guilty of killing, because God had given the command not to kill.

Jesus came and still said that every letter of the law should still be fulfilled, but Jesus commanded us to do something greater than could be achieved through the law alone.


Matthew 22:35-39
35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’


If we could understand and live by these two commandments, we would not need any other instructions. These commandments ask us to go that extra mile and help others. I want to sit at home and watch tv, I am not harming anyone, I have not broken any law. But if any of my neighbours need some help I should really be out helping them, how can you write laws to make people love others.

I guess people were not very good at following the greatest commandments over time, and God reinforced the commandments of Judaism and the Old Testament, by giving mankind Islam.

Jesus said all the law, and the prophets hang and depend on the greatest commandments, I believe these commands are the most profound words written anywhere.

In the spirit of searching for God’s just laws.

Eric

 

[Ramadhan]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc; thanks for your reply. If there were no law, then people would not be guilty of sin, if I could just explain that a little further. The only command that the prophet Adam was given, was not to eat from the tree of knowledge, there were no other laws between the time of Adam and Moses. When Cain killed Abel, he was not breaking any law, because there were no laws against killing until the time of Moses. Anyone who killed after Moses, was then made guilty of killing, because God had given the command not to kill. Jesus came and still said that every letter of the law should still be fulfilled, but Jesus commanded us to do something greater than could be achieved through the law alone. Matthew 22:35-39 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ If we could understand and live by these two commandments, we would not need any other instructions. These commandments ask us to go that extra mile and help others. I want to sit at home and watch tv, I am not harming anyone, I have not broken any law. But if any of my neighbours need some help I should really be out helping them, how can you write laws to make people love others. I guess people were not very good at following the greatest commandments over time, and God reinforced the commandments of Judaism and the Old Testament, by giving mankind Islam. Jesus said all the law, and the prophets hang and depend on the greatest commandments, I believe these commands are the most profound words written anywhere. In the spirit of searching for God’s just laws. Eric

Salam Eric,

I think I understand what you wrote above about God's commandments, what I don't understand is, how it explains the forgiveness vs. atonement as the topic of this thread?

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Ramadhan;

Salam Eric,

I think I understand what you wrote above about God's commandments, what I don't understand is, how it explains the forgiveness vs. atonement as the topic of this thread?

All the law and the prophets hang and depend on the greatest commandments, and I wonder if the forgiveness of sins hangs and depends on the greatest commandments also.

In any situation our greatest response should be to love God and to love our neighbour as we love ourselves. If we respond in any other way then we are not living by what is greatest. For Example, if I punched you on the nose, your greatest response to me would be to love me as you love yourself, but first you would need to forgive me so that you might continue to love me as yourself.

If you were a Christian, and you punched me back, then you would not be responding in a greatest way, that is our challenge as a Christian, mostly we fail.

Then we look to Jesus in the Bible, and on the cross he said forgive them Father for they know not what they do. Jesus forgave the people who condemned him unjustly, he forgave those who scourged him and nailed him to the cross.

Did Jesus forgive in order that he should continue to do what is greatest, to love all our neighbours as we love ourselves, even to forgive those who harmed him?

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

 

[MustafaMc]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc; thanks for your reply.

If there were no law, then people would not be guilty of sin, if I could just explain that a little further.

The only command that the prophet Adam was given, was not to eat from the tree of knowledge, there were no other laws between the time of Adam and Moses. When Cain killed Abel, he was not breaking any law, because there were no laws against killing until the time of Moses. Anyone who killed after Moses, was then made guilty of killing, because God had given the command not to kill.

Peace, Eric, it is nice to hear from you. I am not sure that I agree with the idea there is no sin without law. God said to Cain in Genesis 4:7 "... And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door..." Apart from the law we humans have an innate sense of right and wrong and when we chose to do wrong, we commit sin.

Jesus came and still said that every letter of the law should still be fulfilled, but Jesus commanded us to do something greater than could be achieved through the law alone.


Matthew 22:35-39
35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’


If we could understand and live by these two commandments, we would not need any other instructions. These commandments ask us to go that extra mile and help others. I want to sit at home and watch tv, I am not harming anyone, I have not broken any law. But if any of my neighbours need some help I should really be out helping them, how can you write laws to make people love others.

I agree that these are indeed great commandments - in general terms. The devil-is-in-the-details though in how one goes about doing so. The Quran tells us how to love Allah (swt) in 3:31 Say: "If you love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." According to Islam, our following of Prophet Muhammad (saaws) in how we live our lives is a demonstration of our love for Allah (swt).

I guess people were not very good at following the greatest commandments over time, and God reinforced the commandments of Judaism and the Old Testament, by giving mankind Islam.

There may be something true within that in that generally normal people don't know how to love the Divine Being with all their soul and mind and rare indeed is the person who loves another human as he loves himself. Islam provides a set of guidelines in how to worship our Creator and to live our lives.

Jesus said all the law, and the prophets hang and depend on the greatest commandments, I believe these commands are the most profound words written anywhere.

In the spirit of searching for God’s just laws.

Eric

I agree that those are great commandments, but I also agree with my Brother in Islam in not seeing how this pertains to obtaining redemption for our commission of sin as imperfect human beings do. Can God forgive those transgressions with only repentance or is an atonement required to cancel the debt of sin only through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross?

 

[Ramadhan]

Eric, I understand the concept of forgiveness, however I still don't understand how your explanation relates to the blood atonement of God and for God?

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc;

]Peace, Eric, it is nice to hear from you. I am not sure that I agree with the idea there is no sin without law. God said to Cain in Genesis 4:7 "... And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door..." Apart from the law we humans have an innate sense of right and wrong and when we chose to do wrong, we commit sin.

When Adam ate from the tree, everyone from then on was given the knowledge of good and evil, another word for evil is sin. Mankind was given choices, God left mankind to work out for themselves what they should and should not do with this knowledge. God had not said you must do all these good things, and you must never do all these bad things. When Cain killed his brother he sinned, but there was no law to make him guilty.

After Moses, anyone who killed broke a law, and disobeyed God, the law makes them guilty.

It is within God’s power to say your sins are forgiven, and they would be forgiven, so why would Jesus have to die, it does not seem to be for the benefit of God, therefore it must be for my benefit in some way.

If Jesus only went through life doing good, and helping people, he should have every right to be angry against the people who condemned and tortured him, instead he forgave them. This is a profound role model for me, and Jesus gave us a new commandment shortly before he died. Love one another as I have loved you, by this all men will know that you are my disciples.

Scriptures are given to challenge and change us, I am not a scholar in any way, but I am just trying to say in my own words how the death and resurrection affects me.

In the spirit of praying for salvation for all people

Eric

 

[MustafaMc]

If Jesus only went through life doing good, and helping people, he should have every right to be angry against the people who condemned and tortured him, instead he forgave them. This is a profound role model for me, and Jesus gave us a new commandment shortly before he died. Love one another as I have loved you, by this all men will know that you are my disciples.

Eric, I do not disagree with you as I understand that you are basically saying, "Oh, God forgive me of my sins as I also forgive those who unjustly injure and offend me." I agree that it does not seem just to plead for forgiveness and then turn around and to refuse to forgive those around us. I disagree though that apart from the law there is no sin because that implies Christians who have no law are incapable of sinning. What I hear from you is 'forgiveness of sin' but not the 'atonement through the blood of Jesus' that is typical from Christians I know.

My perspective is that human beings are imperfect creatures who have an incliniation for self-preservation and each person doing what is best for himself. It takes a higher level of spiritual awareness and love to give your neighbor your meager piece of bread while you yourself are incredibly hungry. What comes to my mind is the book, "Man's Search for Meaning" by Victor Frankl. Forgiving our fellow man is a great concept, but we must admit it is extremely difficult to forgive the man who raped and killed your 16 year old daughter, the prison guard who beat you and applied live electrical wires to your private parts, or the wife who committed adultery with your best friend. With that said, I believe that God can forgive all of those things, but justice allows for retribution to be taken from the one injured on Judgement Day - again and Allah (swt) knows best.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Eric, this is the paradox of Jesus that I see.

On the one hand, he says to love your neighbour, be good to others, turn the other cheek (which as you noted, he backs up with his actions), etc. He presents himself at the sermon on the mount and elsewhere as an admirable role model that we can all learn something from, Chrsitian or not.

On the other hand, he represents vicarious redemption (scapegoatism). He embodies the idea that we all will go to hell and need to be "saved", and the idea that somebody else's suffering can pay for our own wrongdoing. He also reiterates that the Old Testament God (a monster) is to be followed.

If Christianity consisted of nothing but the sermon on the mount and some of Jesus' other teachings, I'd truly find it an admirable religion and may even convert. But with that comes the ugly stuff, so I stay far far away.

PS - Why do Christians so rarely mention the sermon on the mount but so often mention the 10 commandments? I could never understand that.

 

[brmm]

God had not said you must do all these good things, and you must never do all these bad things. When Cain killed his brother he sinned, but there was no law to make him guilty.

After Moses, anyone who killed broke a law, and disobeyed God, the law makes them guilty.

Eric

Hello Eric,
I am sorry to tell you that < I strongly disagree 100%>.
This is a very dangerous and horrible thing to say.
Please submit with proofs, because it should be God who said so.

If you mean by the law the Torah or the Law of God, in any case, the law of God is exist as long as God sexists. God can not be unfair before Moses and fair after Moses. This idea contradicts the attribute of God, so it is not even a discussable.

Moses was not the first prophet from God.
The Torah was not the first book book from God.
God have punished nations before Moses because of their sins when they did not listen to their prophets.

If we need to go by your idea, that would make our world very bad, because the man would be able to enjoy his mother, or kill his father and eat his children for lunch. We would be worse than the worse animals.

Do you think God wanted us to be like this ?

BRMM

 

[Who Am I?]

Jesus (pbuh) was a hippie communist.

Hippie = love everyone

Communist = give everything to the poor

So does that mean we should all be hippies and Communists too?

 

[brmm]

Hi Pygoscelis, pls can I ask u a question?
R u atheist
1. because you believe that there is no God, or,
2. because you want to be so but you know that there is God, or,
3. because you know that there is God but so far you do not like Him, or,
4. because you are searching for your God for now, or,
5. any other reason ?

BRMM

 

[Ramadhan]

Jesus (pbuh) was a hippie communist. Hippie = love everyone Communist = give everything to the poor So does that mean we should all be hippies and Communists too?

Jesus certainly did not love everyone. Remember how he kicked the tables of the traders in the temple?
That, and among other incidents show that Jesus did not love everyone.

Also, as muslims we give so much respect to Jesus (pbuh), one of Allah's mightiest messegers. We don't give him nicknames, let alone "hippie communist" astaghfirullah.
Only non-muslims would debase prophets of God.

 

[Who Am I?]

Jesus certainly did not love everyone. Remember how he kicked the tables of the traders in the temple?
That, and among other incidents show that Jesus did not love everyone.

Also, as muslims we give so much respect to Jesus (pbuh), one of Allah's mightiest messegers. We don't give him nicknames, let alone "hippie communist" astaghfirullah.
Only non-muslims would debase prophets of God.

Ah, I forgot about the kicking of tables part.

That was the old me talking. May Allah forgive me for my harsh words. I still have a lot to learn, inshallah.

 

[Ramadhan]

PS - Why do Christians so rarely mention the sermon on the mount but so often mention the 10 commandments? I could never understand that.

I don't know about the sermon but I'll answer the commandments part. Jesus (pbuh) followed the message of Moses (pbuh) and he never abrogated Mosaic laws and in fact, on record, he said that he didn't come to abolish the mosaic laws. And in many occasion, he kept commanding his followers NOT to break any of the commandments given to Moses (pbuh). So the commandments (which actually amount to a lot more than ten) are paramount.

 

[brmm]

Jesus (pbuh) was a hippie communist.

Hippie = love everyone

Communist = give everything to the poor

So does that mean we should all be hippies and Communists too?

“34*Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35*For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36*And a man's enemies shall be they of his own household” Matt 10:34-36

“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me” Luke 19:27

 

[Who Am I?]

“34*Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35*For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36*And a man's enemies shall be they of his own household” Matt 10:34-36

“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me” Luke 19:27

I was hasty in those words, I admit. That was the old me talking. I should know better than that now. :embarrass