free speech vs censorship

[Ghazi]

About the cartoons; From the western point of view it was not Muslims asking for respect, but demanding submission. Muslims were trying to force Non-Muslims in a Non-Muslim country to be bound by Islamic law. It's easy to see why most westerners think this is unacceptable. Especially when accompanied with violence and death threats.

I do however agree that some European countries are hypocritical with their holocaust denial laws.

Salaam

Really, any proof

 

[blunderbus]

Proof of what?

 

[Ghazi]

From the western point of view it was not Muslims asking for respect, but demanding submission. Muslims were trying to force Non-Muslims in a Non-Muslim country to be bound by Islamic law

 

[blunderbus]

Denmark is a Non-Muslim country, right? The publishers of the newspaper were not muslims, right? The rule against making images of Mohammed is a religious rule, right? So what is in dispute?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings Blunderbus,

Denmark is a Non-Muslim country, right? The publishers of the newspaper were not muslims, right? The rule against making images of Mohammed is a religious rule, right? So what is in dispute?

You're mistake is that you assume the outcry over the cartoons was because of the religious prohibition of drawing images of Muhammad pbuh. The reality of the matter is that the outcry was not simply over the fact that he had been depicted, but the hateful way in which he was depicted. This has nothing to do with Muslims demanding submission, it has to do with responsible excercise of freedoms in a way that will not incite hatred or malign any segment of the community, especially in a sensitive time when we need to promote understanding and mutual respect,

Regards

 

[blunderbus]

The whole thing started when a book publisher was unable to find artists willing to do illustrations (non satirical) for a book about Mohammed because of fear of violent retribution. Was this fear unjustified?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

The whole thing started when a book publisher was unable to find artists willing to do illustrations (non satirical) for a book about Mohammed because of fear of violent retribution. Was this fear unjustified?

First of all, it seems you're talking about another issue. Secondly, the issue here is a matter of respect; if artists are unwilling to take part in an activity that may offend others, that goes to their credit. But again, it has nothing to do with a desire to impose religious rules on others. It has to do with the respect and tolerance that are vital for the progression of society.

 

[Zulkiflim]

At the point I inflict material injury on you.



The second I get it and right up to the point I inflict a material injury on you.



It is ironic to hear Muslims talk of courtesy. This Forum does a good job, but until you stop using phrases like "kafir", "pigs and monkeys" and the like, I do not think that Muslims have any grounds for complaint.



That is not true. They provoked a very important political debate. The Imams who took them to the Middle East seemed determined to incite hate but even that had a useful, from their point of view, purpose.



Evidence?



Well yes it does. It entitles the Danes to do what they like in their own country regardless even if they do not support the Palestinians with money. You plainly are not grateful. It is a typical characteristic of many Muslims, even around here, that no matter what you are not grateful. Or thankful. The West has offered a hand of friendship. Your (to generalise) response is to spit on us? You think this is going to help?



And what you do not get is in my own home my rules apply. Not yours.

Salaam,,

that is very pathethic,freedom stop when you inflict some one harm?
Dont you have a mind of when to stop to be abusive and intolerant?
Or do you relish to be doing harm to others?

What are kafirs? A waord to describe non muslim,is it deragoatory,yes in your own mind..Pigs and monkeys are animals and must be read in the context of the verse.
As i say,many american whom are murdering Iraqis women and children are pigs and monkeys...is that wrong?

So to get apolitical debate going they must publish th cartoon.So in effect they must do the very act to incite thought.that is a pretty pathetic excuse dont you think.It would mena that for cops training to think about a robbery and a murder thye must then actually rob some one and kill some one.
Or perhaps since the act of punishment of thieves in Islam is cutting off the hand ,perhaps to create thought about this they should cut some one hands.

If you were to think like that then no discoveries will be discovered for all discoveries must be actually DONE,then it casue the reason to be thought out.

The fact that you ask for evidence show your ignorance in this matter and to preclude judgement just becasu of your hate towards anything Islamic.


I understand that when in the west or in you,when some one gives you money your life belong to them ..that is a western concept and is not an Islamic concept.That our soul are bouught and sold via monetary exchage.It speak much about you when you think like this.I guess only people who trully base their values and piety on the next meal on the next handout do think their life and soul is for sale.

So in your home do you not have guest or behave couteously?
Or are you saying as your soul is for sale then other are

The west just dont get us..
Inshallah they will

 

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

Ask the west,how much insult and agner does it need to evoke to casue them to think?
Ask then how much pain does it suffice for them to find thought?
Ask them how much laughter do they derive if they seek solace in the pain of others.

Inshallah,death be upon them for their direct disrespect.
May they burn in the hell fire unless they become muslim that is.

 

[Zulkiflim]

HEya

[PIE]
Expert Warnings About Cartoons Went Unheeded
By Hasan Cucuk, Copenhagen
Published: Thursday, February 02, 2006
zaman.com



Recent revelations show that the Danish Jyllands Posten newspaper consulted experts before publishing the caricatures that caused conflict between Denmark and the Islamic world.

Professor Tim Jensen, a prominent Danish theologian, said the caricatures should not be published, warning the newspaper “It will offend Muslims and only cause pointless provocation.” A lecturer at South Denmark University, Mr. Jensen summarized his answer to Zaman regarding the Jyllands Posten newspaper: “Surely, Denmark has freedom of press, but pictures of the Prophet Mohammed have never existed throughout history. Any picture or caricature to be published will offend Muslims deeply. It would be provocation in a climate where Islam and Muslims are already in the limelight. It’s like pouring gas on the fire.”

Another point Professor Jensen, a leading expert on religious history and the author of ‘Religion Guide’ to Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, noted is the depiction of the Prophet Mohammed as a terrorist. “In a climate where Islam is associated with terrorism, depicting the Prophet Mohammed with a bomb on his head is both offensive and insulting” said Jensen, underlining the involved caricatures go beyond normal caricatures or pictures. Jensen added he requested the newspaper evaluate thoroughly its responsibilities and avoid any publications that would rupture up Denmark’s relationship with Muslims.

Leading ecclesiastics of Denmark called for moderation of tensions. Copenhagen Bishop Erik Norman Svendsen condemned both the burning of a Danish flag and insulting the Prophet Mohammed via caricatures. Svendsen, calling on Danish citizens to take a cool look, said, “We should not cut dialogue with Muslims.” The Viborg Bishop said, “It is difficult for certain people among Danish citizens who do not pay enough attention to religion to realize how far they go when talking about Islam and Muslims.” Loland Faster Bishop Steen Skovsgaard said the wound caused by the caricatures will take long time to heal, adding, the dialogue should go on.[/PIE]


So ask yourself,knowing it is ILL they did it
was that wise?
Is it necessary to incit pain in other then you will fell DEMOCRATIC and FREE?

 

[snakelegs]

As i say,many american whom are murdering Iraqis women and children are pigs and monkeys...is that wrong?

yes. pigs and monkeys do not do such things.

 

[i_m_tipu]

I call them MAD

let me explain what I m just saying

mad can say anything
so it prove they have the absolute freedom of expression


now some Westerner want to have the absolute freedom of expression
so doesn't it prove they want to be MAD


the Western doing a huge business from Muslim country

but in return they disrespect our Religion so badly

Creating munafig, destroying our culture, cursing our character
list will be go on and on.

thou it(their disrespecting) doesn't matter anything to me

we know very well what is our Religion is

May Allaah help the Muslim and their tries

 

[HeiGou]

that is very pathethic,freedom stop when you inflict some one harm?
Dont you have a mind of when to stop to be abusive and intolerant?
Or do you relish to be doing harm to others?

Freedom ought to stop when you inflict some real harm on other people. What is wrong with that as an idea? People should not be abusive and intolerant (again it is interesting hearing Muslims argue this considering how abusive and intolerant the vast majority of Muslim sites and publications are) but that is not the same as passing laws to prevent them being abusive and intolerant. I think it is rude. As I have said many times, these cartoons should not have been published out of politeness, but it should not be illegal to do so.

What are kafirs? A waord to describe non muslim,is it deragoatory,yes in your own mind..Pigs and monkeys are animals and must be read in the context of the verse.

It is derogatory in the minds of the people who use such terms. I am relaxed about being called a kafir. It carries no sting because I am happy and proud of what I am. But the people who use it mean it in a nasty way. Explain the context to me of such words as pigs and monkeys?

As i say,many american whom are murdering Iraqis women and children are pigs and monkeys...is that wrong?

Yes it is. First of all you do not say those who are murdering, but only the Americans thus leaving out all those Muslims who are murdering - this is simply a statement of prejudice as the wrong is murdering, not being an American who also happens to murder. And of course they are not murdering and even if they were they still would not be pigs and monkeys.

So to get apolitical debate going they must publish th cartoon.So in effect they must do the very act to incite thought.that is a pretty pathetic excuse dont you think.It would mena that for cops training to think about a robbery and a murder thye must then actually rob some one and kill some one.

Except the police do not want to increase the number of robberies. But this debate has had many positive effects. We are all discussing Islamic law and how it should apply in the West. It is a debate we needed to have and now we have had it. There would have been better ways to conduct this debate I am sure, but this one is what happened to come along.

Or perhaps since the act of punishment of thieves in Islam is cutting off the hand ,perhaps to create thought about this they should cut some one hands.

They could. I am sure that would provoke a debate in the West if the Muslims did it in Denmark.

The fact that you ask for evidence show your ignorance in this matter and to preclude judgement just becasu of your hate towards anything Islamic.

Ignorance I plead guilty to. Hatred is childish.

I understand that when in the west or in you,when some one gives you money your life belong to them ..that is a western concept and is not an Islamic concept.

Actually it is a Muslim concept more than a Western one. When Muslims eat someone's food they support that person. When they give their word and accept hospitality they stick to it. By and large. Muslims are famous for not robbing their guests and not abusing their hosts. But Muslims in the West seem to have forgotten this.

That our soul are bouught and sold via monetary exchage.It speak much about you when you think like this.I guess only people who trully base their values and piety on the next meal on the next handout do think their life and soul is for sale.

Neat.

So in your home do you not have guest or behave couteously?
Or are you saying as your soul is for sale then other are

Actually you have that backward, do you think if you are a guest you are entitled to steal from your host, take his car, assault his daughters, and demand that he hand over his house? It is not my problem. I know how to behave to a guest and as a guest. Some Muslims in the West do not.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Ask the west,how much insult and agner does it need to evoke to casue them to think?
Ask then how much pain does it suffice for them to find thought?
Ask them how much laughter do they derive if they seek solace in the pain of others.

Inshallah,death be upon them for their direct disrespect.
May they burn in the hell fire unless they become muslim that is.

This is just charming isn't it? The only way out for Westerners appears to be converting to Islam.

Peace

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

People should not be abusive and intolerant (again it is interesting hearing Muslims argue this considering how abusive and intolerant the vast majority of Muslim sites and publications are)

Absolute nonsense.

I think it is rude.

I think it is very dangerous and is threatening to a large population, both Muslims and Non-Muslims. In such sensitive times when we should be doing all we can to spread understanding and help integrate the various segments in society, these actions destroy all such efforts and incite hatred and division.

As I have said many times, these cartoons should not have been published out of politeness, but it should not be illegal to do so.

I think it should because it poses a significant threat to the society.

Actually it is a Muslim concept more than a Western one. When Muslims eat someone's food they support that person. When they give their word and accept hospitality they stick to it. By and large. Muslims are famous for not robbing their guests and not abusing their hosts. But Muslims in the West seem to have forgotten this.

Another erroneous generalization. Some people will never learn.

Some Muslims in the West do not.

Some Christians, Jews, Agnostics, Atheists, Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists0 do not either.