France rejects veiled Muslim wife

[Uthman]

A French court has denied citizenship to a Muslim woman from Morocco, ruling that her practice of "radical" Islam is not compatible with French values.

Faiza M was described to be living "virtually as a recluse"

The 32-year-old woman, known as Faiza M, has lived in France since 2000 with her husband - a French national - and their three French-born children.

Social services reports said the burqa-wearing Faiza M lived in "total submission to her male relatives".

Faiza M said she has never challenged the fundamental values of France.

Her initial application for French citizenship was rejected in 2005 on the grounds of "insufficient assimilation" into France.

She appealed, and late last month the Conseil d'Etat, France's highest administrative body which also acts as a high court, upheld the decision to deny her citizenship.

Source

 

[KAding]

A difficult case. On the one hand I'm not against countries setting certain standards for citizenship. In fact, I think these standards on citizenship/immigration are virtually the only legitimate instruments the state has to act against fundamentalism. You can't stop your citizens from following radical ideas, at least not without illiberal measures, but you can prevent radicals from abroad from settling in your country. On the other hand, in this case she clearly has links in France, having a French husband and children.

 

[Brother_Mujahid]

well look on the bright side she still can pray and practice her Islam.

 

[Uthman]

France rejects Muslim woman over radical practice of Islam

· Expert says Moroccan lives 'almost as a recluse'
· Case reopens debate about freedom of religion

A woman wearing a burqa. France has denied citizenship to a Moroccan woman who wears a burqa on the grounds of 'insufficient assimilation'. Photograph: John Moore/Getty Images

France has denied citizenship to a Moroccan woman who wears a burqa on the grounds that her "radical" practice of Islam is incompatible with basic French values such as equality of the sexes.

The case yesterday reopened the debate about Islam in France, and how the secular republic reconciles itself with the freedom of religion guaranteed by the French constitution.

The woman, known as Faiza M, is 32, married to a French national and lives east of Paris. She has lived in France since 2000, speaks good French and has three children born in France. Social services reports said she lived in "total submission" to her husband. Her application for French nationality was rejected in 2005 on the grounds of "insufficient assimilation" into France. She appealed, invoking the French constitutional right to religious freedom and saying that she had never sought to challenge the fundamental values of France. But last month the Council of State, France's highest administrative body, upheld the ruling.

"She has adopted a radical practice of her religion, incompatible with essential values of the French community, particularly the principle of equality of the sexes," it said.

"Is the burqa incompatible with French citizenship?" asked Le Monde, which broke the story. The paper said it was the first time the level of a person's personal religious practice had been used to rule on their capacity be to assimilated into France.

The legal expert who reported to the Council of State said the woman's interviews with social services revealed that "she lives almost as a recluse, isolated from French society".

The report said: "She has no idea about the secular state or the right to vote. She lives in total submission to her male relatives. She seems to find this normal and the idea of challenging it has never crossed her mind."

The woman had said she was not veiled when she lived in Morocco and had worn the burqa since arriving in France at the request of her husband. She said she wore it more from habit than conviction.

Daniele Lochak, a law professor not involved in the case, said it was bizarre to consider that excessive submission to men was a reason not to grant citizenship. "If you follow that to its logical conclusion, it means that women whose partners beat them are also not worthy of being French," he told Le Monde.

Jean-Pierre Dubois, head of France's Human Rights League, said he was "vigilant" and was seeking more information.

France is home to nearly 5 million Muslims, roughly half of whom are French citizens. Criteria taken into account for granting French citizenship includes "assimilation", which normally focuses on how well the candidate speaks French. In the past nationality was denied to Muslims who were known to have links with extremists or who had publicly advocated radicalism, but that was not the case of Faiza M.

The ruling comes weeks after a controversy prompted by a court annulment of the marriage of two Muslims because the husband said the wife was not a virgin as she had claimed to be.

France's ban on headscarves and other religious symbols in state schools in 2004 sparked a heated debate over freedom and equality within the secular republic. The French government adheres to the theory that all French citizens are equal before the republic, and religion or ethnic background are matters for the private sphere. In practice, rights groups say, society is plagued by discrimination.

The president, Nicolas Sarkozy, has stressed the importance of "integration" into French life. Part of his heightened controls on immigrants is a new law to make foreigners who want to join their families sit an exam on French language and values before leaving their countries.

Source

 

[------]

they can go n knock themselves out

they cant stop us from practiscing our religion

so do 1!!

 

[Al-Zaara]

The French again.. This is just sad.

If an Muslim female who has the French citizenship, begins to wear the burqa afterwards, will then her citizenship be taken away? Who knows, one day they might go that far. (or are they already?)

 

[Uthman]

1 - If they want to reject her citizenship then fine, but then they should stop claiming to grant freedom of religion because they don't.

2 - They have a flawed understanding of gender equality.

 

[Al-Zaara]

1 - If they want to reject her citizenship then fine, but then they should stop claiming to grant freedom of religion because they don't.

2 - They have a flawed understanding of gender equality.

That should be the new definition of France.

 

[KAding]

1 - If they want to reject her citizenship then fine, but then they should stop claiming to grant freedom of religion because they don't.

Well, in most states these rights are granted to nationals of that state. You don't have an intrinsic right to immigrate to France, though. The French are IMHO free to set standards for immigrants, such as, for example, demands of economic self-sufficiency or a degree of social integration.

2 - They have a flawed understanding of gender equality.

They say the same about the Islamic understanding of gender equality no doubt. I would tend to agree.

 

[Malaikah]

Daniele Lochak, a law professor not involved in the case, said it was bizarre to consider that excessive submission to men was a reason not to grant citizenship. "If you follow that to its logical conclusion, it means that women whose partners beat them are also not worthy of being French," he told Le Monde.

Well said.

This is pretty shocking. I didn't realise France had become a dictatorship. This is ridiculous. I honest hope this is just a case of the media taking the story out of context or twisting, because it is just so hard to believe.

 

[Amadeus85]

I think that France has much better system of assimilation than UK for example. England accepts(at least they used to) every radical cleric, give him money,social help etc. France has new immigrant law which is much stricted than the older one.I think that France is already full of africans and asians.Its time to set up some barriers to this flood.

 

[The_Prince]

were taking over anyways, so no biggy. one day we will be banning them from doing things.

we already own the chrysler building in NYC muaahahahahahaha

 

[mediadave]

Well, there's no automatic right to french citizenship, and reading the second report...

The legal expert who reported to the Council of State said the woman's interviews with social services revealed that "she lives almost as a recluse, isolated from French society".

The report said: "She has no idea about the secular state or the right to vote. She lives in total submission to her male relatives. She seems to find this normal and the idea of challenging it has never crossed her mind."

It sounds like she lives and intends to live her life far from the french ideal, ignoring rights that the French fought hard to gain in the first place.

 

[Uthman]

Hi KAding,

You don't have an intrinsic right to immigrate to France, though. The French are IMHO free to set standards for immigrants, such as, for example, demands of economic self-sufficiency or a degree of social integration.

I have no problem with that - it makes sense. I think they really just need to clearly define how far freedom of religion goes. I understand that this right cannot be absolute - that would be stupid but they need to clearly define where exactly they are going to draw the line and then be consistent with that.

2 - They have a flawed understanding of gender equality.

They say the same about the Islamic understanding of gender equality no doubt. I would tend to agree.

I don't doubt that either but I'm not sure what you mean. Would you tend to agree with me or them?

Regards

 

[KAding]

Well said.

This is pretty shocking. I didn't realise France had become a dictatorship. This is ridiculous. I honest hope this is just a case of the media taking the story out of context or twisting, because it is just so hard to believe.

I'm confused by your disbelief. What exactly are you shocked about? That countries have certain criteria for allowing foreigners to settle and become citizens? Or that one of those criteria is a certain degree of integration and social participation?

 

[Uthman]

Hi mediadave,

Well, there's no automatic right to french citizenship, and reading the second report...

The legal expert who reported to the Council of State said the woman's interviews with social services revealed that "she lives almost as a recluse, isolated from French society".

The report said: "She has no idea about the secular state or the right to vote. She lives in total submission to her male relatives. She seems to find this normal and the idea of challenging it has never crossed her mind."

It sounds like she lives and intends to live her life far from the french ideal, ignoring rights that the French fought hard to gain in the first place.

A couple of points:

1 - The French have fought hard for the rights that they have, no doubt but imo it should be up to her whether she wishes to take advantage of them. Surely the fact that she doesn't intend to aren't justifiable grounds upon which to reject her citizenship?

2 - This particular women has a husband who is a French national and three French-born children. She should be allowed to live with them.

Regards

 

[Uthman]

I honest hope this is just a case of the media taking the story out of context or twisting, because it is just so hard to believe.

Unlikely. The BBC and the guardian are quite reliable news sources.

 

[Musaafirah]

The fact is though, that the woman is doing no harm to the French citizens. If she wants to stay at home so be it.
She should be allowed to stay though, coz her family's there..
It'd be [retty upsetting to know that she'd be extradited to her home country, for simply not 'fitting in', I'm sure there are plenty of French citizens who are unable to 'assimilate' into French Society...
Ooh la la la :muddlehea

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Are there no muslim women in france currently that wear the burkha?

 

[mediadave]

A couple of points:

1 - The French have fought hard for the rights that they have, no doubt but imo it should be up to her whether she wishes to take advantage of them. Surely the fact that she doesn't intend to aren't justifiable grounds upon which to reject her citizenship?

2 - This particular women has a husband who is a French national and three French-born children. She should be allowed to live with them.

Regards

Hey,

1- She has every right to practice her religion as she sees fit. The French have every right to deny her citizenship because of that.

2- she's living in france, and I presume will still be allowed to live in france.