free speech vs censorship

[akulion]

Truth is that Mohammed (sa) is RECOGNIZED world wide as one of the most influential people who helped the world gorw

and to defame such a person
especially a person who is now dead

shows how pathetic these people are
and those who support them are in the same league as them

PATHETIC!

 

[akulion]

Additionally lets take a look at what some of the famous historic figures have to say about him:

Gibbon in 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' 1823

The good sense of Muhammad despised the pomp of royalty. The Apostle of God submitted to the menial offices of the family; he kindled the fire; swept the floor; milked the ewes; and mended with his own hands his shoes and garments. Disdaining the penance and merit of a hermit, he observed without effort of vanity the abstemious diet of an Arab.

Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924.

I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life.

Michael Hart in 'The 100, A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons In History,' New York, 1978.

My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the secular and religious level. ...It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. ...It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history.

Napolean Bonaparte as Quoted in Cherfils, ‘Bonaparte et Islam,’ Paris, France, pp. 105, 125.

"Moses has revealed the existence of God to his nation. Jesus Christ to the Roman world, Muhammad to the old continent...
"Arabia was idolatrous when, six centuries after Jesus, Muhammad introduced the worship of the God of Abraham, of Ishmael, of Moses, and Jesus. The Ariyans and some other sects had disturbed the tranquility of the east by agitating the question of the nature of the Father, the son, and the Holy Ghost. Muhammad declared that there was none but one God who had no father, no son and that the trinity imported the idea of idolatry...

"I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform regime based on the principles of Qur'an which alone are true and which alone can lead men to happiness."

Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.

"If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam."
"I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity."

"I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today."

 

[mahdisoldier19]

Salam Alaikam

Man no such thing as any freedom for a true Muslim these days in America and thats a fact(from my point of view). Anyone in NY knows what happens when a Shiekh moolah or Imam walks down the street. People stare at him look at him like a terrorist. Thats just my experiences of what i seen and people bad mouth. And when i hear that shiekh bad mouth the govt. Boom 3 years in a federal detention center.

 

[Umu 'Isa]

here in australia a muslim man said there is nothing wrong with osama bin laden - surely thats freedom of speech but uno what happened to him. He was arrested and only God knows whats happened to him now.
Why is it double standards when it comes to muslims?

 

[mahdisoldier19]

Salam Alaikam

Well dont worry Inshallah there will be a day where everyone will be begging they were Muslim, and the muslims will be begging they were better muslims INshallah. Everyone knows what day im talking about if you dont then um its ok bro or sis heh

 

[Sabeel]

commenting on the freedom of speech... in islam people have rights.. alhamdulillah we have been prescribed the rights in all aspects of life.. but we have limits with everything.. and these limits which are ordained by islam, if u analyze, are essential so that one does not overstep into other persons rights and freedom..
the same can be applied to any freedom one wants in this world.. every freedom would have a limit and a rule to it... for eg. take another freedom.. say freedom of travel... u have your country in which u are free to travel in.. but if at any point u travel into a private or a restricted area..u are tresspassing...
i feel this is applicable to any aspect of life.. and if want to find the ultimate balance of all of it.. then it is what is prescribed by islam... since allah swt is the creator and all-knower.. his word is the best possible guide on what is good and bad...

 

[Moples]

I have to admit that my first post was intended to "test the waters". It seems to me that yall selectively support freedom of speech. The fact that many Muslims across the world are enraged by this sickens me. What they should be enraged about is the islamo-fascists and extremists decapitating schoolgirls and journalists, not a small insult to their own religion. You do realize it's because of general muslim tolerance of extremism and failure to embrace freedom that cartoons like these were published, don't yall?

I don't care if people were to publish a cartoon of my mother that I find insulting, or a caricature of Darwin doing certain acts with an ape. It's freedom of expression, and though I wouldn't agree with it, I'd defend to my death their right to do it. Meanwhile Muslims across the world seem to enjoy cartoons about Jews that are quite inflammatory, and they get upset over a cartoon of their latest prophet? Can you say hypocrisy?

Jews aren't a favored religion or race to me either. I don't support Isreal, and in fact I'm furious that they spyed on and stole technology from a country that was responsible for their very existence. But guess what? They are there, so deal with it. The best thing the Palastinians could do is start peacefully protesting in huge numbers, Ghandi style. The Isreali's aren't evil, they wouldn't fire upon a mob of people protesting. And if they did it would draw attention from the world community.

While I do feel cultures develop differently, I'm not racist. We are all human(homo sapien sapien) and there's basically no difference between us all. Science is the only thing I can come close to having anything close to "faith" in. I must admit though, I feel Western civilization, especially that of the United States, is superior to all others. So how about yall prove me wrong? Islam used to be head and shoulders above medieval Europe. Your ancestors preserved Persian, Greek and Roman knowledge, and added much of their own. They figured out that there were microscopic organisms long before the microscope. They used to be some of the most tolerant of the middle ages. Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Christendom started it's reforms in the early renaissance, Islam is in dire need of reform.

 

[mahdisoldier19]

Salam Alaikam Moples you bring great points HOWEVER,

Brother Moples forgot to mention that what you see on TV about israel isnt the truth. They actually do fire on crowds of people. It has drawn the attention of the national world. When it does the jews say its their defense against so called " Terrorism in Palestine "

Though I totally agree to do it ghandi style. But like this man once told me you may talk now about how bad the palestinians are. But lets say i come into your home im your worse enemy and i kill and rape your mother sister and kill your brothers and take your home and destroy everything your family worked for. What would you do at that possesion?

 

[renak]

Salaam

Freedom of speech is okay as long as it aint offensive

Who gets to determine what is offensive?

 

[renak]

well if someone says something like "your mother is a #%^54 #$%^#$%^" (replace symbols with really ride words" and then publishes them in a news paper

THAT is not freedom of speech - thats just plain cussing and agression

This move done by the newspapers is active agression against muslims

Perhaps they were published just test the reaction of the muslim world. If this were the case, a lot of non-muslims lost some respect for the muslims inability to handle the offensive cartoons via dialogue and education, opposed to violence.

The violent reaction to the cartoons may given some non-muslims the justification they have been looking for in regards to the Iraq War, torture scandal, etc... If a non-muslim population is led to believe that muslims cannot resolve issues without force and violence, then the same population is more likely to support stronger forms of interrogation, and more severe military tactics.

 

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

Where does your freedom end and mine begin?

To what point can you use your freedom to assail my freedom?

At what point does freedom be sacrificed for morality and decency?
Does having free speech mena you can antogonize other ?
Or does not courtesy matter anymore?

The very premise of the pictures are to incite hate and no other reason.
The paper had asked for expert advice to NOT publish the paper,but ignored it and published it anyway.

In another forum,there was a Dane saying we support Palestinian,yet palestinians are calling for their blood,my rep[ly was this..

Since you support Palestinian with money and what not does that entitle you to disrespect us?
Since you support Palestine does that mean you own us?
We are grateful but that does not mean we are totally indebted to you that such vile deeds can be forgiven for moneys sake.

The west just dont get it,Islam is LIFE.

 

[renak]

Salaam,

Where does your freedom end and mine begin?

To what point can you use your freedom to assail my freedom?

We are both afforded the same freedom. The manner in which we wish to express our opposition is what I consider to be the main factor.


At what point does freedom be sacrificed for morality and decency?
Does having free speech mena you can antogonize other ?
Or does not courtesy matter anymore?

I personally prefer moral and decent expression. However, who should be responsible for determining what is moral and decent? I think that we can only draw the line at the recognition of basic human rights, without regard to personal opinions concerning morality and values.

The very premise of the pictures are to incite hate and no other reason.
The paper had asked for expert advice to NOT publish the paper,but ignored it and published it anyway.

I agree that the cartoons were published in poor judgement. However, much of what is published by the media is done to incite anger. If we look through a newspaper on any given day, I'm sure that most of us can find something offensive.

In another forum,there was a Dane saying we support Palestinian,yet palestinians are calling for their blood,my rep[ly was this..

Since you support Palestinian with money and what not does that entitle you to disrespect us?
Since you support Palestine does that mean you own us?
We are grateful but that does not mean we are totally indebted to you that such vile deeds can be forgiven for moneys sake.

I think the Danish may have expected the Palestinians to turn the other cheek. This is not hard to do. I think that everyone has to pick their own battles. The battle over a cartoon that offended me seems fruitless. Instead, I would choose to battle over human suffering, abuses, etc...

The west just dont get it,Islam is LIFE.

I understand that Islam is LIFE to Muslims. However, many Muslims neglect to accept that other religions are LIFE to other people. I could never be convinced that Muslims incorporate their religion into their lives more than people of other religions.

In all due respect, I think the violent reaction over the tasteless Mohammed cartoons exemplified weakness, and lack of self-control.

 

[KAding]

Salaam

People fear allah we should be uniting not fighting

Hmm.

It appears to me as if Muslims have an undue obsession for unity. Unity is not necessarily a good thing. Societies that demand unity often end up stagnant and with censorship and oppression. Stagnant because divergent ideas are repressed or rejected out of hand. Oppression because unity will need to be enforced by someone, usually the state. It is unreasonable to expect everyone to agree, for example on the interpretation of the holy scriptures.

I think this is a flaw in Islamic political theory. IMHO society should be set up in such a way to deal with diversity in political and religious ideas and handle these disagreements in a peaceful manner. Insisting on an unreachable ideal of 'unity' has been one of the hallmarks of totalitarian regimes, like Communism and Fascism. It is simply not a realistic aim.

In my humble opinion anyway .

 

[KAding]

If you poke fun a Jew or a black person... you're in trouble. You're crossing the line!! But a muslim...."it's freedom of speech"

Islam is not a race, but an ideology.

 

[KAding]

here in australia a muslim man said there is nothing wrong with osama bin laden - surely thats freedom of speech but uno what happened to him. He was arrested and only God knows whats happened to him now.
Why is it double standards when it comes to muslims?

Do you have a link to that? I am also curious how they motivated the arrest.

Thanks..

 

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

to renak...

Very sad to hear your word
When you said who is to determine moral and decency,it is simple it is on each individual person,each of us know what is right and what is wrong.
in context of the caricatures,they ASKED for expert advice but still printed them.
So in short,they printed it DESPITE advice.
Are they also like you who would question the barriers of morality and decency?
Becasue tehre is no set rules for courtesy you then trangress them?

I cna understand that you as non muslim would not know th depth of hurt the caricatures did to muslim.turning the other cheek,should that not have been by the Chrsitian publisher who was NOT TO PRINT the pictures ? They did ask for advice and they were told NOT TO PRINT.

Islam is LIFE,Islam has rules from birth to death.
For you sayin it is weakness is from your perception casue you do not understand about faith.
For Muslim Islam is life.As i said the west just dont get it..

Chrisitan?catholics are able to mock their reliogn openly and even doubt their own reliogn openly ,,,this is alien to Islam.
The problem is that the Chrsitian/catholic think we muslim have weak faith as christian/catholic do..
After the World war,the west lose their respect for religion and started to abhor it openly and only accept it on holidays or sundays..
this is their culture not our.

 

[Zulkiflim]

Hmm.

It appears to me as if Muslims have an undue obsession for unity. Unity is not necessarily a good thing. Societies that demand unity often end up stagnant and with censorship and oppression. Stagnant because divergent ideas are repressed or rejected out of hand. Oppression because unity will need to be enforced by someone, usually the state. It is unreasonable to expect everyone to agree, for example on the interpretation of the holy scriptures.

I think this is a flaw in Islamic political theory. IMHO society should be set up in such a way to deal with diversity in political and religious ideas and handle these disagreements in a peaceful manner. Insisting on an unreachable ideal of 'unity' has been one of the hallmarks of totalitarian regimes, like Communism and Fascism. It is simply not a realistic aim.

In my humble opinion anyway .

It is simple,

we have ONE QURAN,ONE GOD:ALLAH,ONE UMMAH..

Unity is critical in Islam,it is the end and the beginning..

Islam is not communism nor fascism nor democracy...
Islam is the good for mankind..not for a part of mankind or for the rich or the poor..
For all of mankind

 

[HeiGou]

Where does your freedom end and mine begin?

At the point I inflict material injury on you.

To what point can you use your freedom to assail my freedom?

The second I get it and right up to the point I inflict a material injury on you.

At what point does freedom be sacrificed for morality and decency?
Does having free speech mena you can antogonize other ?
Or does not courtesy matter anymore?

It is ironic to hear Muslims talk of courtesy. This Forum does a good job, but until you stop using phrases like "kafir", "pigs and monkeys" and the like, I do not think that Muslims have any grounds for complaint.

The very premise of the pictures are to incite hate and no other reason.

That is not true. They provoked a very important political debate. The Imams who took them to the Middle East seemed determined to incite hate but even that had a useful, from their point of view, purpose.

The paper had asked for expert advice to NOT publish the paper,but ignored it and published it anyway.

Evidence?

In another forum,there was a Dane saying we support Palestinian,yet palestinians are calling for their blood,my rep[ly was this..

Since you support Palestinian with money and what not does that entitle you to disrespect us?
Since you support Palestine does that mean you own us?
We are grateful but that does not mean we are totally indebted to you that such vile deeds can be forgiven for moneys sake.

Well yes it does. It entitles the Danes to do what they like in their own country regardless even if they do not support the Palestinians with money. You plainly are not grateful. It is a typical characteristic of many Muslims, even around here, that no matter what you are not grateful. Or thankful. The West has offered a hand of friendship. Your (to generalise) response is to spit on us? You think this is going to help?

The west just dont get it,Islam is LIFE.

And what you do not get is in my own home my rules apply. Not yours.

 

[renak]

Salaam,

to renak...

Very sad to hear your word
When you said who is to determine moral and decency,it is simple it is on each individual person,each of us know what is right and what is wrong.

Unless a person is a true sociopath they do tend to know right from wrong. However, we all have a different opinion on what we believe right and wrong to be.

in context of the caricatures,they ASKED for expert advice but still printed them.

Life isn't always fair. We have to develop skills which will allow us to deal with adverse situations in life.

So in short,they printed it DESPITE advice.

There are a lot of insensitive people in this world. We need to learn how to deal with such people, as gracefully as possible.

Are they also like you who would question the barriers of morality and decency?

Your morals and mine don't have to be the same. Once I figured this out, life became much more pleasant and rewarding.

Becasue tehre is no set rules for courtesy you then trangress them?

Each person has their own motives. Again, life is not fair. People aren't always nice.

I cna understand that you as non muslim would not know th depth of hurt the caricatures did to muslim.turning the other cheek,should that not have been by the Chrsitian publisher who was NOT TO PRINT the pictures ? They did ask for advice and they were told NOT TO PRINT.

Turning the other cheek would have been best for the Christian publisher. However, since he did not, it was up to the Muslim population to do so.

Islam is LIFE,Islam has rules from birth to death.

Yes, and they are quite easy to follow. Society also have rules which need to be adhered to.

For you sayin it is weakness is from your perception casue you do not understand about faith.

Yes, I do understand faith. One does not have to practice Islam to understand faith.

For Muslim Islam is life.As i said the west just dont get it..

For the Christian Christianity is life. For the Budhist Budhism is life. For the Pagan Paganism is life. I think it is naive to assume that other religions do not equally incorporate their religious dogma into their lives.

Chrisitan?catholics are able to mock their reliogn openly and even doubt their own reliogn openly ,,,this is alien to Islam.

This may be due to the governments in countries with large muslim populations. It's my understanding that it is not an option for Muslims to leave Islam in many areas of the world. However, if a person is raised in a democracy which encourages free thought, such an action would be possible.
I do understand that doubting and mocking ones religion may be alien to some Muslims. Therefore, I excuse those Muslims in Islamic countries, which reacted in violence. However, I do not excuse the Muslims in the Western countries which reacted in violence.

The problem is that the Chrsitian/catholic think we muslim have weak faith as christian/catholic do..

Why do you assume that Catholic Christians have weaker faith than Muslims?

After the World war,the west lose their respect for religion and started to abhor it openly and only accept it on holidays or sundays..
this is their culture not our.

The Muslims that I know are less involved in religious activity than the Christians I know. However, concentrating on the outward appearance of any religion is not as meaningful as the personal relationship one has with God.

 

[blunderbus]

About the cartoons; From the western point of view it was not Muslims asking for respect, but demanding submission. Muslims were trying to force Non-Muslims in a Non-Muslim country to be bound by Islamic law. It's easy to see why most westerners think this is unacceptable. Especially when accompanied with violence and death threats.

I do however agree that some European countries are hypocritical with their holocaust denial laws.